uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/23/2012:  15:32:34

As I said in the beginning of this series, there have been a lot of tone rings over the years, and they have been either cast (Gibson model), bent and fabricated with multiple parts ( Fairbanks Vega Paramount Orpheum et al model) or spun and fabricated  (Bacon and others model).



I am DELIBERATELY trying to make something here that can BEST (preferably ONLY) be made by a hand process. I am a custom builder and make banjos one-at-a -time. I am not trying to educate the big companies who will steal my ideas and mass produce them. (sorry).



My idea here, and what, I guess I’m “bringing to the party” is the idea to fabricate a tone ring by brazing together metal parts that are too heavy to be spun, not easily bent, and lighter than castings.  I don’t think anyone else has done that, at least I don’t know about it- everything has been done before.



My thesis is that the stresses built up by brazing and uneven annealing will enhance the timbre in the way work hardening is the thing that gives cymbals a certain distinctive sound.  So far that’s been true.

My design model is for them to be supported on the rim  only by the skirt, so that the inner edge is “free”For this project, I’m going to make 3 different tone rings, maybe a 4th.







I’m going to make my U-Tube™ tone ring (which I have been making for 3 years, with satisfied customers) in both a brass and nickel silver version to see what difference there might be, and I’m going to debut my newest design, the KØNE11™.   I’ll test them side by side to see what’s what. here is a pic of  rough versions and an exploded view of the parts of both:











The first step is to make patterns of the metal pieces. You can either print these out with a computer or make cardboard or plastic templates to trace onto the metal.



I’m going to start with the U-Tube:

These tone rings are in the tradition of fabrication rather than casting and machining. I have no machine lathe - I have to make these VERY round and accurate to final dimension, as close to dead nuts as I can, because they will not be machined - What I make is what I get.  Fortunately, they are a little flexible.

I make patterns with a computer and paste them on to the brass or nickel silver with Super 77 :









Then I cut them out with a bandsaw  and sand them with a disc sander and spindle sander:











You have to compare the parts to the drawing - it has to be a perfect circle, or you’re  screwed:







You silver solder the pieces together and pickle the circle:

i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy...dered.jpg" />





Next will be the actual assembly and brazing of the pieces.



 

Dave1climber - Posted - 04/23/2012:  17:52:45

Ken

Looking good, anticipating the next step with eagerness.

Dave

Waltj - Posted - 04/23/2012:  17:56:46

Thank you

Walt

Dexter - Posted - 04/23/2012:  19:26:04

As a beginning amature banjo builder I find your posts extremely educational and helpful...Thanks, Rick

Will1717 - Posted - 04/23/2012:  21:46:40

Ken:

How do you produce such great drawings to explain what you do? Is it a CAD system or a graphic design software package? I really look forward to your fantastic forum postings. Beautiful work to say the least! Wish we lived a lot closer.

Bill Rickard

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/24/2012:  05:10:15

Bill,

Thanks!

No rocket science or special software - I have been using Adobe illustrator and Photoshop ever since they existed, and after years of designing products, catalogs, and packages, I have gotten used to those programs, but most of the time, start with a pencil and paper.  I think more about design than anything else.

I have a CAD plug-in for Adobe illustrator, which is helpful.  There's so much instrument stuff that you can do with a computer, like fret spacing calculations, fingerboard layouts, template making, inlay patterns, all kinds of calculations, and making pictures to see what something is going to look like.

I am always amazed at the things YOU do, and have one of your tubaphones on a banjo I built probably 4 years ago, a great sounding banjo.

Ken

bordertownbrown - Posted - 04/24/2012:  12:38:03

Ken, What a great project!

I've been too busy lately to contribute much of anything on BHO but wanted to take the time to thank you for such a stellar presentation. Again I can't wait to see your works go to print.

Richard

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/24/2012:  13:30:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by bordertownbrown

Ken, What a great project!

I've been too busy lately to contribute much of anything on BHO but wanted to take the time to thank you for such a stellar presentation. Again I can't wait to see your works go to print.

Richard

---

Thanks, Richard.

I really appreciate that.  Obviously, all the drawings and photos I'm posting on these threads are my way of getting my information organized in a way that can be made in to a book.

