J-Walk - Posted - 02/05/2012:  18:18:02

When you go to a jam nowadays, just about everybody has a clip-on tuner. Most likely, it's a Snark -- a cheap little device that has taken the world by storm.

I'm too new to jamming to remember a time when people didn't use tuners. I've been told that everyone just tuned up to the fiddler. If the fiddler went sharp or flat, everyone adjusted to him/her -- often on the fly, in the middle of tune.

When everyone has a clip-on tuner, everyone can tweak between tunes and everyone is more or less in tune. In theory, anyway.

What are your thoughts about the prevalence of electronic tuners? Personally, I like 'em.

pluckyfingers - Posted - 02/05/2012:  18:38:37

The last festival I jammed at, even the fiddlers had snarks, as well as mandolin, banjo, guitar player, not sure about double bass, but I suspect it had one on it somewhere. Red was the colour. 

elclaudito - Posted - 02/05/2012:  18:39:05

Fer. I used the white intellitouch one for years on my upright and I have found the Snark to be in many ways any improvement. Just don't pocket it and squat next to your banjo case because they aren't durable in that capacity.
I'm in hopes that always playing in tune will help my ears, although I would probably tune less without one in a jam situation. I find that I'm always fine tuning, if you can fine tune a banjo, that is.

Paul R - Posted - 02/05/2012:  18:42:37

I started playing guitar in '65, when the "tuner" was a six-chambered pitch pipe - one for each string. If you didn't have that, you tuned the guitar to itself, or to someone else's guitar, and you hoped it was in concert pitch. Or you tuned to whatever record you were listening to, and hoped it was spinning at the right speed. I later "graduated" to a chromatic pitch pipe, the round ones we were told to get at teacher's college. One thing you got back then was ear training. I think I was pretty good at hearing notes and tuning. Unfortunately, I found out that the round pitch pipe was flat. I eventually got a Seiko, which worked well when nobody else was around, or if your instrument had a pickup, 'cause you could plug it into the instrument. I finally got an Intellitouch, then a blue Snark.

I like electronic tuners. I think you still really need to use your ears, but clip-on tuners give you the advantage of tuning in the midst of all the musical mayhem that's going on around you. You can tweak, not only between tunes, but in the middle of a tune as well. Just keep the ear trained.

I take the tuner off when I'm not using it. It's just me, I guess, but I don't like the look of good instruments with those things sticking out of their pegheads. Same thing with capos.

mishe mokwa - Posted - 02/05/2012:  18:42:57

They are handy. This is so, but really as long as I'm close to tuned I don't really bother. I can't get into being that picky about not making the little green light shine. I also play old, cheap and beat up instruments, actually the nicest banjo I've ever owned was a good time. If the banjo is close to tuned and doesnt clash then close enough.

J-Walk - Posted - 02/05/2012:  18:54:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul R

I take the tuner off when I'm not using it. It's just me, I guess, but I don't like the look of good instruments with those things sticking out of their pegheads.

---

That's a good point. We pay lots of money for a great looking instrument, then stick a completely foreign-looking gadget on the top of it. Maybe Snark will start making more authentic-looking submerged wood tuners.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/05/2012:  19:32:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by J-Walk



What are your thoughts about the prevalence of electronic tuners? Personally, I like 'em.

---

 Being fer or agin electronic tuners is like being fer or agin socket wrenches.

They're both just tools, and so long as they do the job they're designed for there's nothing to get upset about one way or the other.

~Pete

Rick Polston - Posted - 02/05/2012:  19:37:31

I just ran across a tuner I bought I think in the 70's It is a strobe tuner that is basically a box with a flat portion that sticks out and slides under the strings (my description is crude it is actually well made and looks really cool). The flat part has a small strobe bulb that flashes at different rates depending on which note the knob is turned to the knob is on the box part. Anyway you slide the flat part under the strings and position the strobe bulb under the string to be tuned and when the string appears to stop vibrating (it is actually vibrating at the same frequency as the bulb) that string is in tune. It is really accurate and worked great before the clip on type that picks up vibrations from the instrument. Back in the day all the others worked with a built in mic and picked up all kinds of noise from other pickers etc.

