ScottK - Posted - 11/30/2012:  15:27:09

A buddy just pointed me at a Tommy Ramone interview in Huff Post where Tommy gives this shout out to old time music:

What do you listen to these days?

Mostly I listen to old-time music, some bluegrass, some Americana stuff, too many to name. But of the younger acts there are The Freight Hoppers, who were big in the 90s, and The Foghorn Stringband from Oregon, and there's a lot of young string bands coming up now, basically punkers who play acoustic instruments forming new bands. It's a scene that's actually been around a while, but it's kind of brewing under the people's noses -- that's where the intense stuff is coming from nowadays. 

Scott

J-Walk - Posted - 11/30/2012:  16:20:22

Intense stuff?

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/30/2012:  16:32:26

I had to look up Tommy Ramone first, but I did regret the waste of time. Fortunately, I suspect Old Time will survive even with this dude's recommendation.

That word "Americana" sets my teeth on edge and I feel everyone who uses it to refer to any music ever played in America, north or south, east or west should be made to drink 20 gallons of good clean Gulf of Mexico water.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 11/30/2012 16:38:46

dbrooks - Posted - 11/30/2012:  17:32:15

This is the 4th or 5th association I have heard between punk rock/heavy metal and old-time music in the last couple of years.  In a WV educational TV video on YouTube at the Vandalia Gathering, I believe it's Chance McCoy who made a similar statement.  I don't claim to understand it, but as I watch some of the Clifftop videos or Horseflies videos, I can see some similarities in the trance-like groove that is shared among the players and the pounding, rhythmic output from the fringes of rock.  Those Clifftop videos may not be representative of old-time music in the eyes of many, but it is one dimension of the music being played today.

David

J-Walk - Posted - 11/30/2012:  17:43:03

This could be intense stuff: youtu.be/WXP7QGUxpFU

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 11/30/2012:  17:44:26

"Like lambs to the slaughter, they are drinking the water, and (cough cough) breathing the air!" Some people have to have names for everything. I even heard of folks naming their banjos, guitars, and other inanimate objects. I named my daughters, but when the older hit about 15, she became an inanimate object. Slept till after lunch every day! But I digress....
There seems to be a number of former punk musicians discovering OT music and liking it a lot. I'm not sure that's any worse than some of us who played other styles before, or concurrently with, OT music. I guess what road they took to Little Rock is OK by me, they got here in their own way & time. Sounds like Tommy is one of THOSE Ramone's. I won't look him up, I've heard enough of them to not need to go there again.
Paul

banjo bill-e - Posted - 11/30/2012:  18:44:02

Well, yes, the music is intense, it is played with passion and it has some soul to it------ unlike the synth pop and rap and what passes for R&B and Country music that dominates the popular airwaves these days. The Punks were looking for something else, some music that rejected all that commercial crap. I DO see why they might find old time string band music appealing. I also remember when my appearance was somewhat offensive to my elders---to my immense satisfaction. I say welcome them to the party. Some will turn out to be decent people, and some just might be the ones to carry on the tradition. Don't be too quick to judge. We were young, once upon a time, too.

stevel - Posted - 11/30/2012:  20:55:03

I'm a metal head turned old time fan. OCMS was my original influence, even though I don't play any of their material any more.

Fred Cockerham is probably my favorite old time player, and the biggest influence on my clawhammer style.

Edited by - stevel on 11/30/2012 20:55:42

hoverflytheo - Posted - 12/01/2012:  04:44:08

When I was twelve or thirteen, I used to listen to the Ramones quite a lot - I still have a bit of a soft spot for 'em.  I've not listened to them in years, but then I go elsewhere for my "loud and fast music" kicks, and it usually involves a fiddle and/or a banjo.

I never really listened to much other punk - I wouldn't say I was enthused by it as a genre (though interesting stuff came from it.)  And, as song content goes, I'd say a lot of it was basically inane - but then, to be honest, a lot of old-time songs lack deep, meaningful lyrics.  And I now have a mental picture of the Ramones singing "Cluck Old Hen" (never going to happen, as the majority of them are dead.)

