alexmedkex - Posted - 03/18/2013:  13:38:32

Hi,

I want to begin by saying that I know what modes are and how they are formed. However, I find it difficult to grasp why I should even bother thinking about them?

Let's say I want to improvise over a song in the key of G major. There's a I-IV-V chord progression which would be G, C and D. So if I understand this correctly, when we come to the C chord, I know I can use the C lydian scale because lydian is the fourth mode and C is the "IV chord" in the progression. But, C lydian has the same notes as the G major scale, which I obviously can use to improvise since the song is in G major? So how does this "mode theory" even matter at all? Am I even looking at this the right way?

Thanks in advance

BanjoNikopolis - Posted - 03/18/2013:  14:53:12

My understanding of modes is more about the overall set of chords applied to a scale. I always see people say similar things to what you said about C lydian being part of the G major scale, which is obviously true. But, I don't think it's correct to say that anytime you are in the key of G, and a Cmaj chord is being played then you are in Lydian mode.

Instead, I think it might be more appropriate to say that a Cmaj chord played, by itself, along with a G scale being played over that is closer to 'Lydian' mode.

In that same vein, if you play a Cmaj chord, by itself, and then play an F scale over it, then you are in Mixolydian mode.

To explain more, If your tonal center(The chord you normally associate as the 'home' chord or the I chord) is the key of G and all the chords you are playing come from that same key(In this case, Gmaj, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim), and you are playing a G scale....regardless of starting note...you are in Ionian mode.

But if your tonal center is somewhere else and you use a G scale...you're in a different mode.

pearcemusic - Posted - 03/18/2013:  14:57:54

I'm sure you've seen some of the other threads related to this topic ... they CAN get long winded.

You are absolutely right in regard to your question. BUT there are 2 ways to describe what you are talking about.

1. Playing a G major scale over a C major chord in a "G" song DOES render a C lydian sound.

2. BUT what if you want to make the C major chord sound "bluesy" -er .... turn that Cmajor lydian into C major MIXolydian by playing an F major scale over the C chord ... it becomes "bluesy" sounding. Why? C7 is the 5 chord ... a dominant 7 chord of the key of F major so the F major scale creates that sound against the C major triad.

try it:

PLay Gmajor chord ... Gmajor scale ..... then Play Cmajor chord ... Gmajor scale ...

THEN turn that G major scale into an F major scale .... it turns the Cmajor chord into a C7 ... linearly.

just one of a hundred examples i could give of how an understanding of modes of major can help you know how to create and change sounds.

BanjoNikopolis - Posted - 03/18/2013:  15:00:38

Oh, and one final example. With the progression you talked about above:

(Just an example) If you play your progression, and use the respective scales over each chord...you are essentially playing a different mode than Ionian.

G - D major scale - Lydian

C - F major scale - Lydian

D - A major scale - Lydian again

mikey5string - Posted - 03/18/2013:  15:23:14

Or what if there were no chords. Just each musician improvising single note lines. If everyone played a G major scale, what are the chances that it would sound major most of the time? Minor? Exotic?

Improvising in a bluegrass context limits what you can do with modal playing. You have to have everyone on board. Not to say that knowing them isnt useful, you just wont find yourself thinking about a Locrian scale in "Nine Pound Hammer" too much.

alexmedkex - Posted - 03/18/2013:  16:10:10

Thank you pearce and everyone else for your great answers,

I think I am beginning to understand. So, the modes describe different "feels" that you create together with the chords, so by knowing the modes you can know how to recreate those sounds. It also helps you to know which scales to use for different chords I suppose?

But I still wonder... Pearce, you said I could change the scale from "G major" to "F major" over the "C major" chord, going from Lydian to Mixolydian mode. Does that mean that I could switch to any mode over this "C major" chord, like the Dorian mode which is the "Bb major" scale? All these scales would really fit into the music which is in the key of "G major"?

MrManners - Posted - 03/18/2013:  16:56:52

my grasp, modes were an older way of looking at what we now call scales,They were forerunners when people started trying to make sense of and'' pass on'' knowledge of what makes good music.If you get on the white piano keys every time you move one key you have the starting note of one of the modes.They do end on the same 8 note octave as a standard scale.4 of the modes still match up to a lot of fiddle music being played today .A lot of reels and jigs are said to be based on modes.I prefer to look at them as major or minor scale with accidentals it is the same picture to me.
There are certain banjo tunes called out as modal and they tend to have a flatted 7th and third and are well served by chords in the rhythm section with omitted 3rds.
Some folks think in modes instead of scales, i suppose ,which means they are not obsolete and may help to pigeon hole a certain sound however there are other ways to get to the same place. my 2 cents --Tom

pearcemusic - Posted - 03/18/2013:  17:12:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by BanjoNikopolis

Oh, and one final example. With the progression you talked about above:

(Just an example) If you play your progression, and use the respective scales over each chord...you are essentially playing a different mode than Ionian.

