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blockader - Posted - 01/11/2013: 08:11:02
Following the recent “Crooked Tunes” thread in the other old time forum I wanted to choose something in that vein for my Tune of the Week. I also wanted to choose something fairly standard that would get a lot of participation and that I knew and enjoyed and played with folks pretty regular. So I picked what may be the least standardized of old time standards, Lost Indian aka Cherokee Shuffle.
I’m looking forward to hearing about how people in all the various regions represented on BHO play and call this tune. Around here (NE Georgia), I think “Cherokee Shuffle” is the slightly more popular name but “Lost Indian” is common enough that if someone wants to play one of the completely different tunes called “Lost Indian” (like the Eck Robertson tune) they have to specify the source and key to avoid additional/complete confusion. The BHO music archive gives 45 results for “Cherokee Shuffle” in wide variety of keys and styles and 24 results for “Lost Indian,” though some of the latter are actually examples of different melodies that also bear that name. Ed Halley, Eck Robertson, and Noble Page are some old fiddlers who played different tunes with the name “Lost Indian.”
The D major setting is the only one I have encountered amongst old time musicians and the A setting is the only one I have encountered amongst bluegrassers. It’s popular with both crowds. It is always a two part tune here, though apparently a third part is played in some locales, and the A part is usually square with the B part having an extra 2 measure phrase tacked on. One local fiddler plays both the A and B part with the extra phrase, making for 40 total measures, and calls it “Lost Cherokee.”
The Fiddlers Companion sheds some light on the history of the tune and its variations, but the multiple entries get a bit unwieldy so I’ll try and distill their essence for the sake of clarity. The most identifiable source tune seems to have come from Tommy Magness who recorded it as “Lonesome Indian” in the 30’s. Sometime after that it was adopted in the North Carolina and Virginia fiddling circles as “Lost Indian” and is apparently “known as a local Surry County, North Carolina, regional melody…” according to the Companion. The Cherokee Shuffle vein was an adaptation by Tommy Jackson, usually played in A. A previous BHO thread with some great info is located at banjohangout.org/archive/138440 and some additional tidbits can be found at chriswig.com/cds/lost%20indian...dian.html
I am not going to post BHO music archive renditions of the tune as there are SO many great ones and I don’t want to choose! Hopefully folks will join in on the thread and post their own versions but I will hit some highlights if they don’t show up. I didn’t have much luck locating any old recordings (maybe someone could hunt down the Magness original?), but here are some of my favorites via youtube:
A fine setting from Donald Zepp (imagine that!). I drew heavily from this for my own rendition: youtu.be/1h28lZFF3b8
An excellent fiddle and banjo version that is pretty much exactly how we play the tune around here: youtu.be/M3A8TglNpQc
And last but not least, an allstar jam featuring some of the modern old time greats: youtu.be/RnWGL7pWc98
On a more personal note, I live in the area that the Cherokee were forcibly and illegally removed from, and some of my own ancestors were Muscogee, the traditional enemy of the Cherokee. So whichever title is used for the tune I am always reminded of that sad history and of the current oppression and racism faced by so many modern American Indians.
So, Cherokee Shuffle/Lost Indian is likely not a very old tune, but it sure is a good one! When I first started playing old time banjo I found all the variation and alternate titles very confusing and challenging but now I can honestly say it is an aspect of the music that I find extremely appealing, though still very challenging!
Here is my own version of the tune to get the ball rolling:
SCclawman - Posted - 01/11/2013: 09:58:23
Blockader,
That was a great heart-felt write up. I loved the personal touch you added. It is indeed a sad history. I really enjoyed reading the write up, and watching/listening to your video. You played the song to perfection and I thought it was great. I definitely need to learn this, but I don't know if I'll be able to post something in the next week. This has always kind of been on my list to learn, but you've helped me push it to the top of the list.
The first time I ever heard this song was by BHO member Debbielee. This may be one of the songs that I've listened to on the hangout more than any other. Her version is a good bit slower and relaxed (for the record, I like it just as much upbeat, I just really like this relaxed version.) Here's a link to her version - LINK. It's one of the most soothing and inspiring pieces of clawhammer banjo that I've ever heard.
Thanks again for the great write upand for posting your video, and I'm looking forward to hearing some more versions of this over the course of the next week.
oldtimer - Posted - 01/11/2013: 09:58:44
I like your banjo version a lot. I have played Cherokee Shuffle on both fiddle and banjo for over 40 years. It's a great tune. There is also a related tune that is much less common called "Uncle Dan".
I learned "Uncle Dan" from Junior Marriott and I think he made it up. It is fiddled in the key of C. I prefer playing "Uncle Dan" for dances because it counts out to 32 bars, which dancer leaders usually want.
