Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/08/2012:  18:00:45

There's another post going on about the staining, and I posted this picture on there. anyway, one of the ways they used to stain the curly maple on the old Pennsylvania rifle stocks was with iron filings dissolved in sulfuric acid. This would slightly burn and harden the wood as well as darkening it. I would not recommend that, although it looks great and these rifles have been around for a couple of hundred years:



I am finishing two necks - a cherry one, and a curly maple one.  The way you finish these is vastly different - the cherry will keep getting darker and darker all on its own, and needs nothing other than a non-UV blocker finish. The maple, in order to accentuate the grain, needs to be dyed (but I am not going to use sulfuric acid).

Further complicating the finish is the fact that the maple neck I have built has fancy cross banding and laminations, and I don't want them to be stained, so throw the body shop spray gun thing out the window - this is different than staining a one-piece neck.



SANDING

The very first thing you have to with any neck or resonator do is to sand it smooth. I always “raise the grain” by wiping the neck with a damp cloth - this causes the grain to swell, then when you sand it, it gets smoother - you can do this a couple of times, going to 220.  DON’T wet sand a raw wood neck. I do this with the  resonator, too. Why only 220?

One of those weird things that happens - several years ago, I had a  peculiar failure with a cherry neck, where after about 6 months, the customer told me the lacquer was chipping in a few places - this was a glossy lacquer finish, and I did it in the winter. Several months later, it had chipped more. I got the neck back, and sure enough, the finish was chipping. I stripped it down, but before I refinished it, I called Behlen and spoke with one of their chemists for about an hour, describing how I had finished the neck. I had sanded it down to 600, smooth as a baby's behind.



The chemist told me that the finish had come off the wood on the base sealer coat because I had sanded it too smooth - go figure -lacquer is a surface finish, not a penetrating finish - and that I should only sand it down to 260, maybe 320 for some kinds of wood, so that the first coat of sealer can mechanically bond to microscopic scratches in the wood.



After that, each coat of lacquer melts into the previous one, so the individual layers will not come apart. I redid the neck, with the bare wood sanded to 260 and nothing has happened to it since.







So,  you sand it down - I'm going down to 220:





STAINING

When you are doing laminations and cross banding, like I am, it is an important design consideration to have a dark band between the part that’s going between the part that will be stained and the part you have to protect:



So, how do you protect it?

 I paint the parts I don’t want to be stained with a  “barrier coat” - I use sanding sealer, and paint two coats on with a brush. I am good with a brush - this takes 10 minutes:

This looks tedious, but 2 coats only took about 10 minutes.  If you had concentric purfling stripes on the resonator, you'd have to do this.  I know, all about masking tape, trust me, but I wouldn't use it for this for several reasons.



As for the dye - I use alcohol based aniline dye, and Behlen's Solar Lux in various combinations. Solar Lux is more light fast than the regular dye, but both are compatible with nitrocellulose lacquer.  It's easy to thin it with denatured alcohol, it dries almost instantly, is easy to repair, etc.

I save jars of dye mixtures I have used in the past - I have a bunch of them in peanut butter jars, although mayonnaise jars would probably work too.   It's handy to have a "test" model neck section, the same wood as the neck (you can make it out of the scrap from the neck blank), to use as a "Guinea pig" before you do anything to the real neck. This is also handy to show the customer if they are uncertain about what they want:  You can really experiment with this, and strip it down if you don't like it, SO, I can plan out a color layer strategy:





You have to think of this as building up layers. Almost like "glazing" in painting.  You want to create an undercoat that will “shine through”.  You do this by putting a very bright layer down first, then building darker layers on top of it - painters have been doing this since before the Renaissance. The first layer is REALLY ugly, and way too bright, but you bring it down gradually, and the “glow”  is underneath . In order to make cherry look like mahogany, you have to stain it first with bright screaming orange, then work down with brown tones - you can’t work “ up- if you have a dead undercoat, you are dead in the water.

So, the first coat looks really ugly - if I had used bright orange, it would look even uglier:







Now you put on the second coat, and it starts to look a little better - still pretty harsh and florid, but your heart rate goes down - you can see the figure emerging:

You can see how the lamination is beginning to stand out, and that burgundy veneer is blending in to the stained maple. In the end, it will be pretty subtle and it will look more  like 3 layers of laminations than 5.

With the aniline dye, you can keep touching it up and blending in - it's very forgiving.

You won't get the full effect of the maple until the lacquer, but it's beginning to show

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I have put 3 coats of sanding dealer on the cherry neck and resonator. I am keeping it outside to sunburn, and you can start to see the mottle figure emerging - the neck and resonator are made from  the same board, and the burl is soaking it in This cherry will get a LOT darker as time goes on.

I'm rubbing it with a 3M cloth between coats, and if it gets orange peely, I'll wet sand it. This is only 3 coats of sealer so far - there are miles to go before these are finished, but this is a start - this will take a week, probably, because of drying times.

wuzapicker - Posted - 07/08/2012:  19:42:36

Beautiful work, Ken!

