Frailblazer - Posted - 07/16/2012:  10:01:44

I have struggled with tonal consistency on my Romero 12" since first receiving the instrument. It has a goat skin head that on certain days sounds truly spectacular. On most days however I find the process of tweaking the head tension to be both frustrating and time consuming. After living with this for the past year I decided to try applying a waterproofing spray (non-silicone and wax free), which unfortunately had very little affect.  On some days (most actually), the head tension will change quite a bit over the course of an hour while playing. To be exact, the tap tone on the head will increase or decrease, based on the humidity,  2 full steps.  I have found that my playing style requires a very narrow sweet spot where the tap tone on the head is an F#. This is probably too much to expect from a skin head.  I've seen lots of threads where folks have talked about having a spare bridge on hand that can be used when the head is loose. That won't work for me because it's not an issue with the string action but rather about the overall tone (clarity, overtones, brittleness, etc.) of the instrument.

I recently made a difficult decision to replace the skin head with a Renaissance. It was not an easy choice to make because the skin head adds a wonderful esthetic to the instrument. I spent a good part of this past weekend tweaking the tension, trying different bridges, experimenting with foam placement, etc. and I am very happy with the results. The sound I'm getting is very similar to what I was getting on days when the skin head was at its best. It is full, with clear mids, strong low end and crisp highs and it's just as loud as before. Not surprisingly, the tap tone is still at F#.

In summary, I still feel that the sound I was getting from the skin head when it was at its best was just a bit superior to the sound I'm getting now. But in the long run achieving that sound was a very rare event. It was like chasing a ghost. The big difference now is that EVERY time I take the instrument out of the case it sounds wonderful. I am now able to fully focus my efforts on making music rather than adjusting the tone. I feel liberated and at the same time a bit saddened that the skin head didn't work out for me. I know that Jason is experimenting with dying Renaissance heads to look similar to his hide heads and perhaps I will explore that in the future.  For now though, I'm thoroughly enjoying my NEW banjo experience and actually like the clean, uncluttered look of the Renaissance too.

- Ric

Edited by - Frailblazer on 07/18/2012 19:13:56

Bill Rogers - Posted - 07/16/2012:  10:06:52

I went that route some years ago--even before tha advent of the Ren heads.  My experience was similar; the time involved in frequent tweaking wasn't worth it for me.  Nice mini-essay.

mworden - Posted - 07/16/2012:  11:22:51

Out of curiosity, why did you choose Renaissance (vs Fiberskyn, etc.)?  Do you think 12" heads are more susceptible to humidity and other related changes than 11" heads by virtue of the increased surface area?

Frailblazer - Posted - 07/16/2012:  11:30:39

quote:

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Originally posted by mworden

Out of curiosity, why did you choose Renaissance (vs Fiberskyn, etc.)?  Do you think 12" heads are more susceptible to humidity and other related changes than 11" heads by virtue of the increased surface area?

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I have a Renaissance head on another 12" banjo and love the way it wounds. I've never tried a Fiberskyn but from what I understand, it has a slightly darker tone. I like having the full high end capability and enjoy controlling it via my right hand (nail vs. flesh, angle, playing over the neck, etc.)  I do suspect that the larger the head the more susceptible it  is to humidity changes, but I've not done any testing to verify.

- Ric

The Old Timer - Posted - 07/16/2012:  12:27:05

Frailblazer, you just encapsulated the death of the calfskin head banjo making industry and the takeover by the plastic heads.

A friend of mine bought a plastic head from Hank Snow Music in Nashville in 1958 when he played on the Opry. He said all the other banjo players were plumb fascinated by it!

'Ere long, they all (with the possible exception of Kirk McGee and the REAL old timers) switched to plastic, even including String and Grandpa and Os.

pickNgrin - Posted - 07/16/2012:  12:48:37

All I know is the old timers loved their banjo tone and also loved tradition. And yet they couldn't get away from skin heads fast enough. I have never been tempted to try one. 

I can see how they might be nice if you always have the banjo in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. Otherwise, they are just too temperamental so I understand.

-matt

banjologist - Posted - 07/16/2012:  14:08:21

IMO Mylar heads solve most weather induced changes, the best thing sinced sliced bread.
From many reports Kevlar heads do not have "a good" sound. much like graphite (Carbon Fibre) bridges.

J-Walk - Posted - 07/16/2012:  17:22:09

I understand completely.

You can retain some of the esthetics of a skin by painting the underside of a Ren head. Apply very thin coats of a few different colors of paint in a pattern that looks like a skin. It won't fool anyone who knows, but at least it makes them less transparent (which I hate).