Edited by - Rick Polston on 02/05/2012 19:43:34

banjoholic - Posted - 02/05/2012:  19:42:04

fer

RG - Posted - 02/05/2012:  19:44:31

Gets you close but the ear as always best...

Edited by - RG on 02/05/2012 19:45:00

CAPT Steve - Posted - 02/05/2012:  19:54:28

Rick--I have one of those somewhere, too.  Think it was made by Ovation.  Oh yeah, to answer the question, definitely fer 'em!

Edited by - CAPT Steve on 02/05/2012 19:55:37

raybob - Posted - 02/05/2012:  19:57:52

I've been playing since before the tuners (started with guitar in the 60's).  To tune our instruments sometimes we would tune one and people would take their notes from that one instrument (guitar or fiddle).  Folks pretty much had to keep quiet enough so others could hear to get tuned up.

These days with the electronic tuners people tune up while talking or someone else playing nearby, doesn't matter.  For this reason I'm "fer" the tuners.  Still, though, if I'm in a quiet room I can tune better with my ear than I can with a tuner.  But a tuner can get you in the ballpark pretty quick, AND you always have a source for your first note.

Edited by - raybob on 02/05/2012 20:00:35

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 02/05/2012:  20:10:34

I used to be a bit conceited about not needing a tuner.



Once I took up fretless banjo, I started using them a lot more.

I figured that if something was out of tune, I wouldn't have

to figure out if it was me or the banjo. Plus on a fretless, it's important that the notes are always in the same places.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 02/05/2012 20:12:03

Fathand - Posted - 02/05/2012:  20:12:31

Well said, Personally I have 4 electronic tuners of different vintages. I like the Snarks best but I think people should learn how to tune without one as a matter of principle. If there was anything that slowed down my practice it was the 20 minutes or so it used to get me in tune when I was starting.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad

quote:

---

Originally posted by J-Walk



What are your thoughts about the prevalence of electronic tuners? Personally, I like 'em.

---

 Being fer or agin electronic tuners is like being fer or agin socket wrenches.

They're both just tools, and so long as they do the job they're designed for there's nothing to get upset about one way or the other.

~Pete

---

Jim Yates - Posted - 02/05/2012:  20:41:01

I have to agree with Paul about tuners and/or capos on the headstock.  I can recall arriving for a jam or practice and spending up to a half hour tuning.  Sometimes it would take no time, but sometimes I would send everyone off to have a beer while I tuned all of the instruments. I am grateful for my tuner.

I haven't tried the Snark, but have a Solutions ST-23 clip on that I like a lot.  It is brightly lit and shines yellow when the string is flat, red when it's sharp and green when it's right on.  unlike the Intellitouch, it is sensitive enough to read the low E string of a guitar without playing a harmonic.

Rick Polston - Posted - 02/05/2012:  21:11:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by CAPT Steve

Rick--I have one of those somewhere, too.  Think it was made by Ovation.  Oh yeah, to answer the question, definitely fer 'em!

---

I think the one I have actullay says Ovation on it (I borrowed that clip from some old files I had found on the web) I also have another one that has an orange face rather than the silver / gray and it has a different name on it. Now I have to go digging :-/

banjopogo - Posted - 02/05/2012:  22:17:05

Last jam I went to there were about 3 blue Snarks (guitar) and 3 red ones (chromatic) I felt left out with my black Intelli!!!



In one sense I don't like the Snark colors, but I have learned the hard way that a black tuners is almost too invisible-- I'll leave it on a guitar headstock because it doesn't stand out, then go to a jam with just the fiddle, and realize I left the tuner in the guitar case on the headstock.

And the bright colors may keep them from getting broken.



Whatever the model (at least if it's reasonably accurate), I'm in favor of electronic tuners.