You had said that you wanted to learn more about silver soldering.  I hope what I posted was helpful.  I'm going to post more about silver soldering this evening on the tone ring thread.

Ken

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/24/2012:  15:29:21

So we have all the pieces cut out and aligned.

The outer ring is silver soldered into a circle, checked and corrected so that it  is as close to a perfect circle as we can get.

Wood moves, so we are trying to create a wood/metal composite that has a tiny bit of flexibility.



Because the inner web is as perfect a circle as we can get, it forces the outer ring into a “perfect” circle as well.

I’m not sure I did an adequate job of explaining the  difference between “cast in bronze and machined”

and “bent and fabricated”. They are different.

The parts have to be “dry-fitted” (I am showing the brass one and the nickel silver one interchangeably, because there is no difference in the fabrication method).:



After the  parts are “dry fitted”  (and this should take some forcing), they are brazed or silver soldered together. You want to flow a lot of metal into the corner to create a “fillet”. It looks ugly in the corner, but you clean it up- you will NEVER SEE THIS once it is finished and installed:



THEN, you force fit the inner ring. Since I often drill holes in them, I attempted to pre-drill the holes in a couple of these, which you can see.

Once forced together into a “dry fit”, you paint the corner with flux and silver solder it:



Then you polish it:





Next I’ll go on to the Kone 11 design.

 

aeroweenie - Posted - 04/24/2012:  19:58:21

Interesting process, thanks for showing it to us!

bder - Posted - 04/25/2012:  06:40:31

I can hardly wait to see how this turns out! I was originally a drummer and like the idea of this, very similar to hand cast cymbals.

Jonnycake White - Posted - 04/25/2012:  08:33:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey

You silver solder the pieces together and pickle the circle:

i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy...dered.jpg" />





Next will be the actual assembly and brazing of the pieces.



 

---

 What is "pickling" the circle?  Obviously dunking it some solution, but what is the solution and what does it accomplish?

This great by the way.  I love the detailed explanations.  

davey - Posted - 04/25/2012:  09:12:47

I have always been fascinated by this subject. Really interesting stuff, looking forward to the finished article.

Thanks for posting 

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/25/2012:  10:44:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonnycake White

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey

You silver solder the pieces together and pickle the circle:

i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy...dered.jpg" />





Next will be the actual assembly and brazing of the pieces.



 

---

 What is "pickling" the circle?  Obviously dunking it some solution, but what is the solution and what does it accomplish?

This great by the way.  I love the detailed explanations.  

---

In "Building a Banjo 4 - the metal parts, I explain the pickling and silver soldering. Pickle is an acid bath that cleans the scale off the metal parts:

banjohangout.org/topic/233997

bordertownbrown - Posted - 04/25/2012:  15:12:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey

quote:

---

Originally posted by bordertownbrown

Ken, What a great project!

I've been too busy lately to contribute much of anything on BHO but wanted to take the time to thank you for such a stellar presentation. Again I can't wait to see your works go to print.

Richard

---

Thanks, Richard.

I really appreciate that.  Obviously, all the drawings and photos I'm posting on these threads are my way of getting my information organized in a way that can be made in to a book.

You had said that you wanted to learn more about silver soldering.  I hope what I posted was helpful.  I'm going to post more about silver soldering this evening on the tone ring thread.

Ken

 

---

 Ken,

Yes your info will be of great help soon as I find time to roll some hoops and start soldering.

What kind of torch are you using?

Thanks,

Richard

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/25/2012:  15:30:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by bordertownbrown

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey

quote:

---

Originally posted by bordertownbrown

Ken, What a great project!

I've been too busy lately to contribute much of anything on BHO but wanted to take the time to thank you for such a stellar presentation. Again I can't wait to see your works go to print.

Richard

---

Thanks, Richard.

I really appreciate that.  Obviously, all the drawings and photos I'm posting on these threads are my way of getting my information organized in a way that can be made in to a book.

You had said that you wanted to learn more about silver soldering.  I hope what I posted was helpful.  I'm going to post more about silver soldering this evening on the tone ring thread.

Ken

 

---

 Ken,

 

Yes your info will be of great help soon as I find time to roll some hoops and start soldering.

What kind of torch are you using?

