SCclawman - Posted - 01/28/2013:  08:50:47

It's time to buy new strings, and I'm looking at some new options.

elderly.com/also/accessories/i...ANGMB.htm - Aquila 7b Minstrel nylguts

From elderly:

"This set is longer (about 51") and heavier than the "Classical" set. The strings are ROUGHLY 0275, 0325, 0390, 0280w, 0275 inches in diameter, using multiple calipers measuring multiple points on multiple strings. Intended for lower tunings, not likely to survive being brought up to standard G tuning."

elderly.com/accessories/items/ANGB.htm - Aquila 1b Classical nylguts

From elderly:

"The "Classical" set is shorter (about 41") and lighter than the "Minstrel" set. The strings are ROUGHLY 0225 0270 0315 0245-0250w 0245 inches in diameter, using multiple calipers measuring multiple points on multiple strings. The 4th string in this set is wound."

I have a Morgan Monroe OB-50 and it's pretty basic. Would these strings even work on this? Obviously the first set would be tuned lower. Can this work on my banjo? I kind of want to buy both sets just to see how they work, but wanted to check here first. I believe I have a no-knot tailpiece.

I like the lower sounds and tunings that I hear on recordings by Tim O'Brien, Riley Baugus, and a lot of other recordings I've heard here and there. So, I really just want to do some experimenting and see what happens.

Any advice?

Mark Johnson - Posted - 01/28/2013:  09:12:28

I've found the wound 4th to be too much of a pain in the rear, so I buy the minstrels when I go Nylgut.  I see they also now offer a 5B set that is the Classical set but with a monofilament 4th.  That might be a nice option.

I've always had good experiences with Nylgut, but have learned a few tricks:

-pull the string as tight as you can through the post before you even start winding it.  Really, pull pull pull.  Even with that by the time you're done the post is going to be covered in turns.

-let them stretch over days.  Tune it up a ways, play, retune, let it sit.  Repeat slowly.  Any attempts to go up to pitch on day one won't go well.

-Make sure the strings don't hit any edges... some of the Asian tailpieces will cut a tensioned Nylgut over and over and over.  

The Chris Sands nylon sets get some good press here on the ol Hangout.  I'm sure someone will chime in with some recommendations on that front.  Also, I think everyone should buy a set of real gut strings at least once in their banjo life.  I've never had anything on the gourd that I liked as much as the gut strings it came with... I'm just too cheap to always replace them with gut (even though that first set lasted years).

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/28/2013:  09:22:59

Mark

What you are describing is my iea of something I'm not interested in doing.

After one disastrous set of Nylguts I tried Chris Sands Classical Strings. Now you couldn't pry me away from them with a backhoe. Better sound, and no breaking while trying to tune them up to concert - like Nylguts. Also no unwinding of the 4th string. I have used Mediums for tuning to Concert Pitch and Heavys for tuning a minor 3rd low (eBEG#B) or (g#BEG#B). replacing the Sands 5th string with a guitar 1st.

I never got the full set of Nylguts working. I broke both light strings (1st and 5th) well below concert pitch and replaced them with classical guitar strings. Neither broke at tailpiece or tuner, I was able to try the 1st as a 5th but it broke there too. The 3rd string broke in the middle about 3 weeks in to the experiment, and it wasn't long before I found the winding on the 4th string in pieces - cut through by the banjo's frets.

So by a couple months into it I only had the 2nd string and it sounded pretty dead compared to my Augustine Classical Guitar strings so off it came too.

I know other people have had much better luck than I have, but I also know other people who've had very similar experiences to mine. Strings are cheeep - even Nylguts. Try a set and if they don't work out, try some Chris Sands, and if those don't work start buying single nylon guitar strings. Two 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th in a medium high tension set should work out.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 01/28/2013 09:32:17

stevel - Posted - 01/28/2013:  10:06:48

i've had great luck with NylGuts, both the minstrel and classical gauge sets. The wound 4ths do start looking pretty crappy after a few months, but i can usually get 6+ months out of the string, regardless of how bad it looks.

if you go with the thicker minstrels, make sure the slots in your nut and or bridge are wide enough so that they don't end up pinching the strings.

i've never tried the Chris Sands, but i've heard good things.

good luck.

Mike Moss - Posted - 01/28/2013:  10:11:57

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

After one disastrous set of Nylguts I tried Chris Sands Classical Strings. 

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Just in case Mark has trouble finding them -- Sands sets are (correctly) called classic, not classical, banjo strings. Aquila got the name wrong -- it's a common mistake, but they should have corrected it by now, if they meant "fingerstyle banjo originating in the late 19th century as played by Chris Sands, Bill Ball or Fred Van Eps".