Timeless1952 - Posted - 07/16/2012:  23:28:24

I love the sound of a good skin head on a banjo if it's "Right."  Trouble is they are rarely that way.   Greatest thing to happen for a banjo player was the plastic head.   Having to use a Skin Head years ago kept  a banjo about broke trying to keep one on it!!!

K

Edited by - Timeless1952 on 07/16/2012 23:31:05

bluegrassboy - Posted - 07/17/2012:  04:48:12

i have an old rogers head that i have put on 2 of my gibson banjos, loved the sound, but changed them back

dculgan - Posted - 07/17/2012:  05:23:46

Once you go "ren" you'll never go skin. Not linking this to the hide head group.

Frailblazer - Posted - 07/17/2012:  06:34:39

quote:

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Originally posted by dculgan

Not linking this to the hide head group.

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I already did because I think it's relevant. I'm not bashing hide heads by any means, but I do hope that my experiences can help others in a similar situation.

- Ric

goldtopia - Posted - 07/17/2012:  06:38:59

Like many others, I stopped using skin vellums many years ago. Plastic heads are one of the best things that came out of America. No weather problems and they keep their tone.

Bill.O

motleyminstrels.co.uk

elohim-ufogods.co.uk

dculgan - Posted - 07/17/2012:  06:46:16

I was just kidding Ric, but I see I forgot the smiley. I agree its relevant and I changed one banjo over from its original 1926 hide to a renn. head because the skin head sounded really bad. It wasn't a humidity issue, I just think it lost any musical qualities it might have had over the years, or it was a dud head to start with. I've used shoe protector sprays with silicone on new heads and they do work to a point, they delay the absorption of moisture and keep the banjo playable but it eventually gets in and does effect the tone.

Frailblazer - Posted - 07/17/2012:  06:56:12

No worries. 

banjered - Posted - 07/17/2012:  07:16:14

I have my feet in both camps, a Tradesman with a Ren head and an old Stewart with a skin head and nylgut strings. To me, skin heads make for a warmer, more pleasing sound that is distinctly different than plastic heads. It is all in the ears of the beholder. Different doesn't necessarily imply inferior or superior. Banjos are all pretty basic. A $5K banjo to me doesn't always sound superior to a $500 banjo. Different, yes but not necessarily superior. Ditto skin/plastic heads. I sprayed the skin head with waterproofing available from China-Mart and haven't had any significant tonal/tension problems, but neither am I hauling it to stage to stage from Arizona to Alaska. All the above is more or less true. You can get great sounds out of either head, the plastic is probably more reliable/consistent. Maybe some banjos are extra sensitive to weather changes and need a plastic head. Perhaps 12" heads are more challenging. Are thicker pots less suseptible? The Stewart is a spun-over - less suseptible? Anyway, my current solution - TWO banjos! Banjered

Cottonmouth - Posted - 07/17/2012:  12:07:30

I'm about to try another skin head now that they are being waterproofed as an option, not to mention being stained as well. I have no problem with Fiberskyn, as it has served me quite well. If tightened sufficiently, it will provide plenty of volume.

Mike Moss - Posted - 07/17/2012:  12:25:31

Same here. I had an old banjo with an unusual-sized head (over 12") for which there weren't any mylar heads available, so I had to use a skin head (I used a good quality processed white calfskin head). I had the same experience as those described above -- on a good day it would sound great and more musical and resonant than mylar, but it would often go soft to the point of allowing the bridge to slip and tip over on a damp morning. Now I use renaissance heads exclusively and I love them -- I love the way they don't get dirty, the way that you can tighten them really tight, and I like the sharp, bright tone they give.

Ron44 - Posted - 07/17/2012:  19:43:47

Thanks for posting this. I just removed the skin head from my 13" minstrel banjo
because I had experience like yours.

wuzapicker - Posted - 07/19/2012:  20:31:53

I've used Remo Fiberskyn 2 (R) heads on my Paramount conversion since they were introduced. I like the way that banjo sounds with the Fiberskyn. Since I'm working toward converting another Paramount to replace the former that needs much TLC and restoration, I'm planning to install a high quality calf head on it. Paramount banjos have a sweet sound that I think will befit the mellowness of a calf head. Some have told me I won't enjoy the natural head, but being the head strong curmudgeon I am, I intend to experience it all first hand.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 07/19/2012:  20:56:06

Earl Scruggs once was quoted as saying that he didn't think that plastic heads sounded as good as a good hide head, but that it was simply too much trouble keeping a hide head adjusted correctly  -particularly when out on the road.    After many years of living with the love-hate relationships of hide heads I finally joined that camp with the advent of the Remo Renaissance.