Here is a short recording of me fiddling "Uncle Dan" :
hangoutstorage.com/fiddlehango...62008.mp3
stay tooned...
Glenn Godsey
Steve Jeter - Posted - 01/11/2013: 10:07:58
Blockader, great ! You set the bar high. fantastic playing!
blockader - Posted - 01/11/2013: 10:18:31
Scclawman, i too have enjoyed debbielee's version, the relaxed pace really sets it off, i'm glad you posted it!. Shes a fellow georgian too, i played with her once at a jam in dahlonega, though she was playing bass. I'm lookin forward to hearing what you come up with, everything you do is golden.
Oldtimer, thats some great fiddlin, it is indeed very similar. We did lost indian extra measures and all for an unmatched square (or whatever its called) and they loved it.
Thanks for the kind words y'all. Keep em comin!
vrteach - Posted - 01/11/2013: 12:30:03
Wonderful tune. In our local jam we do it as Lost Indian in D and Cherokee Shuffle in A, and although the melodies are slightly different they are pretty much the same tune as we do them. I have a couple of version on my page here (as well as my personal page) but I think I'll attach an Illinois version of Lost Indian (in A) that I recorded in a campfire jam in September 2009. This was a pretty big group, I think 5 fiddles, 4 banjos, 3 guitars, one mandolin, one electronic keyboard, two sets of sticks, and a few tree frogs. This was a wonderful evening, and part of a fun music weekend that happens annually on the weekend following labor day. I believe Garry Harrison started this tune up and you can hear everyone settling into the tune. Here are a few pictures from that evening (and the night before):
Oh, and I had used this as one of the short-lived TOTWs at the fiddle hangout. There is bit more information and some fiddley versions over there.
Edited by - vrteach on 01/11/2013 12:37:35
jbalch - Posted - 01/11/2013: 12:40:43
Here is the way I approach it. Around here Lost Indian is played a little differently (in D). I play a tune that is maybe more like the bluegrass version of Cherokee Shuffle (normally done in A - but I play it in double C (or D)). So I usually call it Lost Cherokee.
Two recordings attached - one was made to demo a Bart Reiter banjo. The second was a very casual jam session at home with Jack Pearson.
Not traditional - I know - but fun...
tonyelder - Posted - 01/11/2013: 12:47:57
Not saying I'm right. But - in my understanding:
They both share the same A part, but - for me and my ears - the B part for Cherokee Shuffle is different than the B part of what I know to be Lost Indian. The difference is easy to discern. Of the 23 recording I have of both - that distinction seems to hold true. But that is not to suggest that I have all the available sources for the tune to compare.
Of the versions I do have, Lost Indian seems to be played in D while Cherokee Shuffle is most often played in A.
It seems that the B part of Lost Indian has more "variations" in the way it gets played. The B part of Cherokee Shuffle seems to be played more consistent. And, again, the A part of both seem to pretty much be the same.
I do have a few versions that are called Cherokee Shuffle played with 3 parts. The B part of Lost Indian is played as the B part in Cherokee Shuffle, but it also includes the B part of Cherokee Shuffle as a C part of the tune. (Banging and Sawing).
I like to play Bob Carlin's 3 part version in D (Banging and Sawing). But I will play it with a more of a "bluegrass" version of the A part than what is recorded on his CD. It is by far my favorite. And when I play it at some jams - it usually includes another discussion about these "things" when we are finished playing.
Great tune.
Edited by - tonyelder on 01/11/2013 12:55:37
Mark Johnson - Posted - 01/11/2013: 13:32:24
What a great tune for a TOTW. It's getting tough to pick tunes, so many of the obvious ones have been taken, and yet there are some great ones like this that have slipped through the cracks. This should prove to be fun, as I don't doubt we'll see a great turnout for people posting their unique takes on it. Thanks Blockader, great choice and great writeup.
To you guys that have already posted versions (Blockader, Glenn, Erich and John): great job, your versions are each so unique and very inspiring. I'll be recording this one this weekend for sure, you guys have me excited to play.
Califiddler - Posted - 01/11/2013: 14:15:05
Probably my favorite old-time fiddle tune to play on fiddle in a bluegrass jam. Always in the key of A in my experience in California.
Norman Blake's album The Rising Fawn String Ensemble has a great version in D as part of a fiddle tune medley. They go to the Bm (would be F#m in A) twice in each half of the A part, so both the A and B parts are crooked!
gottasmilealot - Posted - 01/11/2013: 15:27:26
Here's a quick no-edit recording of what I know as Cherokee Shuffle. Call it whatever you want, just don't call me late for dinner (which I will be if I don't post this now). Private constructive criticism welcome! Thanks!