In the bad old days in the early 70's, there was always someone who would tire of tuning before they were fully in tune, and we'd have to endure the whole rest of the jam listening to them. Now, nobody really has any excuse for not being in tune... they either have a tuner, or can borrow one. Playing with people who are in tune makes intonating the fiddle properly a LOT easier.

Also, practicing on a fiddle that's really in tune helps you learn better intonation.... if the strings are in tune, the open strings often resonate with the correctly intonated note much more than with an incorrectly fingered one.

Oh yeah... this is the BANJO Hangout.... what with all the tunings, tuners just make it easier. And because tuning is quicker, it encourages you to tune more OFTEN.

Oh yeah.... one key advantage to a tuner... it lets you know quickly and easily which strings are in tune so you DON'T have to touch them!!!  That speeds things up considerably.



Oh... there is ONE drawback....

less time and opportunity for



TUNING JOKES!!!!

(What, you say that's not a drawback????)

Edited by - banjopogo on 02/05/2012 22:20:44

AlpacaLips - Posted - 02/05/2012:  22:32:39

FER the ones that work well (e.g. Snark when the battery ain't dead)

AGIN the ones that don't (e.g. Snark when the battery is dead, which seems to be most of the time)

TX2AK - Posted - 02/05/2012:  22:38:04

Definitely fer - agree with the others who say no good reason to be opposed: they are ugly though :-)

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/05/2012:  23:50:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG



Gets you close but the ear as always best...

---

Not unless you're thinking about the fact that your ears  -in most cases-  don't have batteries that tend to die right when you need them most.   And electronic tuners do.   (Murphy's law.)

But concerning precision, a high-quality strobe tuner will be accurate to plus or minus 1 cent, which is 1% of the difference between half tones; I.E, the pitch difference between C and C# divided by 100.    Now, there are players whose ears are that well trained, but they're rather thin on the ground, and even an inexpensive modern tuner such as a Snark will get you close enough to pitch that very few folks can hear any dissonance.

So a well-trained ear is better from the standpoint of reliability  -unless you carry spare fresh batteries in your case-  but most times a modern electronic tuner can detect differences in pitch better than can the average human ear.

~Pete

banjoak - Posted - 02/06/2012:  00:07:52

I too learned long before the ET days when everybody tuned by ear. Never found it that big of a deal or time consuming. I'm not agin them, however, I have noticed some things since they've been around.

I actually notice more jams (with intermediate players) slightly out of tune than ever. Many can't hear they have become out of tune (or were never there). I also notice more fiddlers and bass players out of tune these days.

The trouble some folks have with dealing with a fixed pitch instrument, that is not A440.

While they should be faster, and make it quick for a banjo player to quickly and easily go from one tuning to another, not be a problem, the reality is not. Further, those that have learned to tune by ear well seem quicker.

I actually liked the process in the old days, where we all tuned to each other; felt it was a preparation for tuning into each other, listening to each other, as a group.

janolov - Posted - 02/06/2012:  01:59:32

From the beginning I were against electronic tuners. I thought we have two ears because we shall use them. However, about three years ago I finally bought one and since then I have used it every day.

banjoy - Posted - 02/06/2012:  03:18:58

I began picking in 1978 before these things were invented. Let me tell you, it's a vast improvement.

Fer. Definitely, fer.

Grum - Posted - 02/06/2012:  03:50:03

Attention: Mike Gregory.

Please insert a picture of a banjo with a fish impaled on the peg head.

South Hills - Posted - 02/06/2012:  03:55:42

Fer.  I love my (red) Snark.

J-Walk - Posted - 02/06/2012:  05:48:26

A way to deal with the dead battery problem: Buy a ton of them:

ebay.com/itm/100-CR2032-CR-203...17wt_1098

I bought 100 for $19, and tossed at least 50 of them out to players at a jam.

Quartermaster James - Posted - 02/06/2012:  06:32:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by J-Walk

A way to deal with the dead battery problem: Buy a ton of them:

---

Ditto.

And, honestly, I probably wouldn't be playing at all without my tuner.

