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NYCJazz - Posted - 11/01/2012: 09:20:46
quote:
Originally posted by Compass56
That's an excellent question KingStudent! I would probably lean toward option 3), because most people consider Sean Moyses a big time plectrum player even though he doesn't utilize the tuning listed in 2).
I have my tenor Silver Bell tuned CGBD, but I agree Sean is a first rate plectrum player using DBGD
How about...
XGBD
??
KingStudent - Posted - 11/02/2012: 03:47:29
Actually I've already learned a lot from this thread! In my case I use CGBD tuning on a 17-fret (actually 2, a Slingerland and a Lyon & Healy). I've no objection to 19- or 22-fret banjos, it's just that these are the ones I have, and they've been nicely restored and set up. (Looking at a vintage 19-fret now, in fact.) I use the older, early 20th-century method which I would compare to chord-melody -- a chord ending with a melody note on an upper string, often tremoloed (the melody note that is). This makes sense to me b/c I was coming from chord-melody style on guitar. The 22-fret instrument is fine but sometimes the stretches are a bit more than I want to contend with. So what does that make me? I think of myself as a plectrum player but I don't do much of the jazz chord strumming style, and I mainly play my own compositions, not one of the jazz or folk styles. So I'm greatly heartened to hear about all of the different variations on the 4-string. 
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/02/2012: 05:25:01
In Northern Europe, where I live, plectrums are outnumbered by tenors at a ratio of 1:20 or so.
Furthermore - the vast majority of plectrum players, that I´m aware of in this part of the world, are using the Chicago DGBE tuning. Though a few players have lowered this by a half note.
On the other hand - I do also know a few players tuning their tenors CGBD. Plus appr. 1/3 of the jazz tenor banjo players are using Chicago DGBE tuning. Etc. Etc.
I supply many players with individual sets of strings - try imagining how many single string gauges I have in stock - LOL!
Indeed a mixed society - plus many players own and play both plectrums, tenors, banjukes etc.
The only thing they have in common - it´s all about 4-string banjos.
Polle
banjovictor - Posted - 03/11/2013: 12:24:56
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
In Northern Europe, where I live, plectrums are outnumbered by tenors at a ratio of 1:20 or so.
Plus appr. 1/3 of the jazz tenor banjo players are using Chicago BDGE tuning. Etc. Etc.
The only thing they have in common - it´s all about 4-string banjos.
Polle
Now I understand why some of those (tenor) banjos sound so wrong over there. On the vids it's hard to tell what the left hand is doing. That kind of tuning will mess up the intonation and it will sound different.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/12/2013: 04:52:00
Victor,
If you want to comment a posting by me - please put in a quotation of the complete posting or non at all - otherwise the knowledge and expertise behind it will be lost or confused.
As for your own comment - banjo players have since the introduction of 4-string banjos in respectively 1905 (tenor) and 1915 (plectrum) used all sorts of tunings - in fact many more than indicated in my posting above.
So - do forget all about "wrong" sounds, messed-up intonations etc. - the banjo is an indeed very versatile instrument and will forever be used in a lot of music and playing styles - and tunings! LOL!
Gary,
And that´s why a separate plectrum forum will in fact limit a lot of players and styles.
Polle
banjovictor - Posted - 03/29/2013: 09:14:49
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Victor,
If you want to comment a posting by me - please put in a quotation of the complete posting or non at all - otherwise the knowledge and expertise behind it will be lost or confused.
As for your own comment - banjo players have since the introduction of 4-string banjos in respectively 1905 (tenor) and 1915 (plectrum) used all sorts of tunings - in fact many more than indicated in my posting above.
So - do forget all about "wrong" sounds, messed-up intonations etc. - the banjo is an indeed very versatile instrument and will forever be used in a lot of music and playing styles - and tunings! LOL!
Gary,
And that´s why a separate plectrum forum will in fact limit a lot of players and styles.
Polle
Well, I've been going to banjo conventions in the US since 1989, starting with the Allenberry (PA) banjofest; I still played tenor back then. (I switched to plectrum in 1996). Over the years, I would attend sometimes as many as five banjo conventions in one year at various parts of the US, year after year, FIGAs included. (FIGAs: Both New Orleans, both Sacramentos, both Ft Mitchells [Cincinnati] and a whole slew of others)
I NEVER saw or heard a standard 19 fret four string tenor banjo played by a competent/seasoned player tuned any other way than CGDA. Novices may have had it for initial ease - if they played guitar before. Never by an experienced player, not here in the US at any of the dozens and dozens of banjofests I've been to, other than some experimental (temporary) tuning for some particular desired sound effects by some high end players - Like Tyler Jackson.
