minstrelmike - Posted - 09/07/2012:  06:42:34

If you want folks to play a new song at a jam, play it every time you show up.

It takes 3 or 4 jam sessions--with the same people--in order for the group to learn a new song.

8-10 weeks with normal turnover of jams.

If you pull out a new song at a jam, I can play along with you and you may eventhink I know it, but it will take hearing/playing it 3 or 4 times over 3 or 4 weeks for me to really remember the tune and hum it at home (assuming it's some instrumental fiddle tune thingie).

The rule of thumb for CEOs and teachers is that you should repeat something 7 times.

mandojammer - Posted - 12/21/2012:  15:11:21

Speaking as a mando player, I have a question for y'all old time banjo jammers. What's the story on playing in the same key all night?

I'm a newbie in the old time jam world and have been to about four jams at a local group. We played for about an hour and half in G and then I proposed a tune in D and one of the banjo players bit my head off. It's a well known tune (Whiskey Before Breakfast) but he said he'd never heard of it and refused to play it because it wasn't in G. "Nope, next."

So here's my question - can you guys really only do one key? Is the standard protocol really to never change at all? Do you really have to retune just to switch from G to D? I recognize that G tuning might not be optimal for a D song, but does it have to be optimal?

Thanks for enlightenment.

J-Walk - Posted - 12/21/2012:  16:10:56

Good banjo players really don't have to retune to play in a different key. But it sounds a lot better if they do. 

What you experienced is very typical of old time jams. Players will stay in the same key for a long time. Sometimes, the entire jam will be in the same key. Kind of rare, but it happens. Often, fiddlers will also change tuning when the key changes. 

That's just the way it is with old time jams. 

Sometime, banjo players will bring two banjos to facilitate key changes. 

conohawk - Posted - 12/21/2012:  22:38:37

Mandojammer,  I think you happened upon a banjo player who was off his meds.   While a jam may play in one key for a long while, it is common that folks are ready to move on to a different key eventually.    Tuning between G and D is not a big deal.   We do it all the time.   Seasoned players can do it within several seconds, by ear.

Keep on jamming.

-Mark

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/25/2012:  10:27:22

I usually attend one or more  OT jams a week. In OT there is rarely more than one key per evening.

mrussell - Posted - 12/25/2012:  10:42:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by mandojammer

Speaking as a mando player, I have a question for y'all old time banjo jammers. What's the story on playing in the same key all night?



I'm a newbie in the old time jam world and have been to about four jams at a local group. We played for about an hour and half in G and then I proposed a tune in D and one of the banjo players bit my head off. It's a well known tune (Whiskey Before Breakfast) but he said he'd never heard of it and refused to play it because it wasn't in G. "Nope, next."



So here's my question - can you guys really only do one key? Is the standard protocol really to never change at all? Do you really have to retune just to switch from G to D? I recognize that G tuning might not be optimal for a D song, but does it have to be optimal?



Thanks for enlightenment.



 

---

I guess it depends on the group.  When I have the opportunity to join some of the folks that live around me, I typically bring two banjos; one in G and one in double C.  This way I can switch depending on where the fiddle player is taking us.  Sometimes its a wild ride.

Mike

Viper - Posted - 12/26/2012:  08:48:45

Sounds like a jerk. Occasionally, in this world, you come across those. As others have said, it depends on the group how often (or if ever) a jam changes keys. I've never been to one that didn't switch to a new key at least once over the course of a few hours. But yes, we like to retune. 

rhnewsome - Posted - 12/26/2012:  10:35:28

Mandojammer,

Here's why......(but it doesn't excuse the rudeness of the guy you referenced in your first post)

Since the banjo is typically tuned to "open G" for songs in the key of G, it is easy to go between G and A by just putting a capo on the second fret. No need to retune.   For songs in C and D, I tune my banjo to "double C" which requires retuning 2 strings, and capo up 2 for songs in D.

At some OT jams, the group will stay in G/A songs for a time, and then switch to C/D tunes.  It just helps the banjo players.

Most banjo players get used to retuning and can do so pretty quickly. I seldom miss more than the first verse of the new song when I need to retune.  When it looks like I will need to constantly be changing tunings, I'll take 2 banjos. One in G and one in double C. 

At least that's my excuse for having more than one banjo.

slc - Posted - 12/26/2012:  12:23:42

It's primarily because of the banjo player as others have said. Not only is it inconvenient for the banjo player to tune back and forth, but the entire session then needs to wait until the banjo gets in tune - which can take quite a long time! And the more people watching the banjo tune the longer it takes... I'm also seeing more fiddlers tune their fiddles to a key as well. That's the pragmatic reason. But it's become kind of a self-directed habit. So sometimes if I'm playing fiddle with, say, another fiddler and guitar player (no banjo) we'll find ourselves playing in the same key for a while; we've trained ourselves to think "mmm - A - what other tunes do I know in A?"