I was surprised to see the photo of the muzzleoader. Those are another of my diverse passions.

aeroweenie - Posted - 07/08/2012:  20:03:30

Great information Ken.  I didn't know that cherry required so many sealer coats - I guess the desired final finish dictates this.  I presume you are going for a glass-like surface?  What sealer do you use with a lacquer finish?

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/09/2012:  05:02:22

The sanding sealer I am using is Behlen's "vinyl sealer", which is what they have formulated to work with their "stringed instrument lacquer".  This is all nitrocellulose and is chemically compatible with the aniline dye.

The sealer, which contains a lot of "solids" does three things:

(1) Bonds itself to the wood firmly (they recommend not sanding too finely).

(2) Allows a fast build-up and is easy to sand and level because of the high solids.

(3) Assures a good bond with the topcoats.

How many coats you use depends on the kind of finish you want - I use the sealer, 220 - 240 sanding or 3M cloth between coats until the wood is smooth. This takes more coats on porous wood like the burl veneer on the peghead.  With wood like walnut  and mahogany, you have to use grain filler first.

Once it's smooth and level, then I do the topcoat with the stringed instrument lacquer. This is also "high solids", but it won't fill pores very well.

I will get this up to a near-mirror finish with rubbing compound, then I can rub it to satin with a 3M cloth if I want. I can REALLY rub it to an almost "speed neck" finish, but with the heel and peghead glossier. This makes a nice transition unlike the abrupt change you often see on "speed necks".  Lately, more people seem to want a satin neck on the playing area as opposed to high gloss. I've done 2 like that very recently.

Thing is, you have to get it up to a gloss rubbed finish first, then back down, at least that's the way I do it - you can always rub it up again if you want to.  There IS a satin lacquer out there, but I don't use it.

The Behlen chemist told me that in some factories, they undercoat with urethane to build up a thickness REALLY QUICKLY, then use NC lacquer as a topcoat which can be polished. I was surprised that NC lacquer would stick to that, and I wouldn't try that myself, but that's what they do commercially. 

dickinnorwich - Posted - 07/09/2012:  06:01:30

"....they undercoat with urethane to build up a thickness REALLY QUICKLY, then use NC lacquer as a topcoat which can be polished. I was surprised that NC lacquer would stick to that, and I wouldn't try that myself, but that's what they do commercially. "

This reminds of the old Life cereal commercial from 30 years ago where the brother's are hesitant so they get "Mikey to try it." I agree, using urethane as a base coat under lacquer is totally counter-intuitive. Let Mikey try it.

geezr - Posted - 07/09/2012:  06:33:24

Ken

Beautiful work!!!!!

Where do you you get the veneers you use in your laminations? The only thing I have found are 1/40th of an inch thick.

Jay

BPorter - Posted - 07/09/2012:  06:34:19

"Beautimous" work there Ken!

Bill Porter

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/09/2012:  14:37:06

On the maple neck, I am now on to the dark dye, which is the third in the series of overlays; you can see the difference as I brush it on.

The dye has a kind of subdued look - it won’t look right until the sealer goes on:





So, here’s the first coat of sealer - you can see what happens - you can also see how it sucks in to the grain on the resonator - it will take probably 8 or 9 coats with sanding in between to get the sealer part finished - this is #1:

I should mention that the resonator rim, the neck, and the rim inside veneer are all made from the same piece of wood - you can see the "family resemblance" between the neck and resonator rim, above.



UH-OH = *##@#**%$!

I hate to bring this up, but sometimes I screw up.  In this case, the first sealer coat revealed some problems with the way I had shaped and sanded the part of the neck on the player side between the nut and the 5th fret.  I couldn’t see this with the bare wood.

As a professional, you have to bite the bullet and fix that stuff - you don’t BS the customer “Oh yeah, I did it that way deliberately - the nut is higher so you have relief on the fingerboard blahdy blahdy”.

So I had to sand it down ( and even file it ) to get it right.   Fortunately,  aniline dye is really easy to repair before all the finish is applied. I went through the same dye sequence as before.

The bare part of the neck looks like a “speed neck” . If you actually made a neck like this, the bare part would be so much faster than the rest of the neck, you’d probably break your thumb while playing  Cannonball Mail as a result of the frictional differential, so don't try this at home.

Anyway, I fixed it - I’m safe.





A few coats of sealer, and you’d never know - no wonder they call it tiger maple:



On to the cherry neck - this one looks pretty tame compared to the maple, and it will never be as dramatic, but it will darken to a beautiful mahogany color.



I am sanding down the sanding sealer - Behlen recommends 320 for this.  You have to sand it level without breaking through to the raw wood. The sealer has stearates or talc in it, which clogs up the sandpaper.  you can scrape big drip goobers off the binding with an X-acto blade.  Until you are ABSOLUTELY beyond sanding through to the wood, you cannot wet sand it, so it’s a gradual process, We will have 8 or 9 coats of sealer before we are finished with sealer. We do not want to see ANY pores in the wood.





