I think I'm zeroing in on a first banjo at this point. (Note: I probably should have just kept all of this in one thread, but I split off the originalto this oneif anyone is interested in the entire story.) This is, however, definitely a new chapter.
First off, I paid a visit to the local banjo store this afternoon after finally contacting the proprietor at Banjo Bob'sin nearby Cedar Crest. This was the first time I've actually had a chance to touch and hear a few instruments, and all in all, it was a worthwhile experience. Bob had recently sold his only Sierra, so I was disappointed to not be able to get a chance to sample one of those, but here are a few observations I made about the experience:
1. Banjos are HEAVY. I kind of knew that, but I was surprised when I actually experienced them. Something that seems to me will take some getting used to.
2. A Deering Goodtime II is a pretty-darned good sounding instrument. And it's LIGHT. I tried one of these just as an afterthough as my backup strategy will be to get something inexpensive if I can't find something else soon. I was really surprised--and it didn't even have a tone ring.
3. The Deering Eagle II was available, and, to my ear, it sounded very much like it does on the Jens Kruger demo at the Deering website. Very clear and distinct, plenty loud, not a lot of warmth/richness. It was also an extremely nice-looking instrument. Beautifully constructed. Very nice inlay work.
4. There was also a Deering "Midnight Special" available, that was also very nice looking, but not my cup of tea either visually or tone-wise.
5. He had a couple of Bishline's: a Cimarron and a Rosemary. The Rosemary was gorgeous. Extremely fine woodworking, especially on the Rosemary, which had contrasting wood purfling on the resonator and beautiful dark back. The Cimarron was still very nice--I loved the graceful MOP inlays on the neck. The Rosemary isn't even in my ballpark right now and I wasn't really grabbed by the tone of either of them--they sounded very similar to me. I wouldn't turn either one of them down, but I think there's something about the mahogany Sierra sound (at least as I hear on the Kruger video) that I prefer. But beautiful.
6. He also had a 1984 Stelling Sunflower that he he was asking $1,900 for. It, too, was gorgeous. A beautiful dark-stained maple neck and resonator. It sounded great to me also--definitely the best one I tried, including the owner's Deering Tenbrooks with the Kruger tone ring. Although I'm pretty inarticulate about these things still, I guess I'd characterize the Stelling as "rich" but with still a lot of punch and volume. I'm mentioning this just in case this is some kind of no-brainer great deal. I don't think I'd buy it as a personal first banjo otherwise.So hoping to hear something from wiser heads on this one.
OK, real world: there are two instruments on BOH right now that seem to be getting close to my sweet spot: a high-quality instrument, used at a sub-$1K price.
One is a 2005 Deering Sierraup for $950.00. Includes a case and a special tailpiece and the seller also is offering a money-back guarantee if return shipping is paid. Those terms are very attractive--not that I doubt there's anything wrong with the banjo, but it's reassuring to have a return option.
The other is a 1998 Deering Deluxeoffered at $1K. I hadn't even been aware of the Deluxe as a model before, and thought that it was a discontinued model, but I see that it is offered at the Deering website as an upgrade to the Sierra. As far as I can tell, it's the same as the Sierra with a bit nicer inlays.
Neither of them will have the newer 06 tone ring or the 3-ply "violin maple" rim. But I'm fairly convinced by others' comments that it's not going to make a great deal of difference, especially to me. And, as someone in the other thread pointed out, at some point there will probably a great demand for the "original" Deering tone ring and rim!
If neither of these pans out, I feel a whole lot better about "settliing" for a Deering GT as a first instrument--in fact I'm think about how light and easy-to-handle that one was!
Thanks to all who have helped out with advice and comments--it's really been of great assistance so far. Keep 'em coming.
Sounds like both of those two on the hangout would suit you. I'd probably see what the best deal I could get is on either, then factor in the return policy of the Sierra.
If you have the money I would say buy the Stelling. I have an 83 Sunflower and it is simply the best banjo I have ever played. I would change nothing about it. I paid $1500 on Craig's List but had to repair the flange. The asking price of $1900 is a good start. I would offer a little less.
Tony Trischka played a similar Sunflower for many years and it is pictured on the cover of his Fiddle Tunes book.