Personally, as a banjo player I try to be unobtrusive (challenging - it IS a banjo after all) regarding tuning. If someone suggests a key change I support it happily, and have gotten reasonably fast at getting into close-enough tune. Having a fifth string spike helps a LOT with this, especially since my 1890's banjo has a rather sticky peg for the 5th string...

A lot of this is about group courtesy and consideration. Fiddlers may not want to be held 'hostage' by a banjo player unwilling to retune. Yet it's also kind of obnoxious to make the banjo retune for every new tune that's played. So the group or community finds a (hopefully) happy medium, which is usually to stay in one tune "for a while" until a reason to changes - someone really wants to play a certain tune in a different key. Or folks are just getting tired of the current key. Another reason to switch keys is when you're at a party: if the mega-session in the next room is rockin' in the key of A, then playing in D or A is just going to sound better!

mandojammer - Posted - 01/04/2013:  17:36:57

Thanks for filling me in. I could never have learned all this stuff otherwise.

mbuk06 - Posted - 01/05/2013:  03:45:29

One question...

Does jam 'etiquette' mean someone should name the next tune, or even just call it as an aside when they've started playing? I've been to jams where (in a room of maybe 12 players) the same one or two will just kick off the next tune with not so much as a heads-up for anyone else. Even on tunes that I know it can take a verse or two to recognise the tune and fully join in and I've watched some at the jam just looking confused and not playing a note when this happens.

Ernest M - Posted - 01/05/2013:  07:25:17

At the jam I attend (sadly, only once a month), we go clockwise, with everyone getting a chance to name a tune. Even the newbie who just came for the first time.

N3AL - Posted - 01/05/2013:  07:40:05

Same as Ernest M above: jamming with Oregon Old-Time Fiddlers (District 4) weekly, going around the circle everyone gets to choose a tune. Even if you are a beginner and don't know one tune yet, you can name a tune and if some know it they will play it!

chip arnold - Posted - 01/05/2013:  08:28:53

Who picks a tune varies from one jam to another. In my experience, if it's a small jam of a few friends, everyone is comfortable calling out a tune. In bigger jams, usually the fiddler(s) will start each tune, though there's nothing wrong with suggesting a tune to the fiddler(s).

mbuk06 - Posted - 01/05/2013:  08:37:42

Ernest and N3AL turn-taking is what I thought was usual and simple good manners too. The jams I most enjoy are those where the next song choice goes around the circle and everyone gets to select. The temptation, if folks don't take this idea on board, is to avoid those jams wherever possible. Play nice...as is the often quoted good advice on here.

Edited by - mbuk06 on 01/05/2013 08:38:23

mbuk06 - Posted - 01/05/2013:  08:40:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

Who picks a tune varies from one jam to another. In my experience, if it's a small jam of a few friends, everyone is comfortable calling out a tune. In bigger jams, usually the fiddler(s) will start each tune, though there's nothing wrong with suggesting a tune to the fiddler(s).

---

...start and call the tune? 

I'm familiar with jams where the fiddle leads but there's usually an indication of what the next tune is. Is this good practice?

Edited by - mbuk06 on 01/05/2013 08:44:04

Ernest M - Posted - 01/05/2013:  08:46:26

Yeah, it is one thing to call the tune, and quite another to start it, especially if, like me, you have not been playing that long. Some people in our jam will always pass the start off to the fiddler. I prefer to man up and screw the start up a couple of times. And what the h*** are taters?

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/05/2013:  10:45:52

The thing is -- if you are having a good time and enough people know a fair number of tunes in a given key (usually those are the fiddlers - in our jams anyone can suggest a tune (even the bass players) but if no fiddler knows it we usually don't play it. Occasionally a banjo player will teach the fiddlers a tune, but it is harder to get all the notes from the banjo - unless you have a fully melodic player in the group, and we don't

But there are an evenings worth of tunes in all the keys that just about everyone we jam with knows now so there is not much incentive to change keys in an evening. We certainly don't get bored with one playing an evenings worth of tunes in one key.

Most of our local fiddlers re-tune or use separate fiddles for different keys. As an example my wife usually carrys two fiddles to jams, an "A" fiddle and her "D, G, and C", fiddle. G and C tunes she plays out of Standard fifths tuning  GDAE, and she retunes this fiddle for D (I've forgotten the actual tuning.