So, in my “outdoor spray booth”, the maple has 3 coats, and the cherry has 6. As I said, I want 8 or 9.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/11/2012:  14:50:00

 When I started this thread, I thought this would be something a lot of people would be interested in - finishing necks, but apparently not.  It hasn’t been very well read and not responded to much at all.   A parallel thread about staining maple, has gotten twice as many people reading it and 5 times more responses.  I must be doing something wrong.  I hope I’m providing useful information.



Anyway, I am going to finish this whole thing, because I started it,  we still have to do set-up, make the bridge, and a lot of other things, but I am beginning to fear that the end might be somewhat of an anticlimax.



So, anyway, I discovered a great new thing!  The auto supply places sell wet-or-dry 3M pads in different grits. and I bought one - a 320.  Behlen says sand the sanding sealer to 320 between coats, so that’s why the 320.

These things are great - they work wet, they work dry, they are flat, like a sanding block so they are IDEAL for sanding peghead veneers and resonators.

PLUS, unlike my quickly clogged sandpaper, you can wash these and clean out the residue. I love ’em!



They are just great in leveling out the sanding sealer:

.



I probably didn’t spend enough time talking about this, but finishing banjo necks and resonators is a long process, and the closest thing that comes to it is car body refinishing - many coats of primer (sanding sealer in banjos), then many coats of top coat.

Since, for every banjo made, there are umpteen million cars, the sanding technology being developed by the big companies is skewed to the cars. The NAPA stores is where you get the best sandpaper, the 3M cloths, the pads, and the rubbing compound.  In terms of the NC lacquer, the big market is furniture.  We are lucky to have “stringed instrument lacquer” at all, and by God, I use it. I don’t want it to go away from lack of interest.



We talk a lot about “wet sanding”.  Once you have enough thickness built up so that you aren’t going to sand into the wood, you can “wet sand”  the sanding sealer or top coat lacquer. This involves dipping the sandpaper into water.  Not to be crude - this is like “spit polishing”,  which those of us who have been in the military know very well.

When you are finished, there is a residue you must wipe off with a tack cloth:

.



The recommendation is:

6-9 coats of sanding sealer

6-9 coats of top coat lacquer

 all with sanding in between

I don’t do more than 3 heavy coats in a day.

Behlen recommends letting the stringed instrument lacquer dry for one week before rubbing it down, so you can see this is a 2-week thing at the least.



I am very familiar with tung oil finishes, so when I finally publish this, I will probably include that as well, although I don't use it on banjos.



I have to seal the inside of the resonators, and I will use tinted shellac for that - one coat- just to seal it. Shellac is alcohol based, just like the aniline dye, so I can tint it with the aniline dye.

Since you see into the resonator through the openings in the flange, and I am using amber semi-transparent heads, I think I have to be aware of the fact that you will see some color in there through the head - I don’t want to ignore it.  The old Gibsons were dark brown inside. I am using burgundy maroon and green laminations, PLUS, I have to use some felt inside  the resonator, where it contacts other parts. I got some brown, maroon, and green felt. So what color should I put inside the resonator?

They look pretty boring just raw - I got some pieces of colored paper:





Here’s what they look like - the difference is pretty subtle,  but I am leaning towards the burgundy - maroon.

BNJOMAKR - Posted - 07/11/2012:  16:13:12

Don't think that I'm not watching, and reading, and learning, cause I am! Thanks for all your series on banjo building!

mobyj - Posted - 07/11/2012:  16:54:13

You have a fan down under! I appreciate the meticulous detail. As an amateur builder I have learnt so much. Roll on the book!

Jim

liam_fnq - Posted - 07/12/2012:  04:38:34

Make that a second fan down under.

BPorter - Posted - 07/12/2012:  05:55:17

Ken, I am reading every word my friend and I have to add that 3M pad to my workshop for my turkey calls. I spend more time sanding and finishing than I do fabrication about the same as with instrument building.

Thanks for posting that useful information.

Bill

Shawn Hoover - Posted - 07/12/2012:  06:46:40

Great job, Ken. One minor point: my understanding is the stearates in the sealer are there to lubricate sanding, so the sandpaper would clog faster if the stearates weren't there. My reading of the text above was that the stearates make clogging worse. I'm not sure if that was your intended meaning. Backing the sandpaper with a felt or cork pad may buy you some time between clogs, but, regardless, those 3M pads look great. I will get some next time. I already go to the auto supplier (and Amazon) for high grit wet/dry sandpaper since Lowes stops around 400 or so.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/12/2012:  07:41:18

Shawn,

that's what I always thought, too - that the talc, or whatever it was in sanding sealer would lubricate the sanding. This vinyl sealer that goes with the stringed instrument lacquer, however, is different, and it actually clogs the sandpaper (and I'm using "non-clog" sandpaper), so I am imagining that the fillers in the sealer are there to fill pores, more than lubricate, and the clogging on initial dry sanding is the price you pay.  It doesn't clog 3M cloths.