I've got no idea what Tommy Ramone is doing now (not really bothered), but if he's interested in old-time then why the hell should anyone object?  I don't know if he has any plans to play old-time, but if he does I'd be interested to hear it.  Just listen to someone like Allison Williams - apparently she used to play punk, but now I'd say she's a great exponent of old-timey music.

Edited by - hoverflytheo on 12/01/2012 04:45:37

Fathand - Posted - 12/01/2012:  05:57:11

Old Time means different things to different people. Some places it means 1930s Country music ( Carter Family, Jimmie Rodgers ?) as in the movie O Brother,  around here it means Hank Williams and Merle Haggard, to most on the Hangout it means Appalachian style banjo/fiddle music.  I wonder what Mr Ramone's definition is.

hoverflytheo - Posted - 12/01/2012:  06:13:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

Old Time means different things to different people. Some places it means 1930s Country music ( Carter Family, Jimmie Rodgers ?) as in the movie O Brother,  around here it means Hank Williams and Merle Haggard, to most on the Hangout it means Appalachian style banjo/fiddle music.  I wonder what Mr Ramone's definition is.

---

Well, he distinguishes it from bluegrass and "Americana", which seems more advanced than a lot of people's definition...

Twangmeister - Posted - 12/01/2012:  09:23:47

I used to like the Ramones and although my musical tastes have moved on, I reallly think in many ways their music has stood the test of time fairly well for what it is. My fifteen year old nephew loves them as well as other punk bands and is learning guitar as a result. This has got to be better than wasting his time on computer games! Who knows, his interests may eventually develop into Old Time music and the banjo as my own did.

I started out as a teenager listening to metal bands, moving from this through blues rock, to electric blues, acoustic country blues, country artists like Steve Earle and Gillian Welch to eventually Old Time and the banjo. We all walk our own path in music as in everything else!

ScottK - Posted - 12/01/2012:  12:00:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by J-Walk

Intense stuff?

---

Yeah, I don't usually experience old time music as intense, but do occasionally.  Most often in a late night, tight, hot jam session at a house party or festival.  Not so often in a recording or performance setting.  Tommy mentions Foghorn in that interview.   He may have seen them live.  I've seen them in several late night festival jams or Sunday evenings at the Moon & Sixpence when they were just smokin'.   Especially when they had a friend like Dirk Powell, Rayna Gellert, or Betse Ellis sitting in.  This video from the 2008 Berkeley Old Time Music Convention with Rayna Gellert and Patrick Sauber playing for a square dance with Foghorn captures some of that.

Old time music is also sometimes intensely personal or intimate.  I used to host house concerts and experienced a lot of those moments.  Like Elizabeth Laprelle singing an old mountain ballad to one of her and Anna Roberts Gevault's crankies in a packed living room where everyone was dead silent in rapt attention.  Or James Bryan and Carl Jones playing Farewell Trion (and everything else they played that night).  Or sometimes just having a fiddle-banjo duet session with a friend in the kitchen on an evening with no one else around.

For the folk I know who came to old time music from the punk scene, I think a big part of the attraction was the do-it-yourself and off-the-music-industry-grid aspects of it.  Having a square dance (or any other kind of dance) in your house with live music made by you and your friends and to hell with the music-as-business scene seems in line with the attraction for the folk I know.

That interview reminded me of an interview with Danny Barnes in the Banjo Newsletter several years ago where Danny said he'd recently discovered Dan Gellert and Reed Martin and was really getting into them.  Danny compared Reed Martin's Old Time Banjo CD to Ramones CDs, because it was full of short fast tunes.  That cracked me up.  (For those who haven't heard it, Reed Martin's CD is great!)

Scott

Don Borchelt - Posted - 12/01/2012:  14:01:23

Lighten up guys, jeez, he's just trying to pay a compliment.  "...that's where the intense stuff is coming from nowadays."  That's high praise from a rocker.  And yeah, Reed Martin's CD is really great.

ScottK - Posted - 12/01/2012:  15:56:16

Sorry if I came across as heavy. Not intended. I like pretty much all kinds of music and used to listen to a lot of everything including the Ramones. Portland has a great club scene and I used to really take advantage of it to go out and see live music. Nowadays I'm listening mostly to old time music to supplement my efforts to learn the music on both fiddle and banjo. That and spending a lot more time playing music rather than going out to listen to other people play music.

