manmademusic - Posted - 01/29/2009:  08:32:42

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I have recently learned one of these tunes, not sure which at this point and there in lies the question. These two tunes are different, yet the same.

I went to my weekly jam last night with this tune having learned it under the name "Lost Indian" and was told that Lost Indian is the bluegrass version of Cherokee Shuffle. I requested that we play the tune and so the fiddler played Cherokee Shuffle while I had Lost Indian in my head. Things went fine until we got to the middle of the tune and I realized that I was in place where no one else was. I quickly realized that the middle part had been skipped or left out and we were actually into the last part so I adapted and managed to get through it.

Today I did some research online to see how other folks play this tune. I checked out the tunes here at the BHO and found that "Cherokee Shuffle" is predominantly played as a bluegrass tune in the key of A and sometimes G. Likewise I found that "Lost Indian" is played primarily as a clawhammer tune but the tuning here varied quite a bit. Some were played in A while others were played in C and D.

On the Digital Library of the Appalachia I found only one fiddle version of "Cherokee Shuffle" and it was played in the key of A. I found several fiddle versions of "Lost Indian" played in mostly D as well as some in A and even some that were in sharps or flats. I also noted that the "C part" had been left out of nearly all these recordings.

Here is Adam Hurt playing the tune "Cherokee Shuffle" with what sounds to me like three parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G42I-Dzu-Xw

I learned this tune via this video of Donald Zepp play it with what sounds like three parts under the name "Lost Indian" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h28lZFF3b8

Are you confused yet? I know I am. I learned the tune as "Lost Indian" with three parts and then came to find out that it is considered a bluegrass tune under the name "Lost Indian". Further research into the tune shows that it is "Cherokee Shuffle" which is played more in the bluegrass circles. Furthermore, "Lost Indian" appears to only have two parts (A and B) rather than three. Likewise, "Cherokee Shuffle" appears to have only two parts (A and C) but they are different parts than that of "Lost Indian".

Well, I think I have a headache. Would anyone else like to weigh in here?





Gary
(__)=====''====::}

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/29/2009:  08:43:21

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I play Cherokee Shuffle in A with two parts. I also play it in D if that's where the fiddler plays it.

Bill

switzforge - Posted - 01/29/2009:  08:58:08

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I've been wondering the same thing. Dan Levenson has it in the festival tunes book one time as Cherokee shuffle and three times as lost indian. My wife is learning it in D and it was played at a jam last night in A (mandolin players request) So I'm not sure which version and in what key to learn it.

Will play Banjo for food, will stop playing banjo for money.

John Switzer
Beulah, Colorado
www.blackbearforge.com

drwt1 - Posted - 01/29/2009:  08:59:03

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I don't play CH, but I DO play Lost Indian...in D...and, IMHO, Cherokee Shuffle ain't Lost Indian....two completely different tunes...

rinemb - Posted - 01/29/2009:  09:06:55

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I learned it in D, from our old Western Swing days. It is one of the few tunes I adopted from my old guitar days. When I think I am hearing Lost Indian, it does take me a bit to realize it is not Cke Shuffle.

Brad

You may be man enough to take my woman, but you''ll never get my banjo.

May not the incidence of success, nor the pretense of retirement-
Lessen the want of enlightenment.

tom clunie - Posted - 01/29/2009:  09:18:31

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And I understand that someone has put all those versions together in one stew and calls it "Found Indian."

"Versions" annoy my inflexible musical muscles. I work very hard to get a tune under my belt only to find that it is too far removed from what the "jam" is doing to be useful and I am not talented/flexible/gifted enough to put together an acceptable version on the fly....yet. TC

Califiddler - Posted - 01/29/2009:  09:47:42

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I am not familiar with "Lost Indian". But as far as I know, here on the West Coast at least, "Cherokee Shuffle" is always played as a two-part tune, and it's always played in A, because it's a fiddle tune and that's where the fiddle plays it.

Norman Blake and the Rising Fawn String Ensemble recorded it on the album of the same title, as one of the tunes in a medley. They played it in D, and they went to the relative minor twice in the A part instead of once. I wonder if some of the confusion comes from people hearing that version ...