I find with this vinyl sealer, that wet sanding works better and doesn't clog, so that's the way I'm going with it once I have enough build-up not to sand through. There are other nitro high solids sealers, like B-103-015, used for furniture, which act more like the familar kind, and lubricate.  I am told that they are also compatible with the stringed instrument lacquer, but are not as flexible - I have used them in the past, along with other NC laquers.

It must be that the vinyl is in there to allow more flexibility, which is important in a resonator or guitar, more so than in a table.

Anyway, I'm playing it straight and using the vinyl sealer and the stringed instrument lacquer.  I still have a bunch of cans of the other kind, which I use for other things.

Ken

Dave1climber - Posted - 07/12/2012:  08:27:46

Ken

I have read every word at least twice, keep up the wonderful work.  I think the dark green provides a nice contrast, just my thought.  

Dave

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/12/2012:  08:36:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave1climber

Ken

I have read every word at least twice, keep up the wonderful work.  I think the dark green provides a nice contrast, just my thought.  

Dave

---

Thanks,

I might do one maroon, one green. The maple banjo has green on the peghead and banding.

Dave1climber - Posted - 07/12/2012:  08:41:26

As much as I like maple, I think that green on the maple would be an excellent choice.  

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/12/2012:  08:52:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave1climber

As much as I like maple, I think that green on the maple would be an excellent choice.  

---

That's what I'll do - green in the maple resonator, maroon in the cherry one.

Crittr63 - Posted - 07/12/2012:  10:00:01

You have me looking for this thread first thing every morning. I must say your craftsmanship is great.
please continue.
Crittr

Danaher - Posted - 07/12/2012:  12:49:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey

 When I started this thread, I thought this would be something a lot of people would be interested in - finishing necks, but apparently not.  It hasn’t been very well read and not responded to much at all.   A parallel thread about staining maple, has gotten twice as many people reading it and 5 times more responses.  I must be doing something wrong.  I hope I’m providing useful information.

---

I don't know if I will ever get the tools, time, and skill to do what you describe in these threads, but I do want to thank you for them.  They are fascinating, informative, and well presented, and I appreciate you taking the time to put them together and share your knowledge.  Don't equate view counts  to value. 

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 07/12/2012:  14:22:24

But don't ya just wonder what that muzzle loader would sound like strung up to a pot. Guns and banjo's. Don't let either one get away.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/12/2012:  14:28:17

Back when I started this whole series in April, one person hoped I would explain how to do things by hand, and with simple equipment.  That hasn’t always been possible, but this finishing thread is about as low-tech as you can get;  paintbrushes, aniline dye in mayonnaise jars, and aerosol spray cans in the back yard on saw horses.  None of this requires any big equipment.



There was a lot of interest in the idea of coloring the insides of the resonators.  I must say, I really like those transluscent amber heads - they work on my PW archtop, tubaphones, and my own tonerings.  Whoever said they were “mellow” was smoking funny stuff - I think it was a catalog copywriter.



SO, just like everything else, before I can stain the insides of the resonators, I have to put the resonator attachment “lugs” or whatever you would call them in place.



I have wanted all along to attach the resonators with magnets, just like my kitchen cabinet doors, measuring cups, and other things.  I really don’t like the screw bolts and “L”  brackets on most resonators, and REALLY don’t want to drill a hole in the middle of the resonator, although I must admit, that’s a pretty elegant solution.  I spent a LOT of time turning the resonator so that it didn’t have a lathe center mark, so I don’t want to drill a hole now to attach it to the dowel stick.



I am going to use “neodymium” magnets. I think “neodymium” must be similar to “superhetrodyne”,  anyway, with a name like that, how can they fail - kind of like “Smucker’s jelly” - with a name like that, it’s got to be good.



The 3/8” x 1/8”  neodymium magnets I have ordered have a pull of 4 pounds each, so with 4 around the resonator that’s 16 pounds - the weight of 3 bricks . My cat weighs 15 pounds, and when he lays on your legs, on the bed, you can’t turn over, so I think these ought to hold the resonator on - I’m worried about getting the bloody thing off - the resonator may stay on there forever.



I located the lug positions on the resonator, marked them,  made the poplar “lugs”  with 1/8" deep 3/8" holes for the magnets, and glued them on with Grizzly “Insta-cure” CA:





Now, I mix up  a colored shellac with shellac, alcohol aniline dye, and Solar Lux. I can’t get the colors exactly the same as the paper, but I like them - the green is a little more “olive” and the burgundy gets absorbed by the cherry, and becomes a mahogany color, which looks fine. Ironically, the inside of the cherry resonator looks like the outside of the maple, but all the colors will work together.

Here is what they look like - keep in mind that these resonator interiors are not what you would call a finish:

I will put colored felt on the ledge where the flange sits, and where the heel of the neck fits.



Besides that, the cherry neck and resonator has all the lacquer it needs, and I am beyond the sealer and on to the top coat on the the maple one - you can see a nice straight highlight, which is what you want. I have about 6 more coats of lacquer to go on these - 2 more days, then a week of drying:



It’s kind of amazing how much darker the cherry has become already - it will keep getting darker.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/12/2012:  14:57:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by MOUNTAIN GOAT

But don't ya just wonder what that muzzle loader would sound like strung up to a pot. Guns and banjo's. Don't let either one get away.