G - D major scale - Lydian

C - F major scale - Lydian

D - A major scale - Lydian again

 

---

hey Nick ...

a C major chord with an F major scale = a C mixolydian sound ... I think you were thinking C major chord with the already stated G major scale?

the 3 lydian tonalities you mention would make for a very non key centered overall song sound. No real 5 to 1 type of resolution.

(which is fine by me btw )

If you played:

Gmajor chord with a D major scale,

then a Bb major chord with an F major scale,

then a Db major chord with an Ab major scale,

then an E major chord with a B major scale ... and loop that set of 4 changes and scales .... that's a nice modern jazzy use of lydian mode.

pearcemusic - Posted - 03/18/2013:  17:37:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by alexmedkex

But I still wonder... Pearce, you said I could change the scale from "G major" to "F major" over the "C major" chord, going from Lydian to Mixolydian mode. Does that mean that I could switch to any mode over this "C major" chord, like the Dorian mode which is the "Bb major" scale? All these scales would really fit into the music which is in the key of "G major"?

---

Not necessarily, but sometimes. And btw, as soon as you use a modal sound that inserts a "non-key" note (the F major scale inserts a Bb) then you are technically "out of the key", but we do this all of the time ... it's where the flavor and color is in music.

1. IF you are interested in keeping the original chordal sound that is in the tune (in this case C major) then you have to pick from modal sounds that have a major triad as part of the mode (CEG). Not to confuse you but scales like melodic minor have several choices of modes with a major triad in it. G melodic minor over a C chord would render a lydian dominant sound ... or C7#11 ... it's a great jazzy sound.

 OR A C wholetone scale would render a C7#5 which is another cool sound.

2. If you did what you suggest and play C dorian over the Cmajor chord it could sound bluesy with a b3 and b7 ... BUT depending on what melodic ideas you use with that scale or note set, it could sound more like a C minor chord.

do it for yourself .... play a C and G note together. These 2 notes describe neither maj, min, 7 or maj7.

then play C dorian over that ... Cm7 sound

then play F ionian major over that ... C7 sound (or mixolydian)

then play G ionian major over it ... Cmaj7 with a #11 ... (or C lydian)

none of this has much to do with songs written in a MODE .... but with modal sounds rendered with harmonic context.

raharris - Posted - 03/18/2013:  17:54:16

You might ask Paul Certo -- he's a dulcimer player and if anyone knows modes it's a dulcimer-er . . . er . . .

Probably a lot of people here play dulcimer but I've read Paul's posts on thr Everything Dulcimer site and he knows his stuff. His handle (both here and there) is Rendesvous1840. And you might go to Everything Dulcimer and read some of the material there.

BanjoNikopolis - Posted - 03/18/2013:  18:15:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by pearcemusic

quote:

---

Originally posted by BanjoNikopolis

Oh, and one final example. With the progression you talked about above:

(Just an example) If you play your progression, and use the respective scales over each chord...you are essentially playing a different mode than Ionian.

G - D major scale - Lydian

C - F major scale - Lydian

D - A major scale - Lydian again

 

---

hey Nick ...

a C major chord with an F major scale = a C mixolydian sound ... I think you were thinking C major chord with the already stated G major scale?

the 3 lydian tonalities you mention would make for a very non key centered overall song sound. No real 5 to 1 type of resolution.

(which is fine by me btw )

If you played:

Gmajor chord with a D major scale,

then a Bb major chord with an F major scale,

then a Db major chord with an Ab major scale,

then an E major chord with a B major scale ... and loop that set of 4 changes and scales .... that's a nice modern jazzy use of lydian mode.

---

Ahh, yes that is Mixolydian.

F major chord with a C major scale is Lydian. I agree, my example might not sound great...although I haven't played/heard the scales over those chords together, so it might be an acquired taste, haha. I guess the point was exactly what you said, the tonal center of everything changes. Your example does have a nice Jazzy ring to it though! Thanks for correcting.

alexmedkex - Posted - 03/19/2013:  07:09:00

Thank you all very much for the help and explanation of the modes! It feels clearer now, and I will begin to practice them all right away. I think I might practice them by using the major scale as baseline and then learn how to modify it for every mode, and also remember the "relative root" of each mode in all the positions.

For example, I would play the G major scale starting at the fifth fret, and then learn how to modify that pattern into a G Dorian scale (F major), and then also note where the "F" is on that scale in order to use it to climb around the fretboard using the normal F major scale patterns. I would do this for every mode (no need to worry about different keys since the patterns dont change), and for different major scale patterns.