"In the fiddler''s house, all are dancers."

ZEPP - Posted - 01/29/2009:  09:52:09

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I've heard both names applied to each version, so I'm not sure there is any consensus. In my current circles, LI is a 3-part, D tune (with that pesky 10-measure C part), while CS is a two part G tune (and thus danceable to-able).

Obviously, this is one of those "all-depends-on-where-you-are" things.

Cheers,
ZEPP

ScottK - Posted - 01/29/2009:  09:58:03

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A jam I used to attend a couple years ago played Cherokee Shuffle in G. At that time I found Mike Iverson's tab and learned it in G from his tab. The group I mostly play with now started playing a three part Cherokee Shuffle in D recently, so that's the way I've been playing it lately.

Scott

drwt1 - Posted - 01/29/2009:  10:11:29

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ZEPP, I think you hit the nail on the head....around here, Lost Indian is one of the best dance tunes played.....must be a different indian that was lost....

RG - Posted - 01/29/2009:  10:18:23

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I agree with Zepp, but always enjoyed Kyle Creed's great 2 part "Lost Indian" in A...I like to play LI in D wih the 5th string tuned down to e...

RG

"I''m too drunk to taste this chicken..." The Late, Great Colonel Sanders

JohnJ - Posted - 01/29/2009:  10:40:58

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Mary Z. Cox has the tab for Cherokee Shuffle in her Vintage Banjo tab book - - Two parts - G tuning.




JJ

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

manmademusic - Posted - 01/29/2009:  18:32:05

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Ok, I think my headache is gone now but it looks like this question will never be answered with any kind of resolution. This is one of those tunes that lives in the gray area. Maybe one day future generations will once and for all combine the two songs, LI and CS and come up with one version...LICS??? Who knows. Thanks for sharing your version Zepp. I found it to be a very enjoyable experience to play but it looks like I'll have to drop part B when playing at my local jam.

Gary
(__)=====''====::}

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/29/2009:  20:24:29

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We play "Cherokee Shuffle" as a two part tune with 10 measures per part. We've played it several other ways and this sounds the best to our ears so we've pretty much standardized on it. We play it as a "G" tune. If necessary we can do it in "A" but usually ty to avoid that, just as we try to avoid playing it as an eight measure per part tune.

"Lost Indian" is a D tune but I have to admit I find it hard to remember the order or length of the parts save when we are actually playing it. The third part (which I think is close to The Cherokee Shuffle 2nd part) is 10 measures, but both other parts are eight.

The extra two measure show up in a number of pieces (like Rochester Schottische) and they can easily be omitted - making the tunes work for contradances.

I suggest learning the tune(s) whatever way you find them happening in your local area. It is easy enough to adapt them later.

I think in the "Giant Tab Bonanza" (see the Rocket Science Banjo website for information on it) I have about four versions of Cherokee Shuffle tabbed out - I'm not sure If I've done any "Lost Indian" tabs at all.

Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material

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Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 01/29/2009 21:05:23

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 01/29/2009:  20:52:08

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Would anyone like the Tune of the Week to continue?

I need volunteers - seems like a lot of folks read the threads, but getting different folks to post a tune is like pulling teeth.

I thank all who have volunteered in the past - if I don't get more volunteers by early February, I'll start asking for repeats - something I didn't want to do.

I am tired of begging - lots of you are posting, so how about helping out for the TUNA?

********************************************************************''
Visit http://www.siliconheights.com
Where you will find great prices on
computer software for those who
qualify for academic pricing!
*********************************************************************

RG - Posted - 01/29/2009:  21:39:09

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Judy - I would gladly do a "tuna" but I couldn't do one until the 1st part of March...have no means to record myself, so have to borrow my friends studio and he is out of town until the end of Feb...if that's not a problem mark me down...

BTW love your avatar, cool cat!