Unfortuantely, the "wrong" intonation due to guitar tuning of tenor banjo is clearly audible to me, AND to other players; we have discussed it among ourselves during our gatherings over the years. Usually it would come up as a puzzle why a good instrument like a say, a B&D #? or a Vegavox tenor would sound like crap. It was the tuning; I clearly remember of a nice Vegavox tenor at GLIB with "wrong" sound - surprise - guitar tuned by a novice player. Perhaps not all hear it, but some of us - including me - DO.
Plectrums are another matter; they have variants; guitar tuning being the most frequent deviation, however, on the plectrum it's not readily apparent or discernible - for whatever sonic/resonance/intonation reason.
As for your dating of banjos, per a presentation of Buddy Wachter at GLIB one year, on the history of banjos - and that's when I learned it first - the tenor banjo was invented around 1910 - first called a "tango banjo" with the viola tuning (in fifths) to make it easier to play for people with violin playing skills - which was widespread at the time. Banjos at that time were hugely popular in general, with banjo bands and such, and this new instrument conceived in this manner and tuning, opened a large new market of people who studied violin in school. Back then, violin was THE instrument to learn in schools in the context of music teaching.
However, the plectrum banjo is the original parlor banjo from the 19th century; still played today as the "classic banjo" with written, notated music, but lost the fifth (G) string on the top, as it was redundant for pick (plectrum) chord strumming in the ragtime, banjo and newly emerging jazz bands. It (obviously) significantly pre-dates the tango (or tenor) banjo. Hence the name "plectrum" notating the pick use in lieu of fingertips.
The city-dwelling (middle class) respectability, and wild success of the banjo came with the "classic banjo" style, five string banjo, tuned gCGBD played with fingertips of written, notated music. It happened during the the late 19th to 20th century. This is the particular (5 string) banjo King George V played (or so it's claimed that he did). The popularity and sycopated sound of the banjo is reflected in works of Louis Moreau Gottchalk (of New Orleans) who wrote two piano pieces; Le banjo and Banjo deuxieme.
It is not well known, but in a article by Harry Reser (BMG, [England] February, 1926 titled: "Relative merits of the tenor and plectrum banjos for orchestra use") quote:
"Almost every player - whether his natural instrument is the tenor banjo or banjo...has wondered time and time again what the advantages would be in learning the other instrument. [...] This is explained by the fact that the tenor banjo is tuned in fifths. [...] The banjo because of its tuning (CGBD) is a bit more complicated. The chord positions on this instrument form close harmony and give a very full and solid effect. None of the various types of banjos can compare to the standard banjo for solo playing and real feature work. It is well worth any any tenor banjoist's time and money to get busy on this instrument."
Note: Harry Reser calls today's plectrum banjo just "banjo" (the banjo), or in the sentence before the last "the standard banjo". He also notes, that the tenor banjo is tuned in fifths and not in any other way.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/29/2013: 09:48:53
Victor,
I did warn you somehow - you´ll have to know the people - addressed by you here at BHO - at first hand.
Do forget about Buddy Wachter´s statements of the past - he´s a dear friend of mine and does fully respect my expertice. Another US friend is John Hoft - he has in the later years performed a lot of research regarding the development and introduction of the tenor and the plectrum banjos. You´ll not want to go against his and my expertice regarding this.
As for tunings of these two banjo types - you´ve not done your home work - you´ll have to dig deeper. Do go back to the teens and early 20s.
Please do this at first hand - and then come back. Do also have in mind, that the number of 4-string banjos in Europe does most likely exceed that of your country. Did you know?
Polle
banjovictor - Posted - 03/29/2013: 10:55:41
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Victor,
I did warn you somehow - you´ll have to know the people - addressed by you here at BHO - at first hand.
Do forget about Buddy Wachter´s statements of the past - he´s a dear friend of mine and does fully respect my expertice. Another US friend is John Hoft - he has in the later years performed a lot of research regarding the development and introduction of the tenor and the plectrum banjos. You´ll not want to go against his and my expertice regarding this.
As for tunings of these two banjo types - you´ve not done your home work - you´ll have to dig deeper. Do go back to the teens and early 20s.
Please do this at first hand - and then come back. Do also have in mind, that the number of 4-string banjos in Europe does most likely exceed that of your country. Did you know?
Polle
My Dearest Polle;
I find your style of writing condescending and arrogant.
I KNOW your "dear friend" Buddy Wachter since 1980 or 81. I'm sure it's much-much longer than you've known him. He gave me banjo lessons in 1982, when we were still young, him playing at Shakey's on Friday and Saturday nights. See, we lived in the same city.
By the way: Buddy Wachter accompanied me on stage at this year's Allenberry banjofest on Feb. 10th. I didn't think it was necessary to play this stuff up, that I've known him for 32 years and at one time we were really close friends, but since you making these ridiculous "dear friend" claims, you might as well know who you are trying to "impress". Heck, I knew his parents(!), and have been in their house several times, never mind Buddy's own places. Perhaps I'll call him and find out if he actually knows you; I should call him anyway in another matter.