Scott

Tim in the garden - Posted - 12/01/2012:  16:22:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Don Borchelt

Lighten up guys, jeez, he's just trying to pay a compliment.  "...that's where the intense stuff is coming from nowadays."  That's high praise from a rocker.  And yeah, Reed Martin's CD is really great.

---

That's what I thought Don. 

witty banjo related username - Posted - 12/02/2012:  05:32:09

I agree with the grumpy old farts: people should only be allowed to listen to one kind of music. If you pick old time, you stick with old time, if you pick punk, you stick with that.

witty banjo related username - Posted - 12/02/2012:  05:32:58

youtube.com/watch?v=Q73oy29O4OA

oh yeah, this too.

Ernest M - Posted - 12/02/2012:  07:23:22

That was great.

quote:

---

Originally posted by witty banjo related username

 

youtube.com/watch?v=Q73oy29O4OA

 

oh yeah, this too.

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KnarfEK - Posted - 12/02/2012:  13:17:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by J-Walk

This could be intense stuff: youtu.be/WXP7QGUxpFU

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And with just the audio I couldn't tell if that was young whippersnapper upstarts  or 'real' old-time fogies.

witty banjo related username - Posted - 12/02/2012:  16:14:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by dbrooks

This is the 4th or 5th association I have heard between punk rock/heavy metal and old-time music in the last couple of years.  In a WV educational TV video on YouTube at the Vandalia Gathering, I believe it's Chance McCoy who made a similar statement.  I don't claim to understand it, but as I watch some of the Clifftop videos or Horseflies videos, I can see some similarities in the trance-like groove that is shared among the players and the pounding, rhythmic output from the fringes of rock.  Those Clifftop videos may not be representative of old-time music in the eyes of many, but it is one dimension of the music being played today.

David

---

I do believe they make the they association between punk and old time based on the homemade/not giving a rat's arse about the mainstream sort of way; obviously there are exceptions to this in both the old time and punk worlds. also, there are a large number of hairy, stinking, unwashed people involved in both of the above mentioned genres.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/02/2012:  16:21:20

What I listened to of the Ramones yesterday was not Punk to my ear, but straight out commercial pop - with sorta Punk fashions. Did the Ramones go through several stages or is real Punk pretty much forgotten?

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 12/02/2012:  16:33:54

If you played the way that most people on this site seem to want you to play, old time music could most certainly NOT be described as intense. Remember guys: No singing, no smiling, no fun, and the tune has to be a 300 year old one that no one else has ever heard of. However, most of the old time music I like to listen to and play IS intense. Any music that you can put yourself into is intense. And I can't think of a better adjective to describe the music of people like Roscoe Holcomb or Dock Boggs. I like all kinds of music and I like the Ramones. Even if you don't like the Ramones, can't we just be happy that there's another person out there enjoying the music we love so much? Anything that calls more attention to old time should be viewed as positive by those who play and appreciate it, in my opinion, but I guess than people would have to stop treating it like some elitist social club.  I'll never understand why an artist someone dislikes is mentioned they feel compelled to put them down. It may not be your thing. That does not in any way imply that it is entirely without merit. We just all have different tastes.

Edited by - UncleClawhammer on 12/02/2012 16:38:26

Rizo - Posted - 12/02/2012:  16:49:06

I used to play punk guitar. Used to listen to The Ramones, The Sex Pistols, Minor Threat, a little Bad Religion, The Stooges, Black Flag, and especially THE CLASH (the only band that matters, as they like to say).

I still love that stuff for it's grit and enthusiasm (which is really the point of punk, as opposed to technical precision and perfection, you know). At some point though, you grow up a little and get tired of the scene, the hearing damage, and all, but you still want that energy, that rawness and most of all, that accessibility. (Then again, I have a Crass patch on my gig bag...)

Old time music sure seems to fit the bill. I had a discussion with another punk-rocker-turned-old-timer at Clifftop this year (and there's more than a few of us) and he said the way we complain about the "hippy old timers" (no offense meant, in case anyone takes that wrong) is the way the next generation will complain about the "old time punks" (and I won't take offense).