So we have two groups that retune and we tend to have a built in desire to explore a single key for a whole evening. I really like this, and I think it really helps less experienced players because in the course of a long jam in one key they develop the ability to play new tunes based on remembering the individual phrases that make up the tune. This ability eventually leads most players to be able to learn new tunes on the fly.

I used to "KNOW" tunes but now I don't keep up specific arrangements. I try to hear the melody and rhythm as played by the fiddler who kicks the tune off, and play off of that. I consider jams to be improvisational, and I think most of the other players do too.

Our jams tend to be pretty friendly affairs and while we don't have a direct system for picking tunes, we get along with everyone's suggestions. Usually if two people call out different tunes, we do both. One immediately and the other right afterward.

There is a recent development where we do change keys in one jam group. This is because only a core group knows more than a dozen tunes in C (there are plenty out there, but people tend to be somewhat intimidated by all those Rags in C and therefore slow in learning them.

slc - Posted - 01/08/2013:  10:59:40

I just saw some of the conversation about playing in 'unison' and such, and wanted to add a somewhat philosophical point. There is no such thing as a pure 'tune' that sits out in space waiting to be played well (or not) by others. Instead it's recreated anew in real time by the synergestic activities of the players. It's 'bigger than the sum of it's parts'. So when I'm listening to a session and whacking away on my banjo, I'm not thinking so much "here's how *I* know this tune", or thinking "mmm - they're not playing the noties just right should I play theirs or the right ones?" or "let's discuss how accurately we'll play that tune". It's not me vs the other musicians but me AND the other musicians, creating something bigger than ourselves. This is true if we're playing in beautifully authentic Round Peak style, or totally butchering something we got off the radio, we are still playing together and building something great (hopefully).

It's a little difficult to translate thought processes, but I tend to visualize the session tune as a 3D space or cloud (lots of pretty lights and emotions and movement in there - but that's my brain on old-time music haha), and I try to 'place' my notes into that space in a pleasing and supportive way. I sometimes think of it as finding a 'niche' for my notes. That niche might be a close unison - or a harmony or a lot of notes NOT related to the melody or a single note played over and over like a drone.

Jams aren't a fancy kind of parallel play (like infants, who don't really interact in their play but each does their own thing just next to each other) but a real act of creativity and connection. Certainly one can establish norms - breaks or not, loud or not, who starts etc - but those are primarily social structures to support the act of creating the tune as it's played.



One of the projects I'll probably never get around to, is make some demo videos of how the banjo changes when it's playing solo vs in a session. My playing changes a LOT when a session tune 'lifts off' and I think it'd be interesting to look closely at that process - perhaps it can even be communicated to others...

chip arnold - Posted - 01/08/2013:  11:11:29

mbuk06 i'm not sure what you're questioning. In bigger jams it's very common for the fiddler to call (name) the next tune and start it. It's also common for the fiddler to simply start without naming the tune. This I don't enjoy! I really have no problem with a fiddler calling the tunes and I've never been rebuffed when suggesting a tune to a fiddler. I've been in plenty of the round robin sort of jams and they're fine by me as well. But I don't see any reason why a jam should have to be a completely egalitarian affair.

mbuk06 - Posted - 01/08/2013:  12:21:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

mbuk06 i'm not sure what you're questioning. In bigger jams it's very common for the fiddler to call (name) the next tune and start it. It's also common for the fiddler to simply start without naming the tune. This I don't enjoy! I really have no problem with a fiddler calling the tunes and I've never been rebuffed when suggesting a tune to a fiddler. I've been in plenty of the round robin sort of jams and they're fine by me as well. But I don't see any reason why a jam should have to be a completely egalitarian affair.

---

Chip, sorry if i wasn't clear...it 's the second scenario I was questioning. When a fiddle player just starts with no indication of what the tune is. My question is if (whoever kicks off a tune) it is good jam etiquette to at least name it beforehand?

chip arnold - Posted - 01/08/2013:  12:46:07

It's considerate to name each tune before starting. I think sometimes a fiddler gets a trip out of making everyone try to grab hold after the train leaves the station and I don't like that. On the other hand, I've been in jams where everyone was from the same area and knew the same tunes. The fiddler kicks off a tune and everyone knows it immediately. Even then, I find it more enjoyable if the tune is named first so that everyone can begin on the first note of the tune.