With the Exception of Ken Aoki, the very best players are still here in the US - like it or not. Even the new, young ones, Tyler Jackson or the 17 yrs old Nathan Hanna can outplay ANY European player, and both of them on both tenor and plectrum banjos. (Nathan plays guitar too). For tenor, single string jazz improvisation by Steve DiBonaventura is simply awesome - I just listened to him in Allenberry (jam). Absolutely nothing and nobody can play like that in Europe - not in your wildest dreams.
More players do not equal quality.
That you are lecturing (and insulting) an American player living in America, playing American music on an American instrument is truly audacious, offensive and arrogant.
Please note I do NOT respect your "expertice"(sic) and as for John Hoft, I never heard of him, whoever he may be.
UncleClawhammer - Posted - 03/30/2013: 00:17:02
Being an American player does not make you a better player. That's just absurd, and frankly, I find it unfortunate that anyone would think being American somehow makes them better than anyone else at ANYTHING. Furthermore, any claims about who is the "best" player is purely subjective. Let's not fight, guys. That energy could be spent on banjo playing. There are no rules to the banjo, regardless of what some of us would like to think. 
My favorite trad band is probably the Chris Barber Band, and he's had banjo players that used both the Chicago plectrum tuning and the standard tenor tuning.
Edited by - UncleClawhammer on 03/30/2013 00:21:25
Mike Moss - Posted - 03/30/2013: 07:36:16
quote:
Originally posted by banjovictor
The city-dwelling (middle class) respectability, and wild success of the banjo came with the "classic banjo" style, five string banjo, tuned gCGBD played with fingertips of written, notated music. It happened during the the late 19th to 20th century. This is the particular (5 string) banjo King George V played (or so it's claimed that he did). The popularity and sycopated sound of the banjo is reflected in works of Louis Moreau Gottchalk (of New Orleans) who wrote two piano pieces; Le banjo and Banjo deuxieme.
Nice post. I would, however, like to add a few elements to this historical summary:
- Banjo music was already notated in the Minstrel era, albeit in a lower pitch. The main change in the late 1800s and early 1900s was the scale of distribution -- much more written music was printed and sold, by a broad variety of publishers, but the notation system invented during the minstrel times was maintained with few changes other than pitch.
- The banjo was already being played with the fingertips during the minstrel era. At the time, it was called "guitar style" -- not because the technique was the same as that on the guitar, but rather because the broad mechanical action, pulling with the fingers, was the same.
- Sensu stricto, Classic banjo is not exclusively fingerpicking. A late form of stroke style, played with a metal thimble, survived, although it was a minority trend.
- The young Prince of Wales played "stroke" style (down-picking) with a silver thimble on a 5-string banjo. See attached newspaper cutting (May 10 1894, The Evening Telegraph).
- The banjo's tuning continued creeping upwards until the 1880s. "American notation" up to 1907 was written as if the banjo were tuned three half-steps below the tuning common during the 1890s and 1900s. Some professional players tuned their banjos to A to get even better "cut", but ultimately the modern gCGBD/gDGBD intervals stuck.
- The whole "respectability" thing has been overplayed by some modern documentaries and books. The banjo remained a popular instrument on which, apart from a few exceptions, people played light popular music. In fact, many Classic banjo standards were transferred to Plectrum banjo as well (for example, many tunes by Emile Grimshaw and Alfred Kirby were published simultaneously for both finger and plectrum style) and there was a good deal of overlap between the two, as well as between Classic and minstrel styles.
Edited by - Mike Moss on 03/30/2013 07:37:19
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Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/02/2013: 03:06:24
Ivan,
Congratulations - your "Polle Dislike Club" does now have 3 members - or maybe 4, 5 or more - who knows/can tell?
I wonder - why don´t you instead come up with some knowledge or expertise - for all of us BHO members to learn and benefit from?
As for arrogance and condescension - it will be hard for me to compete with Victor´s postings at this thread - he seems to be a master in these disciplines - as he claims the US players to be within banjo playing.
I´ll have to stop for now - my private mail box is filled with hundreds of positive/grateful expressions/statements from other members - I´ll have to concentrate on these. Sorry!
Oh Dear - it seems, that I´ll also have to write a lot of banjo masters and virtuosos outside US - telling them, that they in fact are inferior - compared with US players.
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/02/2013: 05:13:50
Thal/Michael,
Ha- Ha - thanks for support - I´ll sign you in as a free member of the exclusive PFC association.
As a member you can ask for any help/guidance/or-what-so-ever - I do not know it all - but I do know some - I´ll find out about the rest - and I´ll try to help/advice you the best I can.
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/02/2013: 05:33:07
Ivan,
I seem to recall, that I in the past have given you some great advices as well - do however forget about these - as a non-member of the PFC association you were not at all entitled getting these.
Sorry!
Polle
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