SCclawman - Posted - 01/28/2013:  11:11:06

The one problem in this whole equation is that I only own 1 banjo, and it will be that way for a long while. I wish I had another where I could experiment with some nylguts. I don't want to give up a whole week of playing just trying to stretch the strings to get them up to tune.

I'm going to go ahead and give it a try though, and see what happens.

I'm a litlte nervous that the slots in my nut and bridge won't be big enough, and I have spikes on the 5th 7th and 8th fret. Is that a deal breaker?

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 01/28/2013:  12:18:34

You can get them up to pitch much faster if you manually stretch each string by grasping them each at the centre and stretching them sideways many, many times in the process of putting them on, and when retuning them for several days afterwards. You will still have to keep fine tuning all week, but quite a bit less than if the only stretching you do is to repeatedly tune them up to pitch and then let them stretch on their own.

dbrooks - Posted - 01/28/2013:  15:50:28

I seem to have better luck with Nylguts than some others.  I use the technique described by Marc Nerenberg at stretch from the center of the string as I am installing and turning the peg. My Nylgut classics seem to stretch for 2 days and then are pretty stable. I prefer the wound 4th string.  I tested several unwound 4th strings for Aquila.  They last well, but they seemed a bit too slick for my left hand to fret cleanly in some situations. I also like the growl of the wound 4th string.  You can buy individual 4th strings separately.  I have done that in the past.

I have not tried the minstrel set, but I do think they would need larger notches in the bridge and nut.  I'll defer to others on that.

David

J-Walk - Posted - 01/28/2013:  16:09:10

quote:

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Originally posted by SCclawman

The one problem in this whole equation is that I only own 1 banjo, 

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Wow! A great player like you has only one banjo? That kind of boggles the mind.

SCclawman - Posted - 01/29/2013:  06:36:55

J-Walk,

Trust me, I wish I had more. I could probably afford another $300-$400 banjo right now, but I've got my eye on something nicer and I'm going to have to save up for it. Right now I'm at a point in life where I don't have much if any fun money to spend on instruments. (Not to mention we just replaced the entire HVAC in our house.) Most of the instrument buying that I did occurred during the ages of 18-22 when I had a good paying job while in school with little to no expenses. If only I'd of started playing banjo then.

I came across an incredible banjo a few months ago in a store in Brevard, NC - Celestial Mountain Music. It was a 100 year old slingerland pot with and new custom made neck by Randy Wood and an incredible tone ring (I don't remember what it was but it was fancy). It was right at $1000. I almost pulled the trigger on it, but didn't. I haven't stopped thinking about it since then. I've wanted to call to see if it's still available but I'm assuming it's not. Anyway, one day I'll have a few in the arsenal. I've wanted to buy Frailin's video documentaries, but right now that would just be torture. :)

Bufo Bill - Posted - 01/29/2013:  07:32:10

Hi, I run the Polymer Strings Group page here on the hangout, where there are lots of links to old threads offering advice, and pretty much every problem with Nylgut strings is dealt with somewhere there.
For myself I had no problems with Nylgut Strings but I prefer the Sands strings for tone and ease of use. Nylgut are often described as "slack" when brought up to tension, so if you love very firm strings this may be an issue.
Experimenting with strings is part of being a banjo player, and it's about enjoying the new sounds from your banjo. Sometimes not enjoying the hassle is not as important compared to the new way your music plays.

All the best from Bill. :D

SCclawman - Posted - 01/29/2013:  12:14:01

I just bought the Aquila 5b and the Chris Sands.

Thanks for the input from everyone!

dbrooks - Posted - 01/29/2013:  16:41:20

I want to thank J-Walk for calling attention to your playing, SCclawman.  You have an impressive collection of recordings on your home page.  As much as I like Nylgut strings, I can't imagine why you'd like to change your sound (except we do tend to tinker).  I do admire your playing.

David

Bill H - Posted - 01/29/2013:  16:43:14

I put my first set of nylon strings on my 117 year old Bay State banjo that has wood friction pegs. Aquilla strings I think. I was playing it within an hour. Within a day or two it stayed in tune and the sound only got better. Now the banjo is no more finicky to keep in tune than steel, maybe even less so.