slipry1 - Posted - 01/08/2013:  13:07:25

Having played and busked for a long time, I am able to retune really rapidly.  I was jamming with Kerry Blech a few years back, and he gave me a great compliment.  The other fiddler was worried about changing keys, and Kerry said "Don't worry about Jack.  He'll be in the new key quickly."  Thanks, Kerry.  i'm usually there halfway through the first 4 bars of the A part of the new tune.  btw, I use "Old G" or the "2 F's" tuning in performances and jams.  Out of the 2 D's (2 C's no capo), just tune both A's (G's) to G's (F's), and, voila you're there.  The chords are different, though, but the tuning, which contains no 3rd notes (B in the key of G), sounds quite modal and is good for fiddle-banjo duets.  I use it for "Barlow Knife", "Sandy River Belle" (called by Dick Burnett "Ladies on a Steamboat"), "Sally Goodin", 'Sandy River", "Last Chance", "Sail Away Ladies", "Nancy Rowland", and "Stony Point (aka "Wild Hoss", "Pigtown Fling", etc.) and other G tunes as called for.  Anyhow, practice tuning on the fly, and listen to yourself tune.  The Aldrich motto (thanks Dad and both Grandpas for that) is "the more you do it, the better you get:".  Oh - I'm really careful about tuning with an infernal device before getting started, in whatever key the fiddlers want you to be in.  It's pretty impossible to retune if you are out of tune to begin with.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/09/2013:  09:05:10

First off:

I',m in complete agreement with Slipry on the subject of tuners.

Here is an article I'm working on for the next edition of my ebook

rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Concert Pitch

You should always keep your instrument at Concert Pitch. It is okay to tune a half tone or even more either low or high of concert most of the time, but you should always move your tuning in measured equal amounts, or you are likely to find your "ear" getting no better at finding the melody notes you need.

Electronic tuners are your best friend. You should buy one and use it - or 2 tuning forks if you are a digitophobe probably "G" and "C", but yoou could be a "D" and "A" person too.

If you have any loss of hearing (like you get playing in front of a Marshall Stack for a few years) I even recommend them for playing alone at home. I also recommend them for fretless players. I like the Red Snark, but any colour Snark is still a good tuner at a really good price

All the above is just plain good practice for anyone with compromised ears of a lack of experience. These is however another way to understand the need for a tuning device.

People tend to drift. Sound is fleeting. If you are playing alone you might find your tuning drifting over time. When I was doing Flamenco alone in my bedroom and only going to see my teacher once a month, my tuning was always at least a half tone (1 fret equivalent) sharp at the lesson. This means when comparing 2 notes I usually assume the higher on is correct. This is common - but it is not good. Pitching steel strings too high will risk more breakage, and more finger pain. And an ear that does not "Know" the real world pitch of any tunes.

So tuning becomes so an important element in ear training. If you are always tuned to A = 440, you are in tune with almost everyone playing in the US, including classical orchestras. When you hear an "A" it is always the same pitch, 220, 440, and 880 and sometimes 1760 are all the 'A' notes you'll ever play on your banjo. Why not get to know them, so that you will recognize "A" when you hear it? By using a device to remember the exact pitch of 'A' so that your tuning remains constant, you are giving yourself a course in ear training, that will eventually allow you to learn tunes on the fly.

The only time I'm ever stumped at a jam is when someone pulls out a tune like 5 Miles To Town, and that is only because it has a fairly complex structure. I'm sure that I could figure it out, but I really don't like the tune enough to do so. I have only so much time to give the banjo, and 5 Miles to Town is not on my "To Learn" list. Just about everything else is petty much a snap for me, and I can usually be playing along before the tune goes back to the beginning (most tunes repeat the second part and that is repeat where I usually join in. Over the course of playing the tune I usually start doing variations. I like to keep what I do more original than playing the melody exactly the same every time

"Believe me, this is not an idle boast. Most of my musician friends learn tunes at least as fast. Some don't have the finger agility I have and they tend to silently "finger" their instrument for longer before the. My wife has about the sharpest ear I know but she doesn't have the left hand, and so she tends to play through quietly until she is confident of the tune.

My suggestion however, is to learn a massive pile of Old Time Tunes. And practice, practice, practice them. And memorize, memorize, memorize them. Learn a batch of tunes in each of the keys and tunings popular in your area. If you don't know - go to a jam and ask. I know that almost every OT group does the keys of D and A, many also do G, fewer do C, while F, and Bb seem to exist only in books and websites about the real old timers.

Learn them off tab, or if you are confident your ear is telling you the truth, get out the slow down software and learn each phrase from a recording, until you have the entire tune. If you attend jams you probably have a list of the tunes they played - those would be among the first for you to learn.

One thing to remember: a tune might not show up again for months. All your careful study has gone to waste. But it really has not. You can call for tunes YOU know. You don't have to wait for a fiddler to remember about it. At most public jams the chance to call a tune will come up for you - use it.