RG

"I''m too drunk to taste this chicken..." The Late, Great Colonel Sanders

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Edited by - RG on 01/30/2009 02:00:32

Clawdan - Posted - 01/30/2009:  07:55:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by manmademusic

Ok, I think my headache is gone now but it looks like this question will never be answered with any kind of resolution. This is one of those tunes that lives in the gray area. Maybe one day future generations will once and for all combine the two songs, LI and CS and come up with one version...LICS??? Who knows. Thanks for sharing your version Zepp. I found it to be a very enjoyable experience to play but it looks like I'll have to drop part B when playing at my local jam.

Gary
(__)=====''====::}

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HA, whenever someone says let's play this tune in particular, I figure it is going to be inn the key we are already in (since no one would make the banjo and fiddle players retune for just one tune...) and then ask them to play their "version" so I know which one they picked.

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Get started right with Dan''s Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications)

oldtimer - Posted - 01/30/2009:  09:31:10

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There is a very nice C tune that is obviously an off-spring of Cherokee Shuffle called "Uncle Dan"...by contest fiddler Junior Marriott.

I play for dances and Cherokee Shuffle doesn't count out to the preferred 32 bars. I have been playing "Uncle Dan" instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sfvPrbCViM

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

Clawdan - Posted - 01/30/2009:  12:25:57

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Then there is "Ed Haley's Lost Indian". 3 parts in AEac# on the fiddle.

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Get started right with Dan''s Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications)

mgoers - Posted - 01/30/2009:  13:10:10

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In the way I play these two tunes, Lost Indian plays the same melody low and high, whereas Cherokee Shuffle has a distinctly different melody for the B part. But, there are many different versions of Lost Indian. Ed Haley's is pretty cool!

When you want genuine music -- music that will come right home to you like a bad quarter, suffuse your system like strychnine whisky, go right through you like Brandreth''s pills, ramify your whole constitution like the measles, and break out on your hide like the pin-feather pimples on a picked goose, -- when you want all this, just smash your piano, and invoke the glory-beaming banjo!
- Mark Twain,"Enthusiastic Eloquence," San Francisco Dramatic Chronicle, 23 June 1865

Couchie - Posted - 01/30/2009:  14:00:59

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IMHO a lot of people confuse Lost Indian with Lonesome Indian. Two very different tunes.

Don.

O==''=(::}

http://www.doncouchie.com

Couchie - Posted - 01/30/2009:  14:02:32

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But hey, I'm just an Indian so what do I know?

Don.

O==''=(::}

http://www.doncouchie.com

Couchie - Posted - 01/30/2009:  14:03:18

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Don.

O==''=(::}

http://www.doncouchie.com

Andy Bing - Posted - 01/30/2009:  18:48:31

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Here's how I tell them apart. I learned Lost Indian from the Kenny Baker record. Kenny fiddles it in D and uses only the D, A and Bm chords (I, V and IVm). It has two parts and the chord progression is the same for each part but the melody differs (low A part, high B part). Cherokee is in A and adds the IV (D) to the I, V and VIm (A, E, F#m). Around here (NY's Hudson Valley region), I've only heard Cherokee with two parts. The chord progressions for the parts are not the same. I like to play V-V-I in place of the IV-V-I that you sometimes hear in Cherokee Shuffle.

Andy B

banjothumper5 - Posted - 01/30/2009:  21:52:38

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Lonesome Indian was mentioned. Lonesome & Lost Indian that I have heard is the same song (I`m not saying there isn`t another song called by Lost Or Lonesome). Neither Lost or Lonesome Indian (the one I know at least) or Cherokee Shuffle is old time ( at least in age, not music style) music songs. Tommy Magness, a great fiddler from the 1940`s who fiddled for Roy Acuff, is credited with actually writing Lonesome Indian (this is the same song most people call Lost Indian now) and as far as I know his recording with Roy Acuff`s Smoky Mountain Boys from 1949 (Columbia 20560) is the earliest recording of the song. Tommy Jackson is (as far as I know) credited with writing Cherokee Shuffle, recorded sometime in the 1950`s for the firts time. Lonesome (or Lost) Indian is usually a D tune as a 1 part song, repeating the 1 part 2 times in natural D position, then 2 times one octave higher. Cherokee Shuffle is Lonesome (or Lost) Indian as an A part, then a B part (written (or added) by Tommy Jackson). Usually played in A I believe. Now to make this a little more interesting, I like to play these in open C on 5-string banjo and figured out 1 day while playing Lonesome Indian I wound up playing Colored Aristocracy, which is very close to Lonesome Indian & Cherokee Shuffle. Hmmmmm