Billygoat - Posted - 01/11/2013: 17:22:19
Ken Perlman writes in Banjo Newsletter about Cherokee Shuffle, "traceable to a recording by fiddler Tommy Jackson in the late 1930s or 40s. All the early versions were in A, but in the last 20 years or so a version in D has become increasingly popular in the old-time scene." This version, with Andrew Bond on the fiddle and myself on the banjer, is in D.
youtube.com/watch?v=2u1IOSSP-RI
JanetB - Posted - 01/11/2013: 18:15:28
Such a magnificent variety to listen to! Justin, you've certainly picked a winner for the TOTW. I tried several ways to play it and finally went with Doc Watson's fluid picking to inspire my chordal picking on this. Cherokee Shuffle sounds different to me, but I hear the similarities in some versions. I agree with Tony Elder's analysis of them.
Here's Doc Watson with Norman Blake and Tony Rice: youtube.com/watch?v=qnbOVXfh1sY
Here's my simplified take on Doc's:
Edited by - JanetB on 01/11/2013 18:17:10
RG - Posted - 01/11/2013: 19:33:16
Blockader...nice!!!
bhniko - Posted - 01/12/2013: 09:57:38
Was interesting to compare JanetB posting or the guitar version versus the banjo versions. I enjoy both the guitar and banjo
but the fiddle and banjo versions seems to be so much fun especially for those happy feet that love to clog.
John D - Posted - 01/12/2013: 10:37:44
Great TOTW and finally one I can do. Nice versions. Here's my quick take. I really lose it the 3rd time around.
cmic - Posted - 01/12/2013: 14:53:22
@blockader: I love the way you play that tune. Lilt and all, my feet want to move...Whoa!
The first time I heard this tune, it was played by Nancy Luys. You can hear it on her
MySpace page here:
myspace.com/nancysluys/music/s...-21635485
Nancy also plays with feeling, tho differently. I am always impressed by the different
ways a tune can be interpreted. And sometimes, it is hard (for me) to recognize the
name of the tune.
Cheers
JanetB - Posted - 01/12/2013: 16:06:40
This is an inspiring TOTW, Justin. I tried my Cherokee Shuffle clawhammered and slowed it down. It reminds me of the Native American Pow Wows held in this part of California with dancers and drummers of Cherokee heritage. And also of the Indians who lived in Kentucky and weren't forced out. I believe they were also Cherokees.
Tamarack - Posted - 01/13/2013: 06:10:30
A great tune that was overdue for TOTW honors. Lots of terrific versions here. It is finally getting into my head so I will eventually learn it.
camcumberland - Posted - 01/13/2013: 10:10:28
Hey folks, here's my attempt at Cherokee Shuffle.
Mark Johnson - Posted - 01/13/2013: 20:17:28
Here's a quick take I cooked up for the Thread. Inspired by scclawman it was captured on my phone... so, it's not the best quality, but it was quick and painless to create.
Chadbanjo - Posted - 01/14/2013: 08:44:24
Man, some really oustanding playing here. I can hear a similarity in all the versions here.
Wade Ward does a version that to me sounds nothing like the version here. His sounds more like a freight train high on octane.. then the thoughts of a lost indian.
youtube.com/watch?v=rGZRsfiz6qM
Mark Johnson - Posted - 01/14/2013: 09:57:34
quote:
Originally posted by Chadbanjo
Wade Ward does a version that to me sounds nothing like the version here. His sounds more like a freight train high on octane.. then the thoughts of a lost indian.
youtube.com/watch?v=rGZRsfiz6qM
That actually appears to be the result of a mislabeled record. The tune he's playing in that video is "Half Shaved"...
If you go to the Smithsonian Folkways album here you can see and hear him play it under the correct name:
folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.a...emid=2907
and again on this album, with it's full and very politically incorrect name:
folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.a...emid=3110
Edited by - Mark Johnson on 01/14/2013 10:01:35
SCclawman - Posted - 01/14/2013: 12:08:14
Mark,
I think your video turned out a lot better than mine.
That looked, and of course sounded great.
Very nice!
Chadbanjo - Posted - 01/14/2013: 15:36:32
Ah, very good then. Some tunes in these links i've been looking to. Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Johnson
quote:
Originally posted by Chadbanjo
Wade Ward does a version that to me sounds nothing like the version here. His sounds more like a freight train high on octane.. then the thoughts of a lost indian.
youtube.com/watch?v=rGZRsfiz6qM
That actually appears to be the result of a mislabeled record. The tune he's playing in that video is "Half Shaved"...
If you go to the Smithsonian Folkways album here you can see and hear him play it under the correct name:
folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.a...emid=2907
and again on this album, with it's full and very politically incorrect name:
folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.a...emid=3110
blockader - Posted - 01/16/2013: 08:31:07
Also, i forgot to mention that there is a good version of this tune at oldtimejam.com . I certainly used it extensively when learning it.
-justin