Edited by - Bill H on 01/29/2013 16:44:57

5Stringtrout - Posted - 01/30/2013:  09:02:59

I have a set of Aquilla Nylgut Classical strings marked standard tension on my fretless Enoch Tradesman. I have them tuned 2 steps low and it gives me a really plunky mellow sound. When I installed them I did not know about using a bowline so I used a perfection loop which is a knot used to tie loops in fishing leaders. I change tunings but still stay with the 2 steps low intervals and do not have a problem with breakage. I have tuned them up to standard but I like the lower older sound better on a fretless.

unclescott - Posted - 01/30/2013:  10:56:41

One other thing that I am surprised that nobody has mentioned is that when you change your strings, which ever strings you buy, take a close look at your tailpiece.  Check it for any sharp edges or burr's where the strings touch the tailpiece. It only takes a few minutes and if you do find a sharp corner or edge it can be cleaned up easily.

There was a thread on this just a couple of days ago.

While you will most likely be fine, there is nothing worse that finally getting your new strings in the mail, putting them on and tightening them up, and have one of them go "SNAP".

As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Have fun with your new strings.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/30/2013:  13:37:30

And I recommend that anyone going to nylon or Nylgut start the process by getting rid of No-Knot tailpieces. I', Not talking about the brass originals, but the modern steel Asian made No-Knots that are sold under several brand names, including "Golden Gate. I don't think a human can de-burr them effectively. I never had mine cut through a nylon string, but I never use the slot either - I tie the string around the entire post.

When I put the nylguts on I had been warned they were delicate, so I took a file to the No-Knot and then finished off with some flexible plastic-backed sandpaper (it is sold for working on models - not women, but scale ships and trains etc). Still I did break a string (can't remember which one) long before I had it up to pitch. I had to go back and file the burr down even further, then do the sandpaper - 2 grades, finishing with 400.

My hands were also finished for that day. My arthritis was killing me by the end of the process. This is why I replace all No-Knots with Rickard tailpieces on banjos to be string with nylon. I plan to do the same with the one No-Knot I still have - next change of strings.

Mark Johnson - Posted - 01/30/2013:  13:46:54

Just to be clear Bill Rickard calls them No-Knots too.  store.rickardbanjos.com/tail-p...hardware/  So, ditch the junky No-Knot like Tony says above, but consider replacing it with a nice Rickard No-Knot.

john bange - Posted - 01/30/2013:  13:56:09

Deburring the tail piece is very important but not using the slot is a big cure to breakage at the t/p. The bridge slotts need resizing as does the nut.
I think the Kirschner t/p is the best...IMHO
I use the All-nylgut set that Bernunzio sells from Aquilla.
I have not had to change strings in a Long time...I have not had a string break in years
Along with the all nylon 4th...I use the cheapest fishing line I can find because of the length I need for my Vega.

CW Spook - Posted - 01/30/2013:  15:39:33

I guess I'm one of the fortunate few.  I've had Nylguts on both my Deering and my old 1928 Vega for a couple of years with nary a broken string or other problem, and am starting to use them to replace gut strings on my tackhead minstrel as they wear out.   The Nylguts do take a couple of days to stretch, I will grant you that.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/30/2013:  21:20:52

Rickards are not actually a no knot design. They are a straight post. Beautifully designed and executed however. But you do need to make a knot.  I use a simple square (reef) knot to make a small loop that fits over the posts.

Believe me, you can't use a modern No-Knot effectively without a knot - you must loop it and go around the post (not through the burr filled slots) or you are almost sure to get a string or two cut by the burrs.

unclekurty - Posted - 01/31/2013:  08:16:05

I wouldn't use any nylon strings without using a crammed no knot tailpiece. I have some old ones but the new ones work the same. I hated tying knots. Now it's really easy to change strings. I haven't tried the Sands strings. I use Savarez Cristal Corums now.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/31/2013:  13:55:25

quote:

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Originally posted by unclekurty

I wouldn't use any nylon strings without using a crammed no knot tailpiece. I have some old ones but the new ones work the same. I hated tying knots. Now it's really easy to change strings. I haven't tried the Sands strings. I use Savarez Cristal Corums now.

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Howdy,

I assume that was to be cammed. I find that the crammed ones do fine on the tests, but can't really perform when ya need 'em.

All the best,

A.C.

Mark Johnson - Posted - 01/31/2013:  14:13:20

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Rickards are not actually a no knot design. They are a straight post. 

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Sure, I just wanted to point out that Bill Rickard calls them "No Knot Tailpieces" on his website.  I was worried that someone might get confused by your saying to ditch the No Knot and go with a Rickard when all they will find on Rickard's website are ones labeled "No Knot". 

I've always wanted to try one of these reproduction cammed No-Knots, but was worried they sucked.  Thanks for the quick review, UncleKurty.