Allen

Thor - Posted - 01/31/2009:  04:45:14

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To add to Allen's post... and this being the "Old-Time" forum, I assume you guys are familiar with the fiddler's companion web site... seems like pretty good info there:

quote:

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CHEROKEE SHUFFLE. Old#8209;Time, Bluegrass; Breakdown. USA. A Major (Phillips) or D Major. Standard or ADae tuning. AAB (Brody): AABB (Phillips/1989): AABB' (Phillips/1994): AABC (Kuntz). Banjo player Howard Bursen, fiddler Kerry Blech and others, identify the tune as a West Coast version of "Lonesome Indian," and that it was derived from fiddler Tommy Magness who recorded the “Indian” tune in the 1930’s. Tommy Jackson is generally credited with transforming Magness’s “Lonesome Indian” (in the key of ‘D’) into “Cherokee Shuffle” (in the key of ‘A’). Jackson also added a distinctive second part. The Magness tune also became known as “Lost Indian” subsequently, says Kerry Blech, especially among older fiddlers in North Carolina and Virginia—“Some of these folks even took Tommy Jackson's addition and stuck it onto the Magness tune, after transposing, of course.” To add to the confusion between the two tunes, “Cherokee Shuffle” is also sometimes played in the key of ‘D’, although the ‘A’ version seems more common. Regarding the form of the tune, there appears to be two versions of “Cherokee Shuffle” in current circulation, one “square” (with the ‘A’ and ‘B’ parts the same length) and one not. Along with "Lonesome Indian" (or "Lost Indian [3]" as it is sometimes known), the melody "Colored Aristocracy" bears some resemblance to "Cherokee Shuffle." Sources for notated versions: Old Reliable String Band [Brody]; Liz Slade (Yorktown, New York) [Kuntz]. Brody (Fiddler’s Fakebook), 1983; pg. 65. Kuntz, Private Collection. Phillips (Fiddlecase Tunebook), 1989; pg. 9. Phillips (Traditional American Fiddle Tunes), Vol. 1, 1994; pg. 47. Adelphi AD 2004, Delaware Water Gap#8209; "String Band Music." Folk Legacy FSI-74, Howard Bursen - "Cider in the Kitchen" (1980). Folkways FA 2475, "Old Reliable String Band." Front Hall Records 05, Fennigs All Stars#8209; "Saturday Night in the Provinces." Global Village Records C#8209;302 #8209; Snakelips #8209; "New York City's 1st Annual String Band Contest #8209; 1984." Rounder 0122, Norman Blake#8209; "The Rising Fawn String Ensemble."

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...or maybe this just adds to the confusion.

banjothumper5 - Posted - 01/31/2009:  14:44:13

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Hey Thor - - - I never saw what you posted before, but it`s all pretty much the same thing I said. Guess I got ESP!!! If anyone has any recordings of Tommy Magness (besides with Roy Acuff, I have all of that stuff) I`d sure be interested in getting them.

Allen

Couchie - Posted - 01/31/2009:  15:23:11

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I have only the Roy Acuff material on a tape somewhere that my dear departed friend Bob Ryckman recorded for me. He had a lot of Tommy Magness with Roy Acuff 78's that he collected a long time ago. They are a treasure to be sure.

Don.

O==''=(::}

http://www.doncouchie.com

banjothumper5 - Posted - 01/31/2009:  16:02:32

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I know Tommy Magness recorded a little on his own, I think after he quit Roy Acuff, but have never turned up any of this stuff. He may have recorded with some other band too. Seems like he is mostly forgotten, it`s pretty hard to find any information about him.

