MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 02/28/2012:  16:13:54

I was following along on the tail piece adjustment topic and saw Scott  ( desert rose) give a link to  http://www.banjoholler.org/forum/index.php?topic=646.0

I went and read this very good explanation for set up.  So I went and tried it.  I had used Steve Davis' method before setting head at a quarter.  I first adjusted the tension ring as even as possible.  I made a gauge to check it. After loosening everything up and getting the tension ring even, the gap with a ten inch straight edge was .1875 inches.  It still sounded pretty darn good.  I tightened it up in 1/8 turn increments.  .17 gap was little better.  .15 gap was a little better yet.  .138 gap strings 1 & 2 much brighter, others the same.  .118 gap strings 1 & 5 were much brighter and piercing with the rest of the strings between the same and maybe a hair better.  .100 gap strings 1 & 2 brighter and not so piercing, strings 3 & 4 a little dull.  .090 gap all strings brighter with 1,2 & 5 the most improvement.  I went around and evened out the torque at this point and all the strings were brighter and this was the loudest the banjo has ever been.  I went to .070 gap ( a quarter ) and everything got worst, but not by much, with strings 2 & 3 having the biggest negative effect.  Went back to ..090 gap, checked for even torque and checked the height of the tension ring.  The tension ring doesn't vary more than .015 all the way around.  I guess the .090 gap ended up the clearest for all strings, the brightest and loudest.  Way up the neck it kind of hurts my ears it is so crisp.  Anything off this adjustment starts making one or more strings sound dull.  So as Scott said, one measurement does not fit all, but it probably is a good general place to start.  Don't take my measurements for your banjo.  Go find out what makes your banjo the best, while my ears recover.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/28/2012:  16:25:05

Good for you, for actually trying it. So now you know the secret- just listen to the sound!

kmwaters - Posted - 02/28/2012:  16:25:47

I agree Bill.  There are so many variables from banjo component makeup to humidity to head material that it is definitely not always a quantitative solution to get these things to sound their best.  I just fooled around with my banjo and settled on a head tension that sounded best to me.  Then I took the straight edge to it and it is one nickel under the straight edge next to the bridge.  I do like Smith's straight edge approach, but I think one needs to make notes on where it sounded best and how many coins and which denomination snugged under the straight edge.  Put that note in the case.  Paying attention of course to evenness as you tightent which it sounds like you did.  Mine sounds great.  Then I have another one that needs 2 quarters to sound what I think is best.  But I am also aware that these are my ears, and they are the most important ears - at least right now.  But if we listen to enough audio banjo, we get to understanding what it should sound like.  All in all, the good banjos don't sound terribly different from one another, even as you go from brand to brand.  I think wood differential makes more sound variance than brand differential actually.  One other thing - bridge feet have different sizes of area or sq. cm. I guess it would be.  So the larger the area to spread that string pressure around, the less indentation of the head, so the smaller the space under the straight edge.  I have one of Don New's spillway bridges on one, which has actually 7 little feet in contact with the head.  This logically would affect the head indentation most likely reducing it.  Might as well tout Don's bridge while I'm here.  It's a nice maple with ebony cap.  Only downside is Mike's Mute won't clamp since the small round holes don't fit the clamps.  Dont' know where I ever found it, but years ago I got an ebony mute that is just a block of ebony with the bottom having the slots for strings and a groove running longways to just press onto the cap and stay.  The top is not parallel to the bottom but slanted so the mute is taller at the first string and gets gradually shorter as it goes to the 5th.  Not as much mute power as Mike's but not bad, and good for these different shapes on bridge bases.  Just can't tell you where to see one or get one.  If anyone reads this and knows what it is I would like knowing myself.  Got it about 30 years ago and no brand markings on it anywhere.

Edited by - kmwaters on 02/28/2012 16:32:59

desert rose - Posted - 02/28/2012:  17:16:14

Hi Bill

CONGRATULATIONS, a part of the veil of voodoo has been removed from your banjo experience. I often ruffle feathers ( as you can see) when doing this, but I feel so strongly that the average player is the best person to determine how his banjo sounds best and how to get it there. Breaking it down these kind of things are quite within the ability of any player.

