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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/251611
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mike gregory - Posted - 12/15/2012: 08:23:05
And not over on the thread where people are grieving for the slaughtered children.
As Figmo suggested over on THAT thread, a gun debate will get that topic locked.
I'm FOR everybody who wants guns to have as many as they want, and for which they will accept full responsibility.
I'm AGAINST people shooting other people, either from ignorant handling of the firearms, moments of temporary rage, or well-planned murders.
Texasbanjo - Posted - 12/15/2012: 08:27:28
jason999 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 08:33:06
I'll start off, Mike. It's a shame that someone would post or repost a photo that mocks the term, "God Bless America".
BTW, I realize that you are likely just carrying it over from the other thread.
Edited by - jason999 on 12/15/2012 08:33:46
figmo59 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 08:34:46
Personaly...i.bahleave..
That all tha meadeeah..coverage...will..only
Fule tha next....attack..
Just wait...till...one of these duranged folks...figger out...just how much...more...harm can be ahflicted..whid common poisons..
Or...explosieve..n..incendry...devices....
Now just wrap yer ...Brain...round..that......
Edited by - figmo59 on 12/15/2012 08:35:37
RWJones1970 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 09:14:20
I have been around guns all my life. In the United States Marine Corps and as an armed nuclear security officer. In both jobs, the weapons are used to protect the American public. I hear both sides of the argument and both sides make good points. It is heartwrenching to hear the many stories that each side offers. However, I will stand with the founding fathers that free American citizens have the right to bear arms to protect our ourselves, loved ones and our property. From what I have seen, the bad guys always have access to the guns. When someone breaks down your bedroom door in the middle of the night you will wish you had one. We live in a wicked imperfect world where evil dwells so own one and do your best and even then some to handle them responsibly.
Buddur - Posted - 12/15/2012: 09:20:34
Lets not forget about those who are unfortunately killed by disregard of simple gun safety rules.
sharonherald.com/local/x133235...r-old-son
Guns don't kill people...dumb a$$es do!
steve davis - Posted - 12/15/2012: 09:30:25
The guns were in the house(as I understood early reports) and the shooter's bro said he had "issues".
If he hadn't used guns,he'd have figured out some kind of plan B,I'm sure.
fivebranch - Posted - 12/15/2012: 09:37:42
If we insist on a gun argument lets do it without emotional fever but with logic. It seems that to many times we humans make decisions with our emotions that turn out to be not the best. First and far most I believe in our Contitution but at the time of it's inception I don't think I forefathers envision auto or semi auto weapons nor did they comprehend mental issues. Logic dictates that you don't let a person with mental issues handle weapons or own weapons or have easy access to said weapons. What do we do? That's the argument.
raharris - Posted - 12/15/2012: 09:39:50
West Germany hasn't existed in over 20 years so these figures might be a bit dated. And it's slightly unfair to compare Isreal, the popularion of which is roughly comprable to that of Bergen County NJ, with the entire population of the US. Those quibbles notwithstanding the propositon suggested by the photo is a valid one.
I'm with Texas on this -- let's not spend time here in this venue arguing the point, but instead bow our heads in silent comapssion for and empathy with the the citizens of Newtown CT, Paterson NJ, San Jaun PR, Portland OR and everywhere that violence shatters peace.
banjaboy - Posted - 12/15/2012: 10:21:44
As an ex pat Brit Canadian who is also an avid gun owner both long gun and hand guns. Here, in Canada we have to register our handguns [called restricted up here] we first have to pass a criminal records check, we are checked out by our RCMP [Royal Canadian Mounted Police] if we pass that check we can then buy a handgun. That handgun can ONLY be discharged at a shooting range that is designated on our restricted permit. That firearm has to be transported only to the range that is designated on my licence or to a registered gunsmith. If I am pulled over by the cops, my ownership of firearms comes up when my licence place [tag to you guys lol] is checked. If the cop askes to see my handguns they must be trigger locked, unloaded and in a locked opaque case in plain sight. If any of these things are not done I am subject to a possible one year in jail for first offence. I must be on a "direct route to the designated range" Long guns are much easier to get and transport but if it looks like a black gun, some of these types are restricted or prohibited. Thats it up here. as for you guys south of the 49th. I envy and respect your Second Amendment and you should defend it with all vigour. I CANNOT under any circumstances carry, concealed or not a handgun unless I'm a politician, a judge or in threat of my life. This kind of carry permit is virtually impossible to get for all practical purposes.