I noticed the Sunflower on Bobs site a couple weeks ago and thought about mentioning it here, but I decided to be greedy and make sure I didn't want to buy it for myself first. At $1900 it's not an outright steal, but it's a good enough deal you would have to be very patient watching the hangout classifieds and Ebay for several months to a year to find another one that clean at that price. It's also a good enough deal I'd be surprised if someone doesn't read about here on the hangout and call Bob and buy it.
All that said though, the Stelling is a heck of a banjo to start on. You could do more than get by with a Goodtime. But on the other hand you should be able to recover your money from any one of the three on the used market if you decide the banjo isn't for you.
I noticed the Sunflower on Bobs site a couple weeks ago and thought about mentioning it here, but I decided to be greedy and make sure I didn't want to buy it for myself first. At $1900 it's not an outright steal, but it's a good enough deal you would have to be very patient watching the hangout classifieds and Ebay for several months to a year to find another one that clean at that price. It's also a good enough deal I'd be surprised if someone doesn't read about here on the hangout and call Bob and buy it.
All that said though, the Stelling is a heck of a banjo to start on. You could do more than get by with a Goodtime. But on the other hand you should be able to recover your money from any one of the three on the used market if you decide the banjo isn't for you.
Thanks for the heads. I'm aware of the "danger" of revealing stuff on public sites, but I'm way more in need of help than I am afraid of losing out on a good deal. I used to flip Porsche's back in the day and it can be nerve-wracking! On banjo's I've only been doing this a week or two and there always seem to be attractive deals of one sort or another coming up. That said, I understand that a vintage Stelling might be something that doesn't show up that often. I'm going to go back over today and see what kind of deal I might be able to make and take some pix.
He also had a 1984 Stelling Sunflower that he he was asking $1,900 for. ...I'm mentioning this just in case this is some kind of no-brainer great deal.
If you have already decided you can spend up to $1900 for ANY banjo, then I believe this model of Stelling (and Bellflower and Red Fox) for that price is a no-brainer great deal. (More typical going prices for these are $2200-$2500)
If you can get it for less than the asking price, so much the better. I'm not a good bargainer. I'm not sure I would have the nerve to offer $1650 or $1700, but it doesn't hurt to ask! Worst he can do is say no and not counter, leaving you to buy it at $1900.
Here are some photos I took of the Sunflower this afternoon. They are pretty crappy photos. Although I have a decent point and shoot camera, I haven't learned to control it. There wasn't enough ambient light to get a decent non-flash picture, but the flash just blows out the pix. Oh well.The person playing in the background is Banjo Bob Emmert, Proprietor.
After the pix I asked Bob to alternately play the Sunflower and his personal 30th-anniversay Deering Tenbrooks, with the Kruger tone ring. The two were pretty different and to me the Tenbrooks was more appealing, but the Sunflower is a nice-sounding instrument for sure. I was not blown away with the sound in same way as I am by the sound of the Sierra, but that's as played and recorded by Jens in a video, so I'm not going to judge it that way. One other thing gave me pause and it was the weight of the instrument. I mentioned that yesterday--how being a complete newb I was surprised and bothered by how heavy banjos can be and this one in particular seems to be VERY heavy. Again, I'm not going to disqualify it for that. I noticed the frets were somewhat worn, but not to the point of buzzing. Frets 1-3 were the worst, 4-5 had some wear. The neck was straight and the action seemed just about the same as the Deering.There is some mild pitting/discoloration on the metal parts--but it doesn't look major to me. It is a very pretty instrument and to my eyes in remarkably good overall condition.
I really don't like the look of the black resonator and also wonder if that affects the tone a lot? I don't think I would want this instrument to sound any mellower. Bob told me that he thought the black plastic resonator wasn't much different than a standard white one ????? Maybe I can get him to throw in a new resonator? Any suggestions?
With so many people saying that it's a good-to-great deal, I'm inclined to buy it. It seems if it just doesn't work out--I don't play, it's too heavy, whatever, I wouldn't be out much if I decided to switch horses.I found out that it is on consignment and I'm waiting to have a conversation with the owner--hopefully tonight. I hope there are no snipers here on BHO!
BTW, I asked Bob about who might be qualified to replace frets, do setups and repairs and apparently there isn't any "go-to" guy. There is a pretty high-end guitar shop in town owned by Bill Richardson--Studio Guitars . He used to work at Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto, which is one of THE guitar shops in the country. I'm sure he could handle frets if needed, but probably not set up questions, etc.If anyone here has info on ABQ banjo/bluegrass/acoustic organizations, resources, etc. I'm all ears.