Haha, maybe it's overkill but I'm a fast learner and I am willing to spend a lot of time on it. I wonder how much I would really benefit from this though, if I want to play jazz that is...

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/19/2013:  10:11:16

Modes are also very useful for playing harmony.

You play a Cmaj scale and you want your buddy to harmonize with you in thirds. You play CDEFGABC, he plays EFGABCDE (a third above you). You're playing a C Ionian scale, he's playing an E Phrygian scale.

Got another buddy? Have him harmonize in 5ths (GABCDEFG...which is G Mixolydian).

pearcemusic - Posted - 03/19/2013:  12:10:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by alexmedkex

Thank you all very much for the help and explanation of the modes! It feels clearer now, and I will begin to practice them all right away. I think I might practice them by using the major scale as baseline and then learn how to modify it for every mode, and also remember the "relative root" of each mode in all the positions.



For example, I would play the G major scale starting at the fifth fret, and then learn how to modify that pattern into a G Dorian scale (F major), and then also note where the "F" is on that scale in order to use it to climb around the fretboard using the normal F major scale patterns. I would do this for every mode (no need to worry about different keys since the patterns dont change), and for different major scale patterns.



Haha, maybe it's overkill but I'm a fast learner and I am willing to spend a lot of time on it. I wonder how much I would really benefit from this though, if I want to play jazz that is...

---

here's one way to start ....

G modal scales Oct&3rd

alexmedkex - Posted - 03/19/2013:  13:31:42

Thank you pearce, you are a true hero

Lucky McLuckerson - Posted - 03/22/2013:  13:30:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by alexmedkex

 

Hi,

I want to begin by saying that I know what modes are and how they are formed. However, I find it difficult to grasp why I should even bother thinking about them?

Let's say I want to improvise over a song in the key of G major. There's a I-IV-V chord progression which would be G, C and D. So if I understand this correctly, when we come to the C chord, I know I can use the C lydian scale because lydian is the fourth mode and C is the "IV chord" in the progression. But, C lydian has the same notes as the G major scale, which I obviously can use to improvise since the song is in G major? So how does this "mode theory" even matter at all? Am I even looking at this the right way?

Thanks in advance

---

That is precisely the point of modal playing.  If the song is in G and it's banging around on the IV, you can bang around on C lydian scales which does two things for you.  1) It ensures you will never play a "wrong" note, and 2) it ensures you are always going to resolve to the correct root. 

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 03/22/2013:  14:24:13

A considerable amount of older music, particularly of Irish and Scottish origin is modal, not in a major or minor key. A number of fairly recent tunes that sound Celtic or old timey are also modal ( Think of the dozens (100's?) of reels and jigs that rock back and forth between Em and D, for example, or a tune that seems to be in G, but resolves out of an F chord.  

foggers - Posted - 03/29/2013:  17:29:04

The modes have their origins in european medieval church music and have  survived in the oral traditional music of most european countries including Scotland, Ireland and England. They were therefore transported to the States and the famous English folk collector Cecil Sharp was amazed to find such a living tradition of these older modes when he visited the Appalachians in 1916. His published collection of "Folk Music of the Southern Appalachians" annotates each tune and song with its mode (and how many notes are in the scale, ie pentatonic = 5 notes, hexatonic = 6 notes etc)

I am a dulcimer player so I did have to get my head around modes because it relates to the older music I like to play, and also because the instrument has a diatonic rather than chromatic fretboard, so re-tuning for different keys and modes is an essential area of dulcimer knowledge. I would second the recommendation to seek out Paul Certo's posts on the Everything Dulcimer forum for a very clear, accessible and full explanation of modes.

For me,  the main value of knowing about modes is that it helps with getting the chord progressions right for a tune or song. This is especially important in a jam session. A common example is the tune "Old Joe Clark". This is in mixolydian mode. This means it sounds  largely as if it is in a standard major scale, but the seventh is a flatted note. So a G mixolydian scale is G A B C D E F G. So if you are playing it in G on your banjo, the accompanying chord shapes will be G and F natural, NOT D (which has an F# in it which clashes with the F natural of the scale). Nothing sounds worse at a jam than people playing accompanying chords based on an assumption that the tune is a standard major or minor, when in fact it is one of the older modes such as mixolydian or dorian.

So I think there is a currency and value in knowing something about modes when it helps me to reproduce the sounds I want to make, which are these older tunes and songs.

alexmedkex - Posted - 03/30/2013:  07:04:36

Foggers,

Thanks for your post.

I am a little bewildered regarding what you said about figuring out the right chord progression. If the tune is in G Mixolydian, it's basically in C major, right? So you could just think "C major" and adjust the chords accordingly?

pearcemusic - Posted - 03/30/2013:  16:39:46

hey Alex ... as an added note.