And YES there are no magic silver bullets, just your ears is all thats necessary

Best wishes

Scott

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 02/28/2012:  17:27:23

DeanT I am also a mechanic amongst many other things. I tighten the head much more than that grip on the extension. I use a 1/4 drive stubby ratchet and 2 inch extension. I only use two fingers to tighten and measure the torque with feel. I am sure I get it within a few inch pounds. The head would be too loose on mine if I did what you are doing. But now thinking as I am typing; If I put some lubricant on the threads first, then maybe I could do it that way.

Thanks Scott Everyone should take a whack at this

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 02/28/2012:  17:29:35

This was the best way to gain horse power, without porting, hot cams or using over 106 octane, and I didn't reach high pressures that blew out primers either.
It may blow out my ears though

kmwaters - Posted - 02/28/2012:  17:32:49

Bill - someone recently recommended washers on the tension hooks and I have done it.  I like it.  Seems like the nuts don't grind as they tighten and probably going to save the finish on the flange as well.  #6 washers.

DeanT - Posted - 02/28/2012:  18:15:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by MOUNTAIN GOAT

DeanT I am also a mechanic amongst many other things. I tighten the head much more than that grip on the extension. I use a 1/4 drive stubby ratchet and 2 inch extension. I only use two fingers to tighten and measure the torque with feel. I am sure I get it within a few inch pounds. The head would be too loose on mine if I did what you are doing. But now thinking as I am typing; If I put some lubricant on the threads first, then maybe I could do it that way.



Thanks Scott Everyone should take a whack at this

---

Sorry Bill, I deleted my post after I read it, because I didn't think it was quite on topic. I've always measured torque with feel on non critical items (like banjos). I also have a very strong grip. For the banjo, using a handle on the extension "mutes" the feel of the torque, so I don't like to use it. I've tap-tuned all the way up to A using my method. It sure is heart warming to see people using their ears over gadgets! Ever since I joined the BHO, it's always been all about drum dials and torque wrenches. 

steve davis - Posted - 02/28/2012:  18:36:01

I always intended for the quarter to be a good ballpark tension to either stay at or move slightly tighter or looser depending on taste.
Both my archtop GS and my flathead conversion a very happy right at a quarter.
Personal tone preferences can be quite different between players.

I go for a good tonal balance that fits my way of playing and the quarter feels good in my ear.

wuzapicker - Posted - 02/28/2012:  18:44:57

The day was when the the only method was to adjust head tension until the banjo sounds "right". I'm sure it was the method used by all the first generation pickers, even the big names. It's the method I use and have since 1969 always used. I've never bothered with gauges or rulers, or the question whether the quarter should be a silver Franklin, or a clad Kennedy.

Indeed factors like humidity, temperature and altitude will make variations in a banjo's sound (even with a plastic head). Or at least they change my perception of a banjo's sound. All my banjos wear plastic heads and most of them sound better to me on rainy days.

Vapor - Posted - 02/28/2012:  21:45:48

Scott has been a great resource. Thanks Scott.

steve davis - Posted - 02/29/2012:  04:34:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by wuzapicker

The day was when the the only method was to adjust head tension until the banjo sounds "right". I'm sure it was the method used by all the first generation pickers, even the big names. It's the method I use and have since 1969 always used. I've never bothered with gauges or rulers, or the question whether the quarter should be a silver Franklin, or a clad Kennedy.



Indeed factors like humidity, temperature and altitude will make variations in a banjo's sound (even with a plastic head). Or at least they change my perception of a banjo's sound. All my banjos wear plastic heads and most of them sound better to me on rainy days.









 

---

 It just so happens that a WK head tightened to a quarter under a 10" straightedge is an "A"

 head note,which just happens to perform very well.

So much clearer than saying tighten it til it breaks and back off a half a turn.

desert rose - Posted - 02/29/2012:  06:14:05

Steve, problem is doing it that way is just like picking the 15 degrees and saying its great universally. Good... maybe, it allows NO allowence for the individual points of parts, fit and personal taste, but the way I outlined and have taught for over a decade and a half lets the INDIVIDUAL player EASILY set his banjo how it sounds best to HIM. The knowledge lets him revisit the banjo at will and update the setting and become familiar with the workings that many want to remain voodoo. Rank beginners by countless numbers have had the veil removed from unlocking the simple excercise of adjusting their banjo so they LOVE the sound, WITHOUT ever damaging a thing

By the way

"So much clearer than saying tighten it til it breaks and back off a half a turn." YOU said that nobody else, lets be clear on that

Scott

wuzapicker - Posted - 02/29/2012:  08:39:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

It just so happens that a WK head tightened to a quarter under a 10" straightedge is an "A"

 head note,which just happens to perform very well.