Now when my handguns are at home they must be in a gun safe or a "secure location" millions of $$$$ have been given to lawyers here to establish what "secure location" is. I have a Remington 860 tactical 12 guage I keep for home defense even though if I ever shot it at an intruder I would have a hell of a job establishing I used it in an "equal force" scenario, we have no castle laws here. The issue with this tragic school shooting is that the guns were the kid's mothers guns, she is the one to answer why she left these out where her underage kid could get them and use them. AS she is dead we will never knowbut the anti gun lobby will be all over this. We do it to ourselves sometimes. Anyway guys and gals, my heart aches for those kids and families but in this case its a storage issue in my view. Please, dont be enraged or offended by my post. Defend your Second ammendment rights, I certainly envy them and would defend them if we had them here.
Lumpy - Posted - 12/15/2012: 10:40:20
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin
A Brief Gun Control History
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929! to 1953, about 20,000,000 dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1..5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56,000,000!!
The school was a gun free zone. How did that help prevent a mentally ill person from doing his dirty deed? Expand that to a so-called gun free zone for the US. All citizens are forced to turn in their guns. Does a rational person really think the criminals will follow that request? We'll end up with unarmed law-abiding citizens being helpless against criminals who still buy black market guns out of a car trunk . The second amendment was written to protect citizens against a corrupt government like those above. Removal of guns ( and freedoms) from citizens is the first step for dictators to enslave those citizens. I don't want to live in such a country.
Edthebanjo - Posted - 12/15/2012: 10:42:41
I'd say that the statistics speak for themselves. Not allowing guns means fewer people die. Simple as.
figmo59 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 10:50:30
Mebee...all tha worlds...govmits...would be willin ta lead by..
Eggsample...
N..give up all...their guns...n...weapons....
What are those chances...?
minstrelmike - Posted - 12/15/2012: 10:53:55
Texasbanjo - Posted - 12/15/2012: 10:54:16
We've already had to hide a post and several quoting it.
Please, people, it's already getting to the locking point. State your opinions, but don't flame someone else if he or she doesn't believe as you do.
Edited by - Texasbanjo on 12/15/2012 10:58:44
steve davis - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:04:27
You can't legislate away someone like that.
Crazy people are going to do crazy things from time to time.
minstrelmike - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:05:38
Texabanjo, It's already a political subject and has been from day one on all the various threads.
Is there a new rule saying politics is allowed UNTIL IT BECOMES CONTENTIOUS?
banjaboy - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:06:25
Again, if I may,,,,its not guns, its who is using them, just like drunk driving, a drunk shouldn't have a car or a licence and someone who is a nutbar shouldn't get guns......but they do, the question is how do we prevent nutbars from getting access to firearms without impinging on the rights of law abiding citizens. Here in Canada we proved that .002 % thats tenth of 1% of all firearms homicides [including suicide] were done with registered firearms. I dont know what the answer is but taking firearms away from law abiding citizens is NOT the answer and never will be.
Dr. Jug - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:08:40
There's supposed to be tight controls on gun ownership here in the UK, but I looked after one for a few years and handed two others in, including a semi-automatic, when my father died. It seems to me that when folks who have no connections with the criminal world have easy access to guns and a little ammo, making them illegal doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Now the authorities in Scotland propose a licence for airguns. If we let them get away with that, what will be next?
Texasbanjo - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:17:14
Seems like everything is black and white to you and there are no gray areas. The gray areas are what we mods are supposed to handle.
buddyp - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:21:31
Gun control is an entertaining diversion from core violence triggers; Video Games -Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call of Duty;, Celebrity News glamorizing drunks, fights, shootings, drugs, Mediazation: Zero Dark Thirty, Homeland, No Easy Day, and a continuing insensitivity and tolerance to bad behavior on the part of America's youth.
Gun are just tools, human beings who chose to cause injury and death do not need to rely on guns to do their work, box cutters did a good job of killing thousands of people on 911, guns wouldn't have been any more effective than the box cutters. Fertilizer bombs killed thousands of Marines in Lebanon as well as lots of people in Oklahoma City and improvised explosive devices continue to kill innocent adults and children throughout the middle east and does anyone remember when homemade Saran gas killed a bunch of people in the Tokyo subway?