I still think that a really good hide head sounds just a bit sweeter than a Renaissance, but the call is pretty close and the Ren heads have a very nice sound of their very own.

~Pete

Frailblazer - Posted - 07/20/2012:  07:49:41

quote:

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Originally posted by wuzapicker

Some have told me I won't enjoy the natural head, but being the head strong curmudgeon I am, I intend to experience it all first hand.

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  Enjoy the ride!  

- Ric

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2012:  09:27:12

It always tickles me to have a customer call me and tell me they want to install a skin head. I've tried to talk them out of it but that usually fails. The same thing always happens, which is they love the sound of the head when its set perfectly for the banjos set-up. But fast forward a few weeks or a months later, and they return with far fewer hair and a mylar head under their arm-LOL.

I know that when Jim came out with that "Hide Head Blues" CD a few years ago, many BG players ran out and installed hide heads on their banjos, hoping to capture those sounds. But they failed to consider 3 main points, which are 1) He's Jim Mills doing  the picking, 2) Those banjos were  prewar flatheads and 3) the banjos were being played in a studio with consistent humidity and temperature control and with fabulous mics and engineering.

Even the OT community, as hard core as they are sometimes about such things, use plastic variants for regular playing and giging. Bluegrassers embraced mylar heads back in the 50's, but decided to do a time travel experiment  with hide recently.  The time travel experiment for practical use, failed miserabl.

MARTY...MARTY...get  in the Delorian and fire up the FLUX CAPACITOR!!...

larry p - Posted - 07/20/2012:  10:28:46

I prefer the tone of a hide head-but they are aggravating. There's been one exception in my experience-that was a 'seal skin' that a Friend of mine brought me from Alaska..I scraped it down like my uncles used to scrape down the whistle pig hides, got it mounted on the banjo, and that seal skin head was just about as stable as a plastic head..don't know if it's because seals stay in the water and the cold all the time or what-but they don't fluctuate NEAR as much as a goat skin, whistle pig, or calf skin head..I also had one of Bill Miller's 'pre-stretched' hides that I got some good service out of..

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2012:  11:34:36

quote:

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Originally posted by larry p

I prefer the tone of a hide head-but they are aggravating. There's been one exception in my experience-that was a 'seal skin' that a Friend of mine brought me from Alaska..I scraped it down like my uncles used to scrape down the whistle pig hides, got it mounted on the banjo, and that seal skin head was just about as stable as a plastic head..don't know if it's because seals stay in the water and the cold all the time or what-but they don't fluctuate NEAR as much as a goat skin, whistle pig, or calf skin head..I also had one of Bill Miller's 'pre-stretched' hides that I got some good service out of..

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Larry, yeah i could see how the seals environment and genetics could make a very stable head. But where do you get seal skin heads-lol. Im glad we have mylar cause its very stable, sound great and we dont have to kill seals for heads anymore.

ramjo - Posted - 07/20/2012:  11:44:36

I figure it’s time for me to chime in here because Ric and I have virtually identical Romero banjos, and we recently had an email conversation about how much time is spent twiddling the hide (if you will). I’m not giving up, but I totally understand why Ric would. Anyone who’s listened to his music postings know what an accomplished musician he is and what a fine ear he has for perfection in his recording. It’s obvious to me that Ric aims for and achieves a singular tone in his music, and to do that, it requires consistency among all the components. He provides the consistency of his skill and his superb technique; the impeccable build of the Romero provides the consistency of the banjo voice. But if the head tension keeps changing at will, that’s going to have a pronounced impact on a system that does not have room for much tolerance. The ren head stabilizes everything. Ric can tune the head to F# and it will stay there.

I, on the other hand, have been playing for a while, but I’m not an accomplished musician, and I’m not striving for pristine recording. There’s a lot more tolerance in my musical system.  I have a ren head on my Ome and could swap it out for a trial on my Romero, but haven’t even considered doing so. I’ve convinced myself (admittedly with no experimental evidence) that the sound that attracted me to Jason's instruments came from the specific set of materials he chooses among, and a goat skin head was on all the samples I listened to to come up with the specs for my build. And I love the way the damn thing looks! So I figure tweaking the skin is part of the package. I keep the tension wrench right next to the capo and the tuner. Also, it helps that I’m geeky enough to think it’s fun.

Frailblazer - Posted - 07/20/2012:  13:37:51

Robert - Thanks for your VERY kind words.   

I really wish I could have made the hide head work, because as you said - it adds so much beauty to the instrument.

- Ric

Rizo - Posted - 07/20/2012:  14:16:27

I have to say, I would have been right there with you a month or two ago but I sprayed my skin head with some TruSeal waterproofing spray from a TruValue hardware store and am VERY happy with it.