Thanks,

Richard

---

I'm using mapp gas with a very high temp head.  I'll try to get more specific info. I tried an elaborate oxy-mapp gas setup and it didn't work - just made everything black. Of course oxy-acetylene would work the best. You have to fool with it and see what you like. It's more art than science, which is why I like it - think of it as jewelery making.

It's like the old joke where the guy was walking down 8th Avenue in NY, and asked the street musician "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" The musician said "Practice, man, practice".

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/25/2012:  16:21:54

Someone emailed me privately, and wanted to know if I knew what these tone rings would sound like.

In the case of the U-tube, Yes, I do, and I have some happy customers.  Here's a short Youtube of this tone ring ( a nickel silver one) with a cherry rim - sorry for my bad playing:

youtube.com/watch?v=V_aXHbO7kA4

As for the one I am about to show, the "Kone 11", I have no idea what this one will sound like, but I'm optimistic.

As with the U-tube, you have to make design patterns, test it out with cardboard or Bristol board before you cut the brass - Bristol board is a lot cheaper than brass. If it works with Bristol board, it will work with brass

Then we cut out the pieces - a 7/8: x  36" strip of .102" brass for the skirt, and a .75" arc for the "cone":

Then, using the "ought -to-be-better" HF ring roller, I roll the inner cone:

And here you can see it next to the disposable Bristol board pattern:

It's a little tough to explain - it's 3-dimensional. Try it with paper and figure out a pattern:

Then you dry-fit it with the outer ring - you force it into place, which guarantees that it will be round - check it with a drawing:

Notice the orange dead blow hammer - you have to bang it into submission

Then you braze it, and you want a lot of flow in the joint:

This is a very stressed assembly, as is the U-tube, which I explained before. It is not at rest, and has an "angst" like hand-made cymbals. Hard to explain.

So, Now I have 3 tone rings - a nickel silver "U-tube", a brass "U-tube" and a brass "Kone 11".

I forgot to mention - these all have a 1/4" unsoldered brass hoop that sits on top.

Here's what it  looks like on the Kone 11

Here's a comparison of it with the U-tube

They all ring at different notes and have different timbres, which you can control by the thickness and type of metal, as well as dimension, which I will post sound files of.

Of course, the way these are combined with the rims is the real essence of what I'm showing here.

Waltj - Posted - 04/25/2012:  18:24:40

I've made it at least an everyday thing to check this forum for your new information. Thanks

Walt

Will1717 - Posted - 04/25/2012:  20:31:14

Ken:

Beautiful work! Any chance that your looking for a job?? I know of this real nice shop up in Canada that could really use your talent! It's not too bad up here after the snow melts and the mosquitos die down a little.

Were you a metal guy in your earlier life, or did you just appear in this world with a natural talent to work with metals? I really admire how you seem to get the job done by thinking outside the box, without a full shop of metal working equipment and automation. Plus your producing some real professional results! There are lots of people out there that make a living working with metals that would have a hard time coming close to what you're producing. Again, beautiful work!

Bill Rickard 

Shawn Hoover - Posted - 04/26/2012:  06:41:10

Will1717, no kidding, anyone would be lucky to employ Ken. This metalwork is beautiful, and I've not seen anything like it on this forum or anywhere else online. That alone is impressive, but throw in his computer and of course woodworking skills, and, oh, a career's worth of design experience, and he's got quite a package. I'm really looking forward to this book.

Waltj - Posted - 04/26/2012:  17:51:52

This post turned it into a hot topic

Walt

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/26/2012:  18:14:06

Thanks, everyone,

I have company, so I can't write anything right now.

I will continue this soon.

Ken

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/27/2012:  14:14:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by Will1717

Ken:

Beautiful work! Any chance that your looking for a job?? I know of this real nice shop up in Canada that could really use your talent! It's not too bad up here after the snow melts and the mosquitos die down a little.

Were you a metal guy in your earlier life, or did you just appear in this world with a natural talent to work with metals? I really admire how you seem to get the job done by thinking outside the box, without a full shop of metal working equipment and automation. Plus your producing some real professional results! There are lots of people out there that make a living working with metals that would have a hard time coming close to what you're producing. Again, beautiful work!

Bill Rickard 

---

Bill,

Thanks for the kind comments! - I have the greatest amount of respect for what you are doing, and I am familiar with the mosquitoes up there.