While the uninformed jump on the "ban the guns" bandwagon violence in American culture continues to flourish, partly due to the ban the gun people wasting their time focused on the tool rather than the cause.
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:26:29
The availability of weapons does play a crucial role. The last amoks in Germany all were done using a legal weapon. The more legal weapons there are the bigger the chance that some idiot will use one to kill childrenIt's the temptation of the killing machine. I doubt that the typical amok psycho would seek out illegal connections to aquire a weapon. I wouldn't know how to get a gun if I wanted to run amok today and the same goes for most around here.
jwoods - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:31:50
1. Put semi-automatic weapons into the class 3 category...the same category as fully automatic weapons.
2. Adolescent screening and treatment for mental disorders.
3. Cash incentives for current semi-automatic weapon owners to turn in those weapons.
4. Close down the loopholes that exist in buying weapons at gun shows.
I grew up around guns...we hunted. So I know how to use them, and respect them. I am not in favor of banning guns.
If you want a gun for protection, get a 6-shot revolver. And if 6 rounds ain't enough to stop an intruder, you need to learn to shoot.
gottasmilealot - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:42:12
Criminals and crazies will operate outside the law regardless of what it is.
figmo59 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:44:22
quote:
Originally posted by buddypGun control is an entertaining diversion from core violence triggers; Video Games -Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call of Duty;, Celebrity News glamorizing drunks, fights, shootings, drugs, Mediazation: Zero Dark Thirty, Homeland, No Easy Day, and a continuing insensitivity and tolerance to bad behavior on the part of America's youth.
Gun are just tools, human beings who chose to cause injury and death do not need to rely on guns to do their work, box cutters did a good job of killing thousands of people on 911, guns wouldn't have been any more effective than the box cutters. Fertilizer bombs killed thousands of Marines in Lebanon as well as lots of people in Oklahoma City and improvised explosive devices continue to kill innocent adults and children throughout the middle east and does anyone remember when homemade Saran gas killed a bunch of people in the Tokyo subway?
While the uninformed jump on the "ban the guns" bandwagon violence in American culture continues to flourish, partly due to the ban the gun people wasting their time focused on the tool rather than the cause.
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:49:18
More gun laws? Chicago has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation. And one of the highest murder rates too. The powers that be there moan about there being too many guns in Chicago and in Illinois saying that is the problem. That statement takes any responsibility totally out of the hands of who, the criminal. So it's not their fault they commit a crime? What good have your laws done so far? You want to have gun control in Chicago and elsewhere? Get your rear ends out in the streets and confiscate all the illegally owned guns already out there! Why not? Are they not the problem? Is it just the legally owned ones? The ones any new laws would effect? What total idiots.
Forget more gun laws unless they are about more serious punishments for crimes committed with them. But sadly that would do nothing for this incident. He was bent on destruction and destruction is what he gave and got.
The best gun control for the average law abiding person?
Have them locked up in a safe, especially with young people in a household. That might have had an impact on this particular crime. Then again he might have just driven into a classroom with a vehicle, got out and started with a knife.
Who would the more gun law people have to blame then? Oh yeah, to them it's not who to blame but what to blame. So then they could go after cars and knives.
Makes perfect sense.......
dmiller - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:51:38
quote:
Originally posted by gottasmilealot
Criminals and crazies will operate outside the law regardless of what it is.
This is a "truism". Anyone ever heard of the Bath School Massacre?
It happened back in 1927. Just outside of Lansing Michigan.
"1927 -- US: Bath, Michigan School Disaster. Andrew Kehoe, seeking revenge against the community for taxes imposed on his farm to pay for a new school, set off a TNT bomb in the school, killing 43 people, including 39 grade-school children. After the explosion, Kehoe killed his wife, then drove his truck back, loaded with dynamite & nails to the school, & set it off, killing himself & the school superintendent."
mike gregory - Posted - 12/15/2012: 11:59:52
Figmo asked if someone would start a separate thread for the gun/no gun discussion.
He was hoping that this other thread banjohangout.org/topic/251546 could be reserved for expressions of grief, etc.
So I opened this one as a favor to him, and to those who want to discuss grief over there, and guns over here.
Then I went to run errands. When I got back, it was like it looks.