ZEPP - Posted - 02/06/2012:  06:51:59

I used a tuning fork for the first 35 years or so; as I recall, I bought my first electronic tuner in the mid '90s.

Nowadays, I use--and advise the use of--electronic tuners.  Not only can people get instruments tuned to "standard" pitch (when they don't change the reference setting on their tuners from A440--you'd be surprised how many folks have tuners that "just don't work right for this reason), but they are very useful at jams when one hears that something is amiss.  Vibration-sensing tuners allows the quick check of one's instrument and an equally quick assessment that "it's not me, so it's someone else's problem."  I use this technique myself, as I have a tendency to "chase" other instruments that are slightly out of tune, which tends to get mine totally messed up.

On the down side, and as noted, they do not always work and are not always available.  To this end, I advise my students to tune by ear, and then use their tuners to verify.  I really think this helps train the ear.

Disclaimer:  I cannot claim to have "perfect pitch."  I do, however, have that which I describe as "adequate pitch":  I can take all the strings off an instrument, install a new set, and run everything up by ear and consistently be within a quarter tone of standard.  

Cheers,

ZEPP

Bart McNeil - Posted - 02/06/2012:  06:56:51

While I object on principal to an electronic tuner, It is the only way a group can tune together... Some folks just don't have the ear to tune accuratly by sound alone. the tuner allows them to tune by sight. At the same time I find it offensive to have to look at that chunk of plastic hanging on the headstock during a performance. Just as I would find it offensive to see a tuning fork dangeling on a string from the headstock.

richla - Posted - 02/06/2012:  07:53:39

My wife got me one for Christmas, and I love it. It's a red Snark. Great product.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/06/2012:  08:33:10

I am exactly opposite of Zepp.

imo, beginners should always tune electronically and never try to tune by ear. (They also need to stay in the same tuning until ear advancement occurs).

Tune up before every session and forget about it.

At some point in the next few weeks or months, the newbie will _hear_ that the banjo is out of tune.

At this point and _never_ before, the student should try tuning by ear.

IFF (if and only if) you can already tune by ear correctly, then your ear already works.

But if you're like most and your ear isn't that attuned to pitch yet, all you do is practice tuning incorrectly.

Practice makes perfect ONLY if it's perfect practice. (That isn't just my opinion).

paulaschumm - Posted - 02/06/2012:  08:42:14

Fer. I just got a Snark a couple of weeks ago. I've had other electronic tuners and used them for years. I know how to tune by ear, and that is helpful, but I highly recommend the inexpensive electronic tuner to all musicians.

Paula

mworden - Posted - 02/06/2012:  08:46:37

Great idea, J-Walk.  I thought 100 would be overkill but I just bought 10 for four bucks on Amazon with free shipping:

amazon.com/Maxell-CR2032-lithi...000X107GI

Love the red Snark.  By far the best tuner I've tried.  I've got some other clip-ons that work OK but not nearly as well as the Snark.  

I've had a couple of mic only tuners over the years and hated them.  I always went back to tuning my A string (guitar) with a tuning fork, which was quick and accurate, and then tuning the rest of the instrument relative to the A.  

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by J-Walk

A way to deal with the dead battery problem: Buy a ton of them:

ebay.com/itm/100-CR2032-CR-203...17wt_1098

I bought 100 for $19, and tossed at least 50 of them out to players at a jam.

 

---

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/06/2012:  11:39:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy



I began picking in 1978 before these things were invented. Let me tell you, it's a vast improvement.

Fer. Definitely, fer.

---

To tell the truth, I used to chuckle quietly at the folks who used electronic tuners -because I'd never used them on stage and didn't need to.    But then I went down to see John Jorgenson's band play a gig and noted that John  -who is an amazing musician-  was using a clip-on headstock tuner to fine-tune between numbers.

Having played with John in the past, I knew that he didn't need any electronic assistance in tuning -so I asked him between sets why he was using the tuner.

Said he:  "If I know I've slipped a bit out of tune while I'm playing, I can flip it on and be back in tune before the audience even stops applauding.