I am not a metal worker - more of a woodworker, but I come from a pattern-making tradition because of my industrial design background and career.  I have had to make models and prototypes in every material imaginable - wood, plastic, metal, plaster, ceramic, rubber, etc. One of my oldest clients was a foundry - Right now I'm working on injection molded plastic products.

I have spent a lifetime working with factories around the world developing consumer products, many of which were not anything I actually would use.

You can see some of the stuff I have designed on my LeVan Design website:  levandesign.com

What I always wanted to do was to design and build banjos (and if anyone in that biz had offered me a job 35 years ago, I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat), so that's what I am doing, and I'm writing about it - I have written several technical books about architecture.

If anything ever comes up that I can help you with, let me know - I love what you do.

Ken

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/28/2012:  09:39:41

I'm about to go on to the next thing, which will be to assemble the pots (I still have to make resonator flanges)

Before I do that, I thought I'd pose sounds of the various tone rings making a "ding" - a "ring-ding" I guess.

The brass U-tube without the brass ring on top weighs 32.7 oz. and rings an A#

The nickel silver U-tube, weighs 29.5 oz and rings a C.

The sound of the nickel silver is different than the brass.

The Kone 11 one weighs 33.3 oz and rings a G# - this one is less of a chime and more of a "cymbal" , probably because of the shape.  It's also harder to actually ring

For what it's worth, I rang the bracket band, which is an A.  There's no escaping that the bracket band is part of the total sound of the pot, and it weighs 26 oz. so it adds considerably to the mass.

So, for what it's worth, here are the "ring-dings":

U-tube brass ring

U-tube nickel silver

Kone 11 brass ring

bracket band

aeroweenie - Posted - 04/28/2012:  10:02:11

Very different sound characteristics between the U-tubes and the Kone!  Do you have a good feel for how tone differences between the bare rings carry over to the complete banjo?  I look forward to hearing installed comparisons. 

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/28/2012:  10:19:34

As soon as you put them onto the rim, everything changes and you get a composite sound.  I like them to be pretty tight, but I am cantilevering them out over the inside of the rim.  If they sat flat on the top, I'd want them to be a little looser. On my archtop Granada, the skirt is more of a slip fit, loose in the winter, tight in the summer.

Every component contributes something to the sound, including the bracket band, and the neck.

At the end of this project, We'll be able to see what happens with different combinations of parts.

Dave1climber - Posted - 04/28/2012:  10:45:29

The brass u-tube is the most pleasing to me.  I will be interested to hear how that compares to the assembled sound.

I was wondering about the sound and weight of the tension band.

Dave

taiger - Posted - 04/28/2012:  11:12:21

Thanks for the great info.  This seems to be the most extensive and complete banjo hardware fabrication I've seen.   I look forward to more of your posts.  One quick question.  Im a bit confused on whether your using silver solder, silver brazing rod, or both at different times.  I checked out earlier post on metal fab and thought you said silver brazing rod.  Can u clear up confusion?  Thanks again.  

uncle.fogey - Posted - 04/28/2012:  11:33:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by taiger

Thanks for the great info.  This seems to be the most extensive and complete banjo hardware fabrication I've seen.   I look forward to more of your posts.  One quick question.  Im a bit confused on whether your using silver solder, silver brazing rod, or both at different times.  I checked out earlier post on metal fab and thought you said silver brazing rod.  Can u clear up confusion?  Thanks again.  

---

I have always called it silver solder. The material I use is called silver brazing alloy, and I have heard it referred to as brazing as well as silver soldering. The operating temperature is from 1100 - 1400F - WAY hotter than regular solder.

To create confusion, there is a material called "silver solder" that is just nothing more than lead-free soft solder, used for plumbing - it's a thing that has come about since lead solder was banned for plumbing use.

I use a NSF approved "silver brazing alloy" that is used to repair stainless steel restaurant equipment and to braze tubing in refrigeration equipment.  It is also used in the brass instrument biz for various woodwind keys etc.

I think brazing and silver soldering are the same thing by different names, and there are brazing rods that don't contain any silver.

taiger - Posted - 04/28/2012:  11:42:48

Thanks for clearing that up ken.   Do u purchase your brazing supplies online?