Edited by - mike gregory on 12/15/2012 12:06:32
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:05:19
And if the guy had used four 6 shot revolvers would the tragedy had been any less? How about two with two speed loaders? No. So what then. We'd still be where we are now. Starting in on any laws about gun control only opens the door for more control down the line and that is exactly what many want.
steve davis - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:07:33
Maine has "a gun in every home" more or less and miniscule gun violence(except on the local wildlife).
I think it's good not to live where it's too crowded.
People seem to get very angry when they bunch up too thick.
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:08:21
I guess people have forgotten the Oklahoma City bombing? 168 lost including 19 children under 6.
Not a single death by gun.
I hope no one has forgotten that tragedy.
Gymbal31 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:19:27
washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkb...d-states/
Gymbal31 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:28:27
The Founding Fathers considered slaves 3/5ths of a person, thought the president should be allowed to run for his office as many times as he wants, and that it wasn't appropriate for women to vote. They weren't always right.
But they also knew things would change and that the Constitution should change as well.
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:37:49
Then have your police in Chicago go on out and get all the guns that already are in hands illegally. Those laws already exist. Come on now. This just happened last night. chicagotribune.com/news/local/...168.story
If the some of the most strict gun control laws in a city can't curb gun violence how is it going to work for the nation? What are they waiting for? What is the problem?
Maybe that pesky 4th amendment against unreasonable search and seizure?
Care to change that one? Apparently if is time for a change get that one too while you are at it.
That is the slippery slope of gun control law.
Edited by - jbanjoist on 12/15/2012 12:51:04
drummer101 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:42:23
Remember to take a deep breath before every post you make. We're all adults here, stay cool.
"Gun control is an entertaining diversion from core violence triggers; Video Games -Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call of Duty;" Buddyp
Oh boy... I hope you've got some statistics or research to back this one up. I suppose Rock and Roll and Heavy Metal are also to blame?
plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:52:05
Why waste effort & resource trying to stuff this genie back in the bottle? These outrages are mass killings, not the individual killed at home or on the street. The sickener is the premeditated ambush of a large number of innocents so that some crank can make their point.
It would be more effective and probably acceptable to the broad majority to make public buildings and enclosures gun free zones. Keep people safe where they expect to be safe, schools, cinemas, shopping malls & the like with similar security arrangements as airports.
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:56:59
The school was already a gun free zone..........................so much for that law.
pandjlocke - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:58:06
School grounds currently are gun-free zones. We have a sign and everything. We also have a law that says you can't kill people. Maybe we need a sign?
Edited by - pandjlocke on 12/15/2012 13:01:02
mbanjo - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:58:10
Listen to the Lyrics
Edited by - mbanjo on 12/15/2012 13:02:57
figmo59 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 12:59:45
Plunk...
I think tha school here..in ct....had ah zero tollaoance...rule...fer guns...in place...
Not too eefective...imo..
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 13:03:50
Aint a thing wrong with our constitution that the downfall of decent morals in this country hasn't ruined.
Everything is acceptable these days. Everything. And if it isn't acceptable oh it wasn't his or her fault, they had a bad experience, or they were abused, or society failed them, or this or that. So let's blame the only thing our fine sensibilities will let us, the object the crime was committed with.
Steven M - Posted - 12/15/2012: 13:05:59
I left a reply here about gun control and the 'Right to Bear Arms" etc and then deleted it. You know,,, its none of my business nor that of the rest of the planet, I was disgusted by what happened, but its none of my business, if you want to murder your own children simply to preserve an archane right then thats your business. :(
plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 12/15/2012: 13:07:19
quote:
Originally posted by pandjlocke
School grounds currently are gun-free zones. We have a sign and everything. We also have a law that says you can't kill people. Maybe we need a sign?
It does need society to demand that it's enforced, it will need changes to layouts & design of the facilities; and it will need associated security arrangements.
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/15/2012: 13:09:55
Why not legalize murder? That rule doesn't seem too effective, too.
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 13:17:13
Laws are for the law abiding. Show me one instance where a criminal did not break the law that was against his crime.
figmo59 - Posted - 12/15/2012: 13:18:55
quote:
Originally posted by JoeDownes
Why not legalize murder? That rule doesn't seem too effective, too.
Edited by - figmo59 on 12/15/2012 13:20:06
jbanjoist - Posted - 12/15/2012: 13:21:43
Al you certainly have a way with words.
That's a good way too buddy.
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