There are a few different ways that people think of modes.

1. The most basic and obvious point of view comes from a classical or legit background approach, where the melody and chords are taken from a parent scale ...

in this case G mix is a C major note set that revolves around a G7 sounding tonal center.

The chords taken from C major: G, F, C, Am, Dm, etc all are fair territory if you are playing or writing a tune WITHIN that modal sound.

BUT we are always very used to the sound of the 5 chor ... D7 in this case containing notes outside of the Key, parent scale or note set. (a D7 has an F# so it's TECHNICALLY not IN the modal KEY).

2. Other folks ... from a Jazz background for instance ... think of modal scales as independent colors or sounds that are used outside of the context of a MODAL tune.

When we think of D dorian (Dm7) to G mix (G7) to Cmajor (Cmaj7) we KNOW that all of those chord types come from C major .... so a C major scale note set is a great place to start when improv-ing over those changes.

In jazz however ... we are interested in the tensions and colors that are possible over those chords changes.

SO we might play D minor dorian (or C major) over the Dm7 chord, then Galt (an Ab melodic minor scale starting on the 7th degree ... or the 7th MODE of Ab melodic minor) over the G7, then a C lydian modal scale (G major) over the C maj 7 chordal sound which renders a C maj 7 #11 .. a beautiful sound.

Just play that set of scales: 1. Cmajor (hear Dm) 2. Ab Melodic Minor which is an Ab major scale with a flatted 3 (hear G7) 3. G maj (hear Cmaj).

You can travel thru some interesting tensions and releases in 3 measures if you wish.

The term MODE is accepted differently depending on the circles you travel in ....

foggers - Posted - 03/31/2013:  07:59:03

I do not have a great deal of formal music education, so my  way of understanding modes is kind of homegrown, and arises from my own experiments with sound, learning from helpful discussions (like this one) and my existing abilities in being a systematic thinker. I learn best by looking for the patterns in things.

Yes Alex you are right; taking it back to the "parent" scale of C major helps you in working out the correct chords. The problem occurs in a session when others think you are playing a tune in a normal modern G major scale, so they will expect the usual chords for that scale (ie basic I, IV and V chords of G, C and D respectively). So when they hear the predicted harmonic change in the tune they may insert a D chord (e.g. if the tune is on an A note at that point) instead of an F chord.

I agree that there are many ways of thinking about modes. I think of them as a variety of scales that differ in the pattern of whole and half steps between the notes, as each mode has a distinctive pattern of intervals. I find this concept makes it easier to then translate into different keys. For example it works okay to think of G mixolydian as being really a scale of C major with the home note moved to G. But personally that does not help me much in working on a tune in C mixy or F mixy unless I do a translation of the relationship between G and C, and transfer it to the scale and key I am working on.

By knowing the pattern of intervals (whole and half steps between notes) that tells me the "palette" of notes I can draw upon for making harmonic accompaniments in a particular key and this works for most traditional songs and tunes that are unlikely to have chords such as augmented and diminished ones where the notes are modified and are not part of the scale your tune or song it is.  This concept of a "palette of notes" works fine for a simple instrument like the dulcimer, and a simple woman, like me!!

njwater - Posted - 04/03/2013:  11:35:38

Great thread... my reality is that I retain the knowledge of modes for about an hour after studying it.

Then I stumble upon a thread like this and dive in... again :)

banjoboyd - Posted - 04/22/2013:  12:09:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by alexmedkex

 

Foggers,

Thanks for your post.

I am a little bewildered regarding what you said about figuring out the right chord progression. If the tune is in G Mixolydian, it's basically in C major, right? So you could just think "C major" and adjust the chords accordingly?

---

yes and no. part of the problem with modes is that, in the process of explaining them, people relate them to keys. key is a concept tied to western common practice harmony, which is dominated by the chord relationships in the Ionian (major) and Aeolian (minor). the other modes - Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, and Mixolydian - fell out of use in harmonic music because, in comparison to Ionian and Aeolian, the harmonic cadences they contain are weak.

so, in the case of G Mixolydian...it does contain the same set of chords as C Ionian, just shifted up. but melodically they are different entities. the melodic 'core' of G Mixolydian is G and D, then B and F, then C and E. C is a (relatively) unimportant note in G Mixolydian, and I'm sure there are tunes that omit it entirely. so be careful when you say "G Mixolydian is basically C major"...because that distinction is only significant in terms of notation and transposition.

as far as figuring out chord progressions in modal tunes...well part of the attraction of modal tunes is that they're modal, meaning they are not built around chord progressions at all! harmonization of modal tunes is a totally modern practice. if you are playing old-time, i'd say just forget about chords. if you are playing bluegrass...well it's good to understand how this stuff works, but you really just need to listen to the melody to feel what chords are appropriate.