Allen

Couchie - Posted - 01/31/2009:  16:05:47

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He's tops in my book, I've heard that a lot of good fiddlers nowadays give him a lot of credit as being big influence on their style.

Don.

O==''=(::}

http://www.doncouchie.com

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 01/31/2009:  18:28:21

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I learneds LI as a D tune in 2 parts. Someone at a local jam asked about the connection to CS, and I believe the answere was that the 2 parts in CS were the same melody played in different octaves, whereas in LI the 2 parts are distinctly different. As local names often come from "whatever version we first learned hereabouts", this may never be completrely resolved. I don't know a third part to either tune, and never heard CS played in jams here. (Cleveland , Ohio) I learned LI on dulcimer, though I played guitar on it if that was what I had handy at jams. I don't recall either song at the few Bluegrass jams I went to, it was mostly Old Time for me. Do we have the two firmly mixed now?
Paul

"A master banjo player isn''t the one who can play the most notes. It''s the one who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=128303

BrendanD - Posted - 02/01/2009:  18:25:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by tom clunie

And I understand that someone has put all those versions together in one stew and calls it "Found Indian."

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Well, that ain't quite right. Mark Simos came up with a new tune in C during a session I was in with the Cliffhangers some years ago, and it had some bits that were reminiscent of one of the many tunes called "Lost Indian", so Rusty Neithammer dubbed it "Found Indian". We recorded it on Mark and Friends' "Clifftop Notes, Vol. 2 - Big Ears"; you can listen to a bit of it here (track 9):
http://www.5-string.com/5SP05006.html

(The Banjo Newsletter also published my tab for "Found Indian" in their Feb. 2008 issue, for anyone who's interested.) But it's definitely not a conglomerate of versions of "Lost Indian"! In fact, none of it is actually derived from any "Lost Indian"; it just has some of that feel, perhaps.

quote:

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"Versions" annoy my inflexible musical muscles. I work very hard to get a tune under my belt only to find that it is too far removed from what the "jam" is doing to be useful and I am not talented/flexible/gifted enough to put together an acceptable version on the fly....yet. TC

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I struggled with this problem for some time when I was first learning to play years ago (not that anyone ever stops learning!). It just takes time - and a LOT of listening and playing - to gradually learn to play by ear, and adapt what you play to the fiddler(s) you're playing with, and their unique version of a tune. But for me, this is now the best and most exciting and creative part of playing banjo: listening to and supporting what that particular fiddler is playing. Just keep at it, and play with others as much as you can, and you'll make progress!

Brendan

"Many thing un-understandable a chicken-hearted seems slim usually."
- from a Japanese shopping bag (printed in English)

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Edited by - BrendanD on 02/01/2009 18:29:18

BrendanD - Posted - 02/01/2009:  18:46:08

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Just to add more confusion to the subject, the number of unrelated and semi-related tunes (many in AEAC# tuning on the fiddle) called "Lost Indian" probably numbers well into the double digits. But I concur that the particular "Lost Indian" being discussed is essentially the "Lonesome Indian" from Tommy Magness. (Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Tommy Magness's version was derived from an older traditional tune, though I certainly don't know that for a fact.)

Brendan

"Many thing un-understandable a chicken-hearted seems slim usually."
- from a Japanese shopping bag (printed in English)

banjothumper5 - Posted - 02/01/2009:  19:34:04

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Hi Brendan---I`d say you`re right about Tommy Magness version being derived from an older tune, I think nearly all instrumentals are. I don`t think hardly anyone "writes" an instrumental. They just happen. There must have been only 1 fiddle tune hundreds of years ago and all the ones we have now "evolved" from that 1 tune by making mistakes, trying an easier way to play the song etc. I just think that`s sort of a fun "theory" to think about.

Allen

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/01/2009:  21:09:28

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I have a group of Tommy Magness recordings. I believe they are L.O.C. They sound like field recordings to me.

Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material

banjothumper5 - Posted - 02/02/2009:  16:05:18

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There are some home recordings floating around made at Roy Acuff`s house with Bashful Brother Oswald backing him on guitar. Bet that may be what you heard.

Allen