agentheath - Posted - 04/05/2013:  08:35:50

Having been inspired by the quality and quantity of constructive criticism pcfive received in her threads from most of this site's best players, I've posted some videos of my playing. Hopefully I don't have to generate as much controversy as her in order to get some good advice!

Here are 3 videos I made yesterday. I didn't record a bunch of takes--I just tried to record something that, while not perfect, is emblematic of my playing on any given day. I've been playing about 5 years. I can't play very fast. Let me know what right, what's wrong, and what you think I should be working on. Thanks!

youtube.com/watch?v=a4QwjKdQEsI 

youtube.com/watch?v=bRIfOAis_EQ

youtube.com/watch?v=baeBR-BagQE

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/05/2013:  08:46:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by agentheath

 

Having been inspired by the quality and quantity of constructive criticism pcfive received in her threads from most of this site's best players, I've posted some videos of my playing. Hopefully I don't have to generate as much controversy as her in order to get some good advice!

 

Here are 3 videos I made yesterday. I didn't record a bunch of takes--I just tried to record something that, while not perfect, is emblematic of my playing on any given day. I've been playing about 5 years. I can't play very fast. Let me know what right, what's wrong, and what you think I should be working on. Thanks!

 

youtube.com/watch?v=a4QwjKdQEsI 

 

youtube.com/watch?v=bRIfOAis_EQ

 

youtube.com/watch?v=baeBR-BagQE

---

I think you are doing great. You tone is solid, your overall timing is very good and you are capturing melody in those solos you posted. I think you have all the tools to be a wonderful BG player. You seem pretty at ease with those melodic patterns, even more so than the Scruggs, judging from the video stuff.  You already know what the experienced players are going to say about speed, and you know what happened in those other 2 threads-.  If you keep honing your skills and being intent on keeping all the "T's" intact, speed will naturally come anyway. The only critique I'll post is on the Scruggs stuff. Its a little mechanical and needs some 'Scruggisfying' in terms of syncopation and feel.  Oh, and watch out for falling things while you practice..lol

Overall you are making great progress for 5 years in and are on track to be as good as you want to be.  Let speed take care of itself. 

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:03:50

I agree, I think you are making great progress and I don't have much to criticize in terms of your technique. If there is one missing ingredient, it might be that your playing is not as "fluid" as it could be, as John alludes to above. I think it would really help if you played a lot more with others. Do you attend jams or have your own band? You might want to check out the Maltby jam in Snohomish for instance. I'm going there myself next month.

Good luck to you - you've got what it takes!

L

Fathand - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:05:31

I think you are doing good. I might like your Scruggs style a little more than John. I hear some feel in it and  I think it will be easier to add more feel when you have a band backing you up giving you a "timing framework " to work in.  I hope you are practicing backup for your tunes too.

rgoad - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:08:49

Sounds great, Agent. I'll let the pros tell you specifics. All I will say is keep playing and practicing because it is obviously working for you. I liked the capo falling off. Good to know there are other mortals learning to play.

moore030 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:16:36

What's "keeping all the "T's" intact" mean???

Brett

Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:19:51

Come on!! You couldn't recover from a capo falling on in mid-break??

Just kidding! That was wonderful. Wish I was as clean as you on the melodic stuff.

gospelman97 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:22:18

Sounds great to me.  The melodic stuff was very impressive.  I thought the Scruggs playing was good too.  Seemed to me like you were really putting the feeling into that last song (after you got the capo back on).  I like the big arm wave flourish at the end.  I might have to try that.  The one thing that wasn't showcased in these videos was up the neck backup, which could give us more insight to your playing.  Keep up the great work!

Edited by - gospelman97 on 04/05/2013 09:22:57

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:37:51

I'm going to take you at your word and assume you want honest criticism and not just praise (although I have plenty of that for you: your timing and tone are very good and your melodic stuff is impressive. For five years of work I'd say you're way ahead of the curve). One of the things I look for in a banjo picker is their pull-offs. Yours are very good. You'd be surprised how many advanced players can't do a decent pull-off.

My criticism is on your Scrugg's stuff: you could spend a little more time on fleshing out the melodies, filling in the blanks, so to speak. You are outling the melody well but work on those notes that are missing.

Overall, I'd say excellent work.

j

Edited by - Joe Larson on 04/05/2013 09:41:40

stetix01 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:37:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by moore030

 

What's "keeping all the "T's" intact" mean???

 

Brett

---

I'm guessing he means keep the T on the downbeat as in TIMTIMTM

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:41:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by moore030

 

What's "keeping all the "T's" intact" mean???