One last thing. Here's the video of Jens playing the Sierra that I'm so enamored of. I can only say that the Stelling does NOT have the intense ringing sound that the Sierra does. Is the Stelling just a bad choice if this is the sound I want?
It's a black head, not resonator (although mine has the inside of the resonator finished in shiny black lacquer). I suspect it will sound better with the recommended Ludwig head. Maybe a lot better.
Other than the broken flange mine was in excellent condition with zero fret wear. The buckle rash it possessed sanded out almost perfectly. My plating polished up perfectly (had to disassemble it totally to fix the flange, so I did a really good job there). So mine was overall in better condition than the one shown. A reason to make a lower offer.
The ringing sound in that video is caused by all the banjos hanging on the walls. Totally a recording artifact. Totally, totally, totally. I suspect a Goodtime would sound similar in that room, and a REALLY good reason to put no faith in recordings. I tried banjos at the Folk Shop in Tucson in a very similar room with similar results (although not nearly as good playing).
I have weighed my Sunflower and it came in at 11.9 lb. My rather light-feeling parts banjo (with the Pass rim which is thinner) came in at 11.5 lb. So Stellings of the earliest era (1970's) are quite heavy, of that era normal, and recent ones lighter than normal. The extra weight is due to the bronze flange. Very, very few banjos have these today and I consider that feature to be a real plus (all my Gibson type zinc flanges are pulled up, one very severely).
You buy the banjo you like for it's fit and finish and quality and feel and balance and bling you like. When it's yours, set it up to sound however you want it to. Banjos are very mechanical. Just like cars. Buying a banjo by the way it sounds, is like buying the only car on the lot with the seat set to your legs, and the radio tuned to the station you like.
Porsche: My last $0.02: I am a former Deering Eagle II owner, and I've tried out both the mahogany & maple Sierras. I found the Eagle II consistently brighter and ringier than the Sierra, so I would not expect the Sierra to be ringier than the Eagle II. Since you've tried out the Eagle II, that will give you some notion of a benchmark.
Congratulations on a great buy! Take advantage of Bob's knowledge. You are very lucky to live so close to one of the very few good banjo shops in the west.
I'll be continuing my ramblings over there. I've already read through the entire blog history and there sure is a lot there. I'm going to have to take it slow and easy.
Hey, thanks to all for putting up with the endless newb musings, questions, etc. I'm real happy that I pulled the trigger and have such a really nice "starter" banjo!
Here's how it finally went down. I was actually leaning toward just scaling back and getting one of the ~$1K Deerings on BHO, since I hadn't heard anything from Banjo Bob's, who hadn't heard from the consignor. But on Saturday morning I heard that the consignor had countered on my offer. In the meantime I had gone down to Studio Guitar and gabbed with Bill Richardson, proprietor. Turns out that he and I have a lot of common friends and acquaintances from the late '60's and '70's in the Berkeley, CA area. (John Lundberg, Richard Johnston, Frank Ford and others, if anyone is familiar with that era.) Bill also worked at Gryphon Stringed Instruments for a few years and, it turns out, besides being a guitar-repair whiz, also has a fair amount of experience with banjos. His first word of warning was to make sure that the banjo wasn't one of the problematic "Ebanol" synthetic-fingerboard models. I assured him that it was wood, probably ebony and asked if would take a look at it if I decided to buy it. So when I got the call on Saturday I arranged to take the banjo "out" for a couple of hours and a checkup by Bill. He gave the banjo a good looking over and said that it was in A-1, super playing condition. He noted that the banjo had obviously been well taken care of and by someone who knew what they were doing. And, if the price were right he wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. Needless to say, that was all I needed. I headed back to the East side of the Sandia mountains where Bob's located and told him we had a deal.
Now a funny thing--Bob told me that while I was gone someone from New York who had heard about the Sunflower on BHO had called and wanted to buy it! So the warnings about getting banjo sold from under me turned out to be prophetic! But it all worked out just perfectly and I'm a happy camper for sure.
Thanks again to everybody who chimed in to help!
All the best,
STP
P.S. Now that I have it, if anyone wants to see some better pix, I'd be happy to clean it up and take some.