So much clearer than saying tighten it til it breaks and back off a half a turn.

---

Yeah, but is that a Franklin silver or a Kennedy clad quarter?  Wouldn't it work better with a $50 gold Double Eagle? 

Experience disinclines me to swallow one-size-fits-all solutions. Some say I should tighten my banjo head to G, G#, A, A# or even B. One guy I knew advocated baking tone rings in his oven at 400 degrees for three hours to improve a banjo's sound. Kind of like putting a snake's rattle inside a fiddle, it seems a lot of myths are associated with the banjo.

In all honesty, I'll have to try and find out what note the head on my Y2K RB3 is tuned to and see if setting at some arbitrary note really does help.  But these many years I've only ever over tightened one Weather King head until breakage.  (Lesson learned - don't do that!)  When I first put on a new head, I just bring it up to a playable tension and let it set for a few days.  Then over three or four days I raise the tension until the banjo achieves an acceptable sound.  When it gets close, I turn the nuts one flat (1/6th turn) at a time all around until I think its best.  Sometimes I wind up backing it down a flat or two if it my ear tells me to.  But its all based on the banjo's sound, not some arbitrary setting.  

I've learned getting the proper bridge right is also very important.

The Old Timer - Posted - 02/29/2012:  08:53:41

Wuzapicker said:

"Indeed factors like humidity, temperature and altitude will make variations in a banjo's sound (even with a plastic head). Or at least they change my perception of a banjo's sound. All my banjos wear plastic heads and most of them sound better to me on rainy days."

Now THERE is one of the major factors! How our ears/brains sense sound through different quality air! Whether it's the banjo or not, maybe it's our EARS that "hear" differently in different air!

I know I've experienced this with the same banjo at the same bluegrass festival; there will come a time of day or night when a certain banjo will just "hit it" and sound the best it's ever sounded (not only mine, but other's too). That same instrument will sound like a tub of mush when the air quality changes, or maybe off just a bit. I put it down to combinations of temperature, humidity and even barometric pressure.

One problem with bringing science to bear here, is there is no way we can quantify what our ears/brains "hear"!

It's like art, I know when I like it!

steve davis - Posted - 02/29/2012:  10:25:23

I've never said it was right for everybody.Just a great starting point.

It puts anyone very near where they are going with the thing without danger of breaking anything.



When you get to a quarter,either leave it there or hunt around at tighter or looser.

Of course it's not right for everybody's taste,but I have good taste and it's "right on the money" for me.

I also noticed Tony Trischka enjoying an "A" head note.

Pretty good company.

A quarter is perfect for me.

Edited by - steve davis on 02/29/2012 10:25:56

stelling man - Posted - 02/29/2012:  11:21:30

Great post Scott,  I'm glad you are trying to take the voodoo out of head tightening, some people try to make It sound so complicated when It really Is simple. How do they think Earl,JD or Sonny and all the rest of the early pickers tuned their banjo heads?  You have two ears on your head, that's all you need, USE THEM..

STELLING MAN

SReynolds - Posted - 02/29/2012:  12:05:27

I took my B160 head almost to the quarter gap as suggested (after it was set up *twice* by the selling dealer) and it made the head very snappy/ring loud and long. Prior, it was very loose ( I didn't know that) and sounded like the strings were stretched across a cardboard box.

I too believe the .070 gap (quarter)is a safe goal. I never made it quite there, and mine sounds so good, I'm not so sure I'd want to mess with it more. Folks tell me it is way loud.

steve davis - Posted - 02/29/2012:  12:31:23

I used just my ears for over 40 years.

The point of the quarter or other measurements is to help those that aren't sure of what they are hearing and also for a very quick check of where the tension is if they are in a noisy environment and i/or in a big hurry.

There are some very good reasons for a quick and easy way such as a quarter.

It a big help to many people.



We aren't all the same.

It's also a great way to tell somebody with words how tight you have your head.

It's been very difficult to describe that up until I invented the quarter/straightedge solution.

I've received many thank yous from many people concerning this.

You're all very welcome.

I know some more slick tricks,too.

Edited by - steve davis on 02/29/2012 12:34:08