 

Brett

---

"Tone", "Timing" ,"Technique" and a fourth less mentioned...."Tastefulness"....

stetix01 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:45:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by moore030

 

What's "keeping all the "T's" intact" mean???

 

Brett

---

"Tone", "Timing" ,"Technique" and a fourth less mentioned...."Tastefulness"....

---

OOps, I guessed wrong.  so sorry.

BTW, i dont have the 20 year trained ear but I think it sounds ngreat.  Love your version of Cherokee Shuffle too.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:46:35

...and let's not forget Tuning!

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:53:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

 

...and let's not forget Tuning!

---

ok,.......5 T's then......

beegee - Posted - 04/05/2013:  10:39:16

I would like to hear you mixing up the rolls a little more to fit the flow. The forward roll comes through as very mechanical to me.

5stringpicker2 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  10:44:03

Very good indeed I agree with all the comments given. One thing I noticed though, you have a very closed up picking hand I wonder if in your future picking if this will hamper your speed. I know a couple pickers in my area that have speed problems and they have the same picking technique. Keep up the good picking for I see fame and fortune in your future.

( I  )====='----<::)

agentheath - Posted - 04/05/2013:  11:14:52

Thanks for all the responses! Your kinds words are certainly appreciated, as are the criticisms. I have some follow-up questions:

Banjophobic: Thanks for taking a look at my playing. I really appreciate all the wisdom you share with us on this forum. You (and some others) mention my Scruggs breaks sounding a little "mechanical" and needing some "Scruggsification." I couldn't agree more. Is there anything specific you can recommend that I incorporate into my practicing to work on this?

Laurence: I've been trying to improve my "fluidity" a lot recently. Are there any specific exercises or things to focus on that you can think of that would help me achieve this? Also, I do get out and jam a lot with others, and I play with a couple groups around Seattle. There's no better motivation for practice than regularly playing with people who are better than me! I do get out to Maltby sometimes--I love that jam! Hopefully I'll see you there next month.

Fathand: Thanks for the kind words, and I do practice backup a lot, that's a focus of mine. My favorite things to do are to play backup behind vocals or fiddles, but, as a JD Crowe super-fan, I know there's always room for improvement there.

Gospelman97: Thanks, and I do work on up-the-neck backup, but that's currently a weak point for me.

Joe Larson: I've spent a lot of time honing my pull-offs--thanks for noticing! Although I can't do a push-off to save my life! In terms of fleshing out the melody more, what's your approach? Do you try to clearly enunciate each and every syllable?

beegee: How do you go about mixing up the rolls more? I usually just try to fit the rolls to the melody, but I am a very forward-roll type of player. I always revert to that when in doubt.

5stringpicker2: Interesting comment about my right hand. What does a more "open" hand position look like?

Thanks everyone for commenting, this is extremely helpful!

MBCrawford - Posted - 04/05/2013:  11:42:22

I think that you sound very good, and you timing and tone are solid, I like the mix that you use between Scruggs and Melodic, the only problem that I seen was the capo, i hate when that happens. Good job.

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/05/2013:  12:32:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by agentheath

 

 

Banjophobic: Thanks for taking a look at my playing. I really appreciate all the wisdom you share with us on this forum. You (and some others) mention my Scruggs breaks sounding a little "mechanical" and needing some "Scruggsification." I couldn't agree more. Is there anything specific you can recommend that I incorporate into my practicing to work on this?

 

 

---

I would look to add more standard low position fill-in patterns and try diversifying your roll patterns as you move between the chord positions. Once you get more ides going, work on your flow, as Laurence said. Most of the flow will happen when you get your syncopation happening. Scruggs rolls without syncopation  are too 'perfect sounding ( too metronomic) and or mechanical.

Let the natural flow of 3 notes over a beat do its thing, which is to push the timing of certain notes off of the top dead center of each down and up beats in the measures. This will make your playing a little 'looser' in rhythm and have better flow, drive and feel.  

gospelman97 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  12:35:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by agentheath

 

 

Banjophobic: Thanks for taking a look at my playing. I really appreciate all the wisdom you share with us on this forum. You (and some others) mention my Scruggs breaks sounding a little "mechanical" and needing some "Scruggsification." I couldn't agree more. Is there anything specific you can recommend that I incorporate into my practicing to work on this?

 

 

---

I would look to add more standard low position fill-in patterns and try diversifying your roll patterns as you move between the chord positions. Once you get more ides going, work on your flow, as Laurence said. Most of the flow will happen when you get your syncopation happening. Scruggs rolls without syncopation  are too 'perfect sounding ( too metronomic) and or mechanical.