I say, as long as a younger generation is interested in learning the music, no one should complain what background they come from. Just my opinion.

RG - Posted - 12/02/2012:  17:22:19

Agree with a lot of the posts regarding various types of music, and having been in the music industry for 25+ years I like a pretty eclectic mix of music, but if you want to play OT, don't approach it from a backbeat pop/rock approach, or a classical music approach, or a new age musical bent, listen to the old timers and what they are doing rhythmically and tonally and play accordingly...otherwise, you're just not playing OT, you're playing pop/rock, classical or new age with banjo. fiddles and guitar...period...it isn't OT.  Roscoe and Dock played their own style for sure, but COMPLETELY within a traditional OT musical framework...just my 2 cents...

Edited by - RG on 12/02/2012 17:23:29

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/02/2012:  21:00:44

RIzo,

I think from what I usually hear from the few actual mountain people who play old time, they don't know the difference between  1960s Hippies and 1980s Punks. We're all just flatlanders who should get out and stay out.

Rizo - Posted - 12/03/2012:  04:38:23

Tony, we must have meet some very different mountain musicians.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 12/03/2012:  06:50:08

Rizo wrote: "Tony, we must have meet some very different mountain musicians."

Wow, you can say that again.  I've always mountain folks to be generally courteous and hospitable.  Unlike a lot of us "flatlanders,"  they have not forgotten their upbringing.

 

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 12/03/2012:  07:30:09

Mountain people are just the same as any other people, you take the good with the bad. While they may or may not have forgotten their upbringing, not all of them had a good upbringing. I say this as a mountain person, though that phrase conjure up images in my mind of people living in isolation wearing furs. I find most musicians to be generally courteous and hospitable, inclusive and helpful. They see treat the music with the importance it deserves and are happy to help pass it along, though traditional mountain music is probably more well-known and widely played today than it ever has been. I find the mean ones with big egos are most often the mediocre players. There are exceptions, of course. And even a humble musician tends to have a head so big it can just barely squeeze through the door. :)

Edited by - UncleClawhammer on 12/03/2012 07:32:22

blockader - Posted - 12/03/2012:  08:27:21

you are wrong OWC. i think thats all i will say.

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 12/03/2012:  11:47:46

driving home this evening, 3hr drive which is great time for indulging in listening and mulling stuff over in the mind.  My thoughts were of the Ramones and the interview comment about the Sex Pistols & I thought pah sad old has been whining about missing the boat, but yeah OT has some intensity of emotion.  Then listening to Mac Traynham I wondered how intense was it to sing about a pretty crowing chicken? 

All the ex punks out there - remember the band Carter?  Does their song 30 Something ring true to you guys too?

witty banjo related username - Posted - 12/03/2012:  14:30:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by plunknplinkntwang

  Then listening to Mac Traynham I wondered how intense was it to sing about a pretty crowing chicken? 

 

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I guess that depends on what feelings you have for said chicken.

lewis_86 - Posted - 12/04/2012:  05:52:59

The Ramones were an inspiration for me to pick up the bass and just go for it. I couldn't ask for much else. Musically they tick many a box for me - from intense rock 'n roll to straight up pop.

Tommy could also be referring to people like Chuck Ragan. He doesn't claim to be "old time" or anything else for that matter, but does come from a punk-rock background and nowadays plays more folk influenced stuff. With a mean fiddle player too sometimes. Heres what I mean...

youtube.com/watch?v=tJrvZ3NU2OY

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 12/04/2012:  08:43:22

There is a punk band named Ramshackle Glory that features a clawhammer banjo player by the name of Douglas Fur.

Rizo - Posted - 12/04/2012:  08:48:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by plunknplinkntwang

All the ex punks out there - remember the band Carter?  Does their song 30 Something ring true to you guys too?

---

 Not as much as Frank Turner's "Photosynthesis."

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/08/2012:  15:22:24

I guess none of you spent the 80s going to Galax, listening to the locals call you names and threaten to "cut your hair off." Some nights is was more like Deliverance than a music festival. That's why we hung out in the stables, where we tended to outnumber the mean drunks 10 to 1 and could say "No we don't play Free Bird" without worrying we might have to defend our right to play what we went out to play.