---

Those old muzzle loaders are amazing - all hand made. As a kid in Harrisburg, PA, I used to go the State museum and look at the collection there all the time - on\ce a week. They have Daniel Boone's rifle there. Between the wood and the brass, making one has similar skills to banjo making. The barrels were made in Lancaster County, totally by hand - iron was forged by a blacksmith, wrapped around a mandrel, forge welded, filed down, then they had a jig that would twist an inside "rifling" mechanism, They are accurate at several hundred yards. Pieces of art.

They were all made in PA, but became known as "Kentucky rifles" because of where they were used.

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 07/12/2012:  16:56:50

Makin a banjo is very similar to a gun. Been building 1,000 yard single shots forever and I can appreciate good stock work which is very similar to a banjo neck. So why not put em together?
Funny thing just like a gun stock, that fiddle back maple looks great, is a bear to get straight, makes an in accurate gun, and a banjo would sound better with straight grain and be more stable.

Dave1climber - Posted - 07/13/2012:  12:38:44

Ken

I like the green, and really like the magnets.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/13/2012:  14:27:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave1climber

Ken

I like the green, and really like the magnets.

---

Dave,thanks!

I'm glad you like the green - I like it, too, but I also like that mahogany color - so I'll have one of each.  I have green and burgundy felt to line the ledges.

I got the magnets today, and they fit perfectly in the holes in the little lugs. in fact, I stuck one in one hole with no super glue, and I can't get it out, even with dental picks - so there it stays.

I have to figure out some piece of ferrous metal to super glue or soft solder on to the back of the resonator flanges where the magnets are. to give them something to stick to - small washers will work, but I would like something a little more elegant.  I need 4 little triangular pieces - I was thinking glazer's points.

I will post pictures of this as soon as I get the ferrous pieces on the back of the flange. I have high hopes about this - it's going to work - when I put a little washer, like the kind that comes with bracket shoes onto one of those magnets, I can hardly get it off.

It occurred to me, that magnets might be the ideal way to attach the armrest - 98 percent of all hooks are steel, and I have some little rectangular ceramic magnets like the kind that go into cabinet latches, which I could super glue onto the the inside of the armrest in the correct position, flanking two hooks. It would stick like glue, but you could pop the armrest off whenever you wanted to.

I'm going to try one - it might be the ultimate way to attach an armrest.

Dave1climber - Posted - 07/13/2012:  15:06:45

Ken

As a side note I used magnets to hold on a surround on a hot tub, easy access, and no visible fasteners.  

Magnets on the armrest will allow for easy adjustment of the position of it.

Dave

manomusic - Posted - 07/13/2012:  16:09:42

Hi Ken,

Those necks look amazing, personally I like the look of the cherry but that is obviously down to personal preference.

I have a couple of questions as a complete novice to building which I hope will be helpful as you compile info for the book 

I know they'll definitely help me as the more detail the better the understanding of the processes involved.

What type of brush do you use to apply the "barrier coat" (as in bristle type) and do you try to stay to the inside or outside line of the buffer line?

Would it be possible to provide more info on how to mix the dyes to achieve desired results or recommend a good book on finishing?

When you talk about taking the gloss finish back to a satin finish, what grit sand paper would you recommend?

Thanks again Ken for some invaluable information,

Neil

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/14/2012:  05:32:06

Neil,

Here is a picture of the brushes I use. They are "so called" sable brushes, round, with pointed tips, which you get at an art supply store. You should have a couple of sizes.

All I can stay is try to keep the finish you are brushing within the dark purfling line because if you get it out onto the neck proper, it will resist the stain, and you'll see it.

Here's a picture of that on an old resonator, which has light outer rings on the purfling, making it much harder to do that it would be with dark outer rings:

As for the satin finish, I rub the lacquer down with compound into a shiny finish, then rub that satin with a 3M cloth - It makes a beautiful smooth satin finish that is easy to play. I often leave the heel and peghead glossy, although a satin peg head doesn't attract as much dust as a black shiny one.   This isn't a very good picture - I will probably do this on one of the banjos for this thread, and show it better:

manomusic - Posted - 07/14/2012:  15:06:45

Thanks Ken 

Patrick Hanna - Posted - 07/15/2012:  10:03:27

I've been following, too, Ken. In fact, I've been following every thread in this series and I've saved most of them as web archives so I can go back and study them from time to time. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are an extremely generous person to share all of these methods of work with us. Further, you have a natural ability to explain and demonstrate with your diagrams and photos. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of this. I'm quite certain every reader feels just as I do. Many thanks!

Patrick

bjango53 - Posted - 07/15/2012:  12:04:09

Thanks for the great words and pictures Ken.

The magnet idea is a winner, as I hate the thumb screws.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/15/2012:  14:37:57

I always have to go back and see what I was doing the last time I posted something.

This should be another thread :" what you do while you are waiting for the lacquer to cure" - there will be more stuff - I'm putting a patina on "gold plated" hooks and nuts.