Let the natural flow of 3 notes over a beat do its thing, which is to push the timing of certain notes off of the top dead center of each down and up beats in the measures. This will make your playing a little 'looser' in rhythm and have better flow, drive and feel.  

---

Sounds like a great LOTW series in the making John!  I know I need to work on these same things but it's difficult to get out of this kind of rut.  I would love to see a video explanation of what you are discussing here. Food for thought anyway.

Edited by - gospelman97 on 04/05/2013 12:36:32

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/05/2013:  12:38:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by gospelman97

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by agentheath

 

 

Banjophobic: Thanks for taking a look at my playing. I really appreciate all the wisdom you share with us on this forum. You (and some others) mention my Scruggs breaks sounding a little "mechanical" and needing some "Scruggsification." I couldn't agree more. Is there anything specific you can recommend that I incorporate into my practicing to work on this?

 

 

---

I would look to add more standard low position fill-in patterns and try diversifying your roll patterns as you move between the chord positions. Once you get more ides going, work on your flow, as Laurence said. Most of the flow will happen when you get your syncopation happening. Scruggs rolls without syncopation  are too 'perfect sounding ( too metronomic) and or mechanical.

Let the natural flow of 3 notes over a beat do its thing, which is to push the timing of certain notes off of the top dead center of each down and up beats in the measures. This will make your playing a little 'looser' in rhythm and have better flow, drive and feel.  

---

Sounds like a great LOTW series in the making John!  I know I need to work on these same things but it's difficult to get out of this kind of rut.  I would love to see a video explanation of what you are discussing here. Food for thought anyway.

---

Hmmm, syncopation concepts, or 'adding groove to the rolls...that would be a great topic..wheels turning....

wkdrip - Posted - 04/05/2013:  12:40:35

I like the pace at which you play. Good job.

kmwaters - Posted - 04/05/2013:  12:52:46

Very nice work. I agree with John Boulding - of course I never disagree with John Boulding. But I like your even tempo and resistance to getting in a hurry which is a dangerous trap for all of us. Keep up the good work.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 04/05/2013:  12:59:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by agentheath

 

 

Laurence: I've been trying to improve my "fluidity" a lot recently. Are there any specific exercises or things to focus on that you can think of that would help me achieve this? Also, I do get out and jam a lot with others, and I play with a couple groups around Seattle. There's no better motivation for practice than regularly playing with people who are better than me! I do get out to Maltby sometimes--I love that jam! Hopefully I'll see you there next month.

 

 

---

I don't think exercises will teach you this. Try playing along with a Scruggs record, or some player that you really admire. Try to cop their phrasing, feel and touch. When jamming, make sure you are listening to the other players (particularly the rhythm players). Try to respond to their playing, just as they are (should be) responding to you. Feel the groove. I think these are some of the last things you learn as you mature as a player. You are already good!

5 finger ninja - Posted - 04/05/2013:  13:19:02

Im impressed. I need to learn some melodic licks like those you played. I think all 3 vids were great, keep it up!

Tim13 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  13:30:50

And all this time, I thought the 5 T's were:  Time.  Turn. Twist. Throttle. Talk.

All kidding aside, I think playing along with records does wonder in the fluidity department.  You can know the notes, without knowing the phrasing of those notes, and playing along with Earl, JD, and Sonny has helped point me in the right direction.

Tim

Edited by - Tim13 on 04/05/2013 13:33:36

arnie fleischer - Posted - 04/05/2013:  13:41:17

I like how how you changed the emphasis on your second introductory lick to "Used to Be."  That you're able to feel and play that kind of thing tells me that you'll have little trouble - and a lot of fun - following John and Laurence's excellent advice about flow and syncopation.

Hankon5 - Posted - 04/05/2013:  16:22:56

I agree with Arnie....you body is put into the music which tells me you are feeling the music! Good job!

cbskibum - Posted - 04/05/2013:  22:39:12

Nice work Heath. Great thread. Great idea. Posting those videos took some eggs. I'm with you I followed pc5s thread all the way.

We are pretty lucky to have these guys.

You guys should come up to Seattle and watch Heath play Kareokeegrass. Karareokee with a fulll live bluegrass band. Get's pretty rowdy.While they do many bluegrass tunes as well, I've still never seen a better performance for, "Every time I think about you I touch myself" on the banjo!

SWCooper - Posted - 04/06/2013:  05:52:41

Love that banjo. Is that a tunneled fifth, with the fifth peg way up at the top of the peghead? I've not seen it stuck up that high before (I'm a sucker for  tunneled fifth). The neck looks wide, too. What is that thing?

Spitfire-Smith - Posted - 04/06/2013:  06:37:39

Wow. Very nice playing. Loved it! I can tell you really feel what you are playing and are not just going through the motions.

foggers - Posted - 04/06/2013:  07:02:29

Wow - good stuff. I am not a BG player (just a CH player peekin' over the fence!)  but I can see that you have a sounf grasp of a lot of the fundamental techniques, which is quite an achievement in the time you have been playing.

I think the concept of fluidity and "phrasing" is a difficult one to grasp. It is easy to spot it when it is there, and easy to tell someone they need to work on it when it is lacking. But it is more difficult to define it and make suggestions on how to improve it. The suggestions about listening to certain virtuoso players (especially the people you want to emulate) and to play as much as you can with others is absolutely sound.

The only advice I can add comes from my own experience. I am first and foremost a singer. I have realised that the way I  "phrase" my instrumental playing is fundamentally shaped by my singer's approach. Singers HAVE to phrase a song around two things, the grammatical sense of the words and the need to breathe regularly. When I am learning a new tune on an instrument, I have to think about which collections of notes make a natural phrase, i.e. where a flow of notes has a natural pause (even if there is not one written in the music or TAB), so hearing it played by others is a key source of those ideas. It does not necessarily mean that your phrasing has to fit the singer's phrasing, as that would be too boring all the way through. But  seeing your banjo part as something that weaves around the other players/singers and compliments what they are doing can be a helpful way of thinking about where a phrase sits and what notes therefore need to be emphasized. There are times when you need to be in the background in a supporting role, and times when you step into the limelight with a fill, a hook, a lead break. I think "phrasing" is about knowing which role each different section of your playing is taking, and "fluidity" is about the ease with which you play a phrase and the ease with which you move to the next phrase, which maybe requires a change of tempo/dynamics etc when moving from back-up to a lead break, for example.

It is the more artistic and interpretative part of being a musician, and whilst you are using particular techniques to achieve it (speed, note values, syncopation, pausing, double stops or whatever) the really clever bit is HOW you are using them. To use the analogy of being a visual artist, all these mechanical skills are your different tubes of colour, but phrasing, dynamics and fluidity is about WHERE on the canvas you are using them. Your playing is at an excellent technical level, and maybe it is this more expressive artistic side of being a musician that is the stuff to think about? It is difficult to judge this from these (very good) solo clips; some footage of you playing live with others would be helpful in that regard.

So that's my six ha'penny worth anyway.

agentheath - Posted - 04/06/2013:  08:27:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

I would look to add more standard low position fill-in patterns and try diversifying your roll patterns as you move between the chord positions. Once you get more ides going, work on your flow, as Laurence said. Most of the flow will happen when you get your syncopation happening. Scruggs rolls without syncopation  are too 'perfect sounding ( too metronomic) and or mechanical.

Let the natural flow of 3 notes over a beat do its thing, which is to push the timing of certain notes off of the top dead center of each down and up beats in the measures. This will make your playing a little 'looser' in rhythm and have better flow, drive and feel.  

---

Sounds like a great LOTW series in the making John!  I know I need to work on these same things but it's difficult to get out of this kind of rut.  I would love to see a video explanation of what you are discussing here. Food for thought anyway.

---

Hmmm, syncopation concepts, or 'adding groove to the rolls...that would be a great topic..wheels turning....

---

I would love to see that LOTW video too!

agentheath - Posted - 04/06/2013:  08:30:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by agentheath

 

 

Laurence: I've been trying to improve my "fluidity" a lot recently. Are there any specific exercises or things to focus on that you can think of that would help me achieve this? Also, I do get out and jam a lot with others, and I play with a couple groups around Seattle. There's no better motivation for practice than regularly playing with people who are better than me! I do get out to Maltby sometimes--I love that jam! Hopefully I'll see you there next month.

 

 

---

I don't think exercises will teach you this. Try playing along with a Scruggs record, or some player that you really admire. Try to cop their phrasing, feel and touch. When jamming, make sure you are listening to the other players (particularly the rhythm players). Try to respond to their playing, just as they are (should be) responding to you. Feel the groove. I think these are some of the last things you learn as you mature as a player. You are already good!

---

OK, I've started adding a significant amount of playing along with Earl and JD to my practice regimen, trying to emulate what they're doing note-for-note and dynamically. I haven't done this a lot in the past, so it seems hard at first, but I have a feeling it's going to pay off in the end. Listening intently at all times to the others I play with is always a a goal and a challenge sometimes, but it's something I try to focus on, so I'll keep doing that.

agentheath - Posted - 04/06/2013:  08:32:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by cbskibum



Nice work Heath. Great thread. Great idea. Posting those videos took some eggs. I'm with you I followed pc5s thread all the way.



We are pretty lucky to have these guys.



You guys should come up to Seattle and watch Heath play Kareokeegrass. Karareokee with a fulll live bluegrass band. Get's pretty rowdy.While they do many bluegrass tunes as well, I've still never seen a better performance for, "Every time I think about you I touch myself" on the banjo!

---

Thanks Keith. I like your playing on those recordings you made with Brad, Mike, and Terry. I'm looking forward to seeing your band play at Folk Life.

agentheath - Posted - 04/06/2013:  08:34:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by SWCooper

 

Love that banjo. Is that a tunneled fifth, with the fifth peg way up at the top of the peghead? I've not seen it stuck up that high before (I'm a sucker for  tunneled fifth). The neck looks wide, too. What is that thing?

---

It is a tunneled fifth. It's a Nechville and it's awesome! The fifth goes through the tunnel and the peg is the closest one on the top side of the peg-head. The one at the top (far-end) of the peg-head is the 3rd string. The neck is also wider than standard and radiused, with a wider-spaced bridge. All in all, it's a dream to play!

Edited by - agentheath on 04/06/2013 08:46:37

agentheath - Posted - 04/06/2013:  08:45:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by foggers

 

Wow - good stuff. I am not a BG player (just a CH player peekin' over the fence!)  but I can see that you have a sounf grasp of a lot of the fundamental techniques, which is quite an achievement in the time you have been playing.

I think the concept of fluidity and "phrasing" is a difficult one to grasp. It is easy to spot it when it is there, and easy to tell someone they need to work on it when it is lacking. But it is more difficult to define it and make suggestions on how to improve it. The suggestions about listening to certain virtuoso players (especially the people you want to emulate) and to play as much as you can with others is absolutely sound.

The only advice I can add comes from my own experience. I am first and foremost a singer. I have realised that the way I  "phrase" my instrumental playing is fundamentally shaped by my singer's approach. Singers HAVE to phrase a song around two things, the grammatical sense of the words and the need to breathe regularly. When I am learning a new tune on an instrument, I have to think about which collections of notes make a natural phrase, i.e. where a flow of notes has a natural pause (even if there is not one written in the music or TAB), so hearing it played by others is a key source of those ideas. It does not necessarily mean that your phrasing has to fit the singer's phrasing, as that would be too boring all the way through. But  seeing your banjo part as something that weaves around the other players/singers and compliments what they are doing can be a helpful way of thinking about where a phrase sits and what notes therefore need to be emphasized. There are times when you need to be in the background in a supporting role, and times when you step into the limelight with a fill, a hook, a lead break. I think "phrasing" is about knowing which role each different section of your playing is taking, and "fluidity" is about the ease with which you play a phrase and the ease with which you move to the next phrase, which maybe requires a change of tempo/dynamics etc when moving from back-up to a lead break, for example.

It is the more artistic and interpretative part of being a musician, and whilst you are using particular techniques to achieve it (speed, note values, syncopation, pausing, double stops or whatever) the really clever bit is HOW you are using them. To use the analogy of being a visual artist, all these mechanical skills are your different tubes of colour, but phrasing, dynamics and fluidity is about WHERE on the canvas you are using them. Your playing is at an excellent technical level, and maybe it is this more expressive artistic side of being a musician that is the stuff to think about? It is difficult to judge this from these (very good) solo clips; some footage of you playing live with others would be helpful in that regard.

So that's my six ha'penny worth anyway.

---

Thanks for the two cents. "Fluidity" is indeed a bit of a nebulous concept, but I guess you can define it the same as pornography: "you know it when you see it." It's definitely something I've wanted to hone in my playing recently, but it's a hard concept to focus on directly. You're right, in that it gets at the more musical and interpretive aspects of banjo playing as opposed to the technical. Technique is easy to work on, and necessary as a beginner because the banjo is a highly technical instrument. But the things that I most often admire in the playing of my favorite banjo players like Earl, JD, Allen Shelton, and Ben Eldridge are things like fluidity, phrasing, tastefulness, and dynamics--things that go deeper than technique alone and are more about serving the music as a whole. I suppose that these are harder skills to develop than sheer technique and come about only through playing a lot with others, and deeply dissecting the playing of the greats. This is definitely something I will continue to work on. Thanks for the advice, everyone!