Is it as stable as plastic? No. Is it stable almost all of the time? Yes. Does it sound good? Great. YMMV.

unclekurty - Posted - 07/20/2012:  15:18:41

I've experienced the same as Ric as others. On my 13 inch Romero keeping a skin head tight was a problem. Bob Smakula has 13 inch Ren's. This banjos sounded better with a ren. I have an 11 inch Romero with a skin head that came off another banjo. I rarely adjust it. It's more stable then a new ren. On my two 12 inch Romero's I found it also difficult to keep skins really tight all the time. I put a ren on one a long time ago. In fact that was my first Romero. On my other 12 I put on a ren and nylons. I think a ren head can sound great with nylons. But I went back to steel on this one. On my 10 inch Romero the skin head from the beginning needed very little adjustment. On my Brooks 11.5 it took about half a year maybe longer to get it dialed in and I rarely adjust it anymore. On my Hartel 12 inch Minstrel I keep the head a bit loose anyway and rarely adjust it. I put a skin on my 12 inch Reiter and did not like the sound. I put the ren back on. On my Enoch I liked the way it sounded with a ren head and stained it black. I antiqued the hardware and tuner black too. It looks good.

On my new Romero 11 inch the head also will go very sharp when I play it. Maybe it's from body heat. But after having it since Christmas I'm finally getting it stretched out all the way. I've busted heads by cranking them at the begining too much. I've tried lots of different types of skins. I do like the thicker goat the best. Jason leaves lots of room for tightening down the tension hoop which is a good thing. It might look a little strange at first as it's sitting pretty high. Once I get the head stretched out all the way I'll have room left for more adjustment. I don't like my banjos to have the tension hope pulled below the top of the rim.

It takes time and patience to break in a head. For me they work better on smaller heads and less so on bigger ones.

ramjo - Posted - 07/20/2012:  15:40:31

Yes, UnlcleK. That's a very good point about how far you'll be pulling down the tension hoop over time with a skin head. It's good to keep in mind if you plan to mount your own. Pull it tight enough to leave the hoop pretty high at the beginning.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 07/24/2012:  08:04:44

This thread has been very useful to me. I just ordered a Romero, which, of course, won't actually be made for a while, so I have plenty of time to keep changing my mind over the specs. I love the look and sound of Ric's banjo, and was using it as inspiration in deciding on what to get for myself. In fact, it was Ric's banjo that got me interested in a Romero in the first place - I had never heard of them until Ric started a thread here a couple of years back when he first got his.

Based on the specs of that banjo, I was definitely planning on a goatskin head - now I am reconsidering that idea, and will be closely following Ric's progress with his new Renaissance head before making any decision about that.

Frailblazer - Posted - 07/24/2012:  09:07:30

Hi Marc,

Jason has been experimenting with adding pigment to the underside of renaissance heads to give them a look that is similar to his stained goat skin heads.  I suggest you reach out to him and ask for a photo or two so you can have a look.  This might be a nice compromise for you to consider.

- Ric

Big Dan - Posted - 07/24/2012:  13:55:58

I tried a skin head about a year ago. The New Zealand humidity just killed it. Pity, because during one of its occasional good minutes it sounded lovely. 

Cottonmouth - Posted - 07/24/2012:  15:44:31

Do very few people even consider waterproofing their skin heads? It seems that the majority here just throw up their hands and give up on 'em. I am planning on a hide head, stained and waterproofed by John Balch. One of my Tu-ba-phones still has an original skin head, which seldom leaves my home, but I'm keeping it intact as long as I can.

Frailblazer - Posted - 07/24/2012:  18:30:38

Hi Al,

In my case waterproofing had little effect and I truly wish it had worked. Interestingly, I have an old (1890) Rettberg and Lange banjo with a non standard rim size. It has the original Jos Rogers Union model skin head which is surprisingly stable. I believe it was treated with wax back in the day.

I hope the head from John works out for you. I cooresponded with him regarding the use of a waterproofing spray and he was quite helpful.

- Ric

stringbreaker - Posted - 07/24/2012:  20:42:47

had skin on first banjo. got a remo. that was end of skin heads.

Edited by - stringbreaker on 07/24/2012 20:43:16

bigshinytone - Posted - 07/28/2012:  08:55:42

quote:

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Originally posted by stringbreaker

had skin on first banjo. got a remo. that was end of skin heads.

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Hey everyone, I had a chance to visit Jason and Pharis at the Winnipeg Folk Festival earlier this month and Jason described the process he uses to stain his Ren heads. Here's my first attempt...

I actually got the wrong size for my Farland, so I'm happy to sell the 12 inch head if anyone is interested.

Cheers

Tony