People wonder why Galax is no longer a major festival. I don't. If I could I would go to Clifftop. I hear a lot of the same comments about it here, but since there are no real locals, the festival doesn't attract every drunk in town. Sounds a lot more like the Brandywine Festival back in the 70s.

JackJack - Posted - 12/08/2012:  16:55:05

There's a bunch of us old (and new) punks that play banjo right here on the hangout. Check it out.

For me, following punk in my teenage years in the 80's, and now playing the banjo has a lot to do with wanting my own individuality. Not too many people like punk, and not too many people like banjo. But when you meet someone that likes one or both, you know you'll have something real and interesting to talk about (at least for a little while anyway).

Paul R - Posted - 12/08/2012:  19:58:39

I've never subscribed to the "it's all good" motto, but then, "live and let live" seems much more reasonable. If someone from a different musical culture praises OT, what reason is there to complain? Take it for what it is. At some point we enter a musical form needing to be grounded in that form. It's interesting to hear comments on a style that has been picked up and spread far and wide by a lot of city folks. Not saying they started it, but what would we have heard without them? Sort of a symbiotic relationship, imho.

Kitt - Posted - 12/09/2012:  06:06:03

I intended to post this as a stand alone subject, but it kind of goes along with what is going on in this thread, and I think it might take some of  the edge off of how this thread has traveled.

These sisters, calling themselves Rising Appalachia, are coming at 'Old Time' from a slightly different angle, shaped by their diverse background.

I like most of what I've heard from what is posted online. I haven't known about them long enough - a few hours as of this writing - to listen to or purchase, one of their cds yet.

Here is Cumberland Gap:   youtube.com/watch?v=XiLlYsu5Lkc

Here is their double clawhammer banjo version of a "traditional" tune called Remember What You Told Me: youtube.com/watch?v=AFONOVJly5k

J-Walk - Posted - 12/09/2012:  15:12:29

Rising Appalachia's first album, Leah and Chloe is the best IMHO. Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss with a trumpet is amazing.

I learned four tunes from that album: Greasy Coat, Lonesome John, Camp Meeting on the 4th of July, and Coleman's March.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 12/09/2012:  16:33:56

Well, JackJack got me curious so I checked out the punk group, even though I don't exactly fit in there, I AM open to new things. And while there I saw people listing their favorite bands. I followed a few links and found some music that I really like, especially the Earl Bros, though I don't even remotely consider them punk, which is probably why I liked it. Whatever, I'm just saying that for me something worthwhile came out of this thread, and to remind people that there are benefits to keeping an open mind about music, and about people, too.

jojo25 - Posted - 12/10/2012:  10:12:54

do I have to tell you again!?!

remember...there are absolutely no absolutes!

LEUllman - Posted - 12/11/2012:  20:20:08

Come to a square dance, jam, or Festival here in Los Angeles hosted by bands like Triple Chicken Foot, Sausage Grinder, and others, and you'll understand why Tommy Ramone (correctly) sees a connection between punk and old time. These guys may be young (well, compared to me, anyway), but don't let the tattoos and piercings fool you. They are seriously into old-time music, and they play with a level of energy and drive that is a joy to experience.

ScottK - Posted - 12/11/2012:  20:48:41

quote:

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Originally posted by LEUllman

Come to a square dance, jam, or Festival here in Los Angeles hosted by bands like Triple Chicken Foot, Sausage Grinder, and others, and you'll understand why Tommy Ramone (correctly) sees a connection between punk and old time. These guys may be young (well, compared to me, anyway), but don't let the tattoos and piercings fool you. They are seriously into old-time music, and they play with a level of energy and drive that is a joy to experience.

---

I had a great time jamming with Ben and Kelly at Weiser and Fiddle Tunes this year!  

Speaking of young (compared to me) SoCal old time musicians who play with a level of energy and drive that is a joy to experience, Belinda Thom sent me a note to tell me she's coming up for the Portland Old Time Music Gathering.  You should come too, Larry! 

Scott