Actually, I got the  “neodimium” (my wife says it sounds way too much like “Neil Diamond”) magnets - anyway, while humming “cracklin’ Rosie get on board”, down in the shop where she can't hear, I put the magnets into the holes and glued them in with CA. Grizzly "insta-cure"



I had to figure out how to make the part that the magnet actually sticks to.   

Washers have holes in the middle, which eliminate some surface area.  You used to be able to get little triangular “glazing points” for replacing window glass, but the new ones won’t work.

I wound up cutting plated fender washers into quarters and grinding them down into a size that would work. NOT ELEGANT AT ALL. If I like this design, and make more, I have to come up with something better than this - BUT, to quote the old VW ads- It's ugly, but it gets you there:





Now I have to put a nice felt lining in the inside of the rim where the resonator fits. When I was a kid, felt was different than it is now - wha hoppen?  This “felt”  I got at the fabric store doesn’t even have the structural integrity to be cut with a brand new X-acto, so I had to cut it with scissors.  I’m going to be honest - I had to get my wife to cut it with her sewing scissors that I am not allowed to touch.



Then I  glued it in with super 77:

Originally, I was going to use colored felt- I didn’t like the maroon, ripped it out and used black - my advice - use black felt.

Anyway here are the two mating surfaces in the “maroon period”, when I made the image:





So, I put the resonator on - WHAM! it snaps right on





Not wanting to leave well enough alone, I think  “ If this works for the resonator, why won’t it work for the armrest?

 So I make another armrest. I tried a few different ideas.

It works! but not perfectly.





I hate armrests, as I have said, so that one that snaps on, I would LOVE.  I  am still developing this, because it’s ”not there” yet, but I think the answer will be a self adhesive magnetic strip that  fits inside the back of the armrest. It would stick onto 6 hooks.  Tomorrow, I will order the material and make another armrest.  There are many people out there who make this stuff, and I have to get the right one - flexible, high magnetic pull, self adhesive (PSA) probably 1/2”- 3/4  inch wide. I think that 1/8” thickness has the strongest magnetic pull.

In a couple of days, I will have figured this out (and I KNOW it will work) - meanwhile, the lacquer is still curing.

 

Quickstep192 - Posted - 07/15/2012:  15:20:41

I have some questions about your finishing schedule.

It looks like you put on a wet coat of yellow dye,
then let it dry,
then buffed with the ScotchBrite pad,
then the coat of amber dye,
then let it dry
then buffed with the ScotchBrite pad
then the coat of brown dye.
then let it dry
then buffed with the ScotchBrite pad

then the finish.

Are the coats of dye, just dye? No shellac mixed in or anything like that?
How long do you let the dye dry? When I've tried to layer like this, it seems like it all just blended together, but on yours, it just POPS!

By the way, I've enjoyed this series immensely. Thanks for sharing.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/15/2012:  16:00:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quickstep192

I have some questions about your finishing schedule.



It looks like you put on a wet coat of yellow dye,

then let it dry,

then buffed with the ScotchBrite pad,

then the coat of amber dye,

then let it dry

then buffed with the ScotchBrite pad

then the coat of brown dye.

then let it dry

then buffed with the ScotchBrite pad



then the finish.



Are the coats of dye, just dye? No shellac mixed in or anything like that?

How long do you let the dye dry? When I've tried to layer like this, it seems like it all just blended together, but on yours, it just POPS!



By the way, I've enjoyed this series immensely. Thanks for sharing.

 

---

YES,  you are seeing it correctly.

I put on (usually with a brush) a coat of yellow dye, and this is thinned down - I may put on 2 if it's sinking in more somewhere. I let it dry for maybe 1/2 hour or until I don't see dark "wet spots", then I rub it down with the 3M cloth- usually the gray one. At this point, I can touch up the yellow if I need to.  Then I brush on on the  amber one - same deal - let it dry, rub it down, touch it up if needed. I let the amber one dry longer.

Then, usually the next day, I do the final brown one, and usually 2 coats of that, or whatever it takes. It will look dull without the sealer.

After the first coat of sealer, which I also rub down, you can still put more dye on if you need to, but after that, it doesn't take as well.

There is no shellac or anything mixed in with it - just dye mixed with denatured alcohol ( I also mix some Solar Lux, usually "American Walnut" in with it to get the brown.

I have noticed that they probably DO blend together up to a point, and the whole thing gets a little lighter by the time you are finished.

I think that the very first yellow coat you put on the bare wood is very important, because it's the one that sinks in the most. If I was making cherry look like like mahogany, I would use straight orange for that.  In truth, I use Moser's orange as a component to make the yellow - it's a very strong color. I don't use sandpaper on the dye coats or the first 2 coats of sealer - just the 3M cloths, and I am doing this over a 220-260 (320 at the max) surface for good sealer bonding.

Moser makes MANY colors - you have to experiment on srcap pieces of wood.

It helps a lot if the wood grain is properly oriented.

taz4dad - Posted - 07/15/2012:  17:30:17

Ken,

Have you looked at some of the piano repair sites? They carry a variety of felts of various densities.

I have used some of the industrial supply places for hardware and materials. Mcmaster Carr is one I have used for a variety materials and parts.

rudy - Posted - 07/15/2012:  17:32:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey



I always have to go back and see what I was doing the last time I posted something.

This should be another thread :" what you do while you are waiting for the lacquer to cure" - there will be more stuff - I'm putting a patina on "gold plated" hooks and nuts.

Actually, I got the  “neodimium” (my wife says it sounds way too much like “Neil Diamond”) magnets - anyway, while humming “cracklin’ Rosie get on board”, down in the shop where she can't hear, I put the magnets into the holes and glued them in with CA. Grizzly "insta-cure"



I had to figure out how to make the part that the magnet actually sticks to.   

Washers have holes in the middle, which eliminate some surface area.  You used to be able to get little triangular “glazing points” for replacing window glass, but the new ones won’t work.

I wound up cutting plated fender washers into quarters and grinding them down into a size that would work. NOT ELEGANT AT ALL. If I like this design, and make more, I have to come up with something better than this - BUT, to quote the old VW ads- It's ugly, but it gets you there:





Now I have to put a nice felt lining in the inside of the rim where the resonator fits. When I was a kid, felt was different than it is now - wha hoppen?  This “felt”  I got at the fabric store doesn’t even have the structural integrity to be cut with a brand new X-acto, so I had to cut it with scissors.  I’m going to be honest - I had to get my wife to cut it with her sewing scissors that I am not allowed to touch.



Then I  glued it in with super 77:

Originally, I was going to use colored felt- I didn’t like the maroon, ripped it out and used black - my advice - use black felt.

Anyway here are the two mating surfaces in the “maroon period”, when I made the image:





So, I put the resonator on - WHAM! it snaps right on





Not wanting to leave well enough alone, I think  “ If this works for the resonator, why won’t it work for the armrest?

 So I make another armrest. I tried a few different ideas.

It works! but not perfectly.





I hate armrests, as I have said, so that one that snaps on, I would LOVE.  I  am still developing this, because it’s ”not there” yet, but I think the answer will be a self adhesive magnetic strip that  fits inside the back of the armrest. It would stick onto 6 hooks.  Tomorrow, I will order the material and make another armrest.  There are many people out there who make this stuff, and I have to get the right one - flexible, high magnetic pull, self adhesive (PSA) probably 1/2”- 3/4  inch wide. I think that 1/8” thickness has the strongest magnetic pull.

In a couple of days, I will have figured this out (and I KNOW it will work) - meanwhile, the lacquer is still curing.

 

---

 Ken,  You could use a second magnet, these are also available in a much thinner (1/16" thick) variety.  They are sold by the ten pack at my local Menard's.  They would be self-aligning!

aeroweenie - Posted - 07/15/2012:  19:05:27

Ken, earlier you mentioned being concerned about removing the resonator because the ND magnets were so strong.  Problem or not?  Great idea to mount the armrest with magnets!  I've mounted wooden armrests with carpet tape, this works fine as long as the tension hoop is a bit above the head, but it is a clumsy solution compared to magnets.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/16/2012:  05:53:33

Rudy,

My first attempt, which I didn't post was using little rectangular kitchen cabinet latch magnetic strips, about 3/32" x 3/32" x1",  

I super glued them into the back of the armrest in pairs with a 3/32+  space in between so that they flanked 2 of the hooks. 

This worked in theory, but when I got it all assembled, because of the polarity of the magnets it set up a kind of weird "force field" like in Star Trek, and it actually repelled the armrest.  In the picture, you can see the vestigial remains of where I had them glued on. They were hard to glue on because they wanted to come together.  Anyway, I got them glued on, but it didn't work.

That made me go on to the Neodymium ones. They work, but you have to get it positioned exactly right, and it moves a little - doesn't come off, just moves.

Today, I will order some PSA backed magnetic strip material with the correct polarity. I will attach a strip to the back of the armrest, and if I make the curve of the armrest back exactly right, I will get a 1" flat contact on 6 hooks. That will keep it from moving and should be problem free. I have to consult with the supplier as to the best thickness - as the thickness increases, so does the magnetic strength.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/16/2012:  05:58:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by aeroweenie

Ken, earlier you mentioned being concerned about removing the resonator because the ND magnets were so strong.  Problem or not?  Great idea to mount the armrest with magnets!  I've mounted wooden armrests with carpet tape, this works fine as long as the tension hoop is a bit above the head, but it is a clumsy solution compared to magnets.

---

There is NO PROBLEM with the resonator- it goes right on and can be popped of with a moderate effort - you just pry it off from one side. It would never come off during normal use, so I think the resonator is a success.

I just posted some info about the armrest problem, which I'm sure I will be able to solve.

Shawn Hoover - Posted - 07/17/2012:  07:08:32

It's always a pleasure to observe your art skills and design process brought to bear on these banjos, in both (at least) the aesthetic and pragmatic senses. To that end, could you say a few words about the brushes you use for applying dye? I am interested in learning to brush shellac and possibly dye. By all accounts you need "good" brushes or artist's brushes, but that's pretty much where the suggestions stop.

rudy - Posted - 07/17/2012:  07:58:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey



Rudy,

My first attempt, which I didn't post was using little rectangular kitchen cabinet latch magnetic strips, about 3/32" x 3/32" x1",  

I super glued them into the back of the armrest in pairs with a 3/32+  space in between so that they flanked 2 of the hooks. 

 Hi Ken, I should have clarified in my original posting that I was only referring to the resonator mounting, since you thought that the cut up washer was a less than desirable solution.

I would imagine that the arm rest could be done using the double magnet concept, too.  Bond two magnets to the armrest, place another pair over the bonded set after they have dried, locate on the tension band and carefully run a thin bead at the free magnet's edge to let capillary action suck it between the magnet and the tension band surface.  Obviously you would have to select magnets based on their thickness so the arm rest would be properly spaced out from the tension band, and also be careful not to let the cyanoacrolate suck itself between the magnet surfaces, converting an easily removable arm rest to the "removable with large hammer" variety.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/17/2012:  12:53:28

I ordered the magnetic strip - 1" wide x 1/16" thick with PSA rubber adhesive - it may still arrive today.   I made another armrest, which has the inside surface of the back offset from the hooks by 1/16", and I made it a LITTLE longer, so that it will contact 6 hooks.

We'll see. If it doesn't work, the next step in the experiment would be to use "high energy" magnetic strips, which are stronger, but you have to buy a 100 foot roll, which would be enough to make 200 armrests. I started with the "normal" stuff. I don't want to be warning people not to play the banjo if they have a pacemaker.  So far there are no safety warnings on banjos, other than picking some of them up cause cause a hernia, so I don't want to start a trend.

Maybe these neodymiums could deprogram digital tuners - that would be a hoot!  "sorry folks, this performance is over because the banjo player can't tune his banjo, and we're all keeping our distance."

fungusgeek - Posted - 07/18/2012:  14:08:18

About that cherry.
Are you aware that you can get the "aged" color of cherry almost instantly using lye (sodium hydroxide)?
Get pure lye, the old Red Devil stuff may still be carried by some hardware store around you.
Using rubber gloves and good protection (the stuff can be pretty caustic) mix a little with water. You don't need much, and the more concentrated it is the darker the result.
Wipe onto the cherry. It will amost instantly go dark red/mahogany in color, as if it was 100 years old.
You can wipe with a little white vinegar to neutralise the lye, but I don't think it is really necessary.
The color is very permenent, and goes a fair ways into the wood. The water will raise the grain a bit, but sanding off the fuzz will not sand off the color. I remember that my wife and I put together a cherry cradle kit, and using the lye trick, when it was done it looked like an antique (though the finish was not buggered up).

Spitfire-Smith - Posted - 07/18/2012:  15:42:20

Once again my friend, great post! I can't wait for the book.

hskrfn - Posted - 07/18/2012:  16:15:52

Please don't get discouraged. These are all great posts. I have very little experience in finishing wood and this post was a tremendous help. I am a novice builder. I have always found when learning from the more experienced if they share their mistakes and poor outcomes it is a great help. Thank you again for sharing.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 07/22/2012:  16:46:15

The magnetic thing was a bust - Thank heavens I didn't buy the more expensive one in a 100 foot strip. I wound up making plastic snap-on parts from high impact polystrene, which I bent with an ordinary heat gun. After another failure with CA, I am gluing them on with epoxy, not CA.

Anyway, it works like a dream:

Now on to the finish.

I am lucky - when I was living in Brooklyn in the early 60s, and trying to build a guitar for my thesis in Industrial Design at Pratt, I struck up a friendship with John D'Angelico on Kenmare St. in Manhattan.

His advice about how to rub down a finish was "you have to drink a 6-pack of beer" and keep rubbing until it's done - good advice.

The lacquer has now cured for a week. You have to wet sand it down with 600 "wet-or"  dry sandpaper until it's "level:

After that, you have to rub it down with rubbing compound - this is where the beer comes in"

I am not after a "wet-look" finish, just a "rubbed lacquer" finish, which looks like this:

I do the same thing on the cherry resonator:

The cherry is not as spectacular as the curly maple, but it's beautiful, and will keep getting darker.

I do the same with the necks:

All the pieces are now finished, waiting for the set-up - you can see some dust on the cherry resonator - I should have vacuumed.  In the case of the cherry, the neck, resonator, and rim interior are all made from the same board:

It's getting close  - I have to make the bridges and do the setup next- omigod.  I have not been able to play for 5 weeks with my broken finger. I want to make sound files when the time comes, and it's a-comin". Wish I knew someone around here who could play clawhammer.

manomusic - Posted - 07/22/2012:  23:56:05

Beautiful work Ken, once again, I really like the look of the cherry but I've always liked that "honey" looking wood.
That's a great reason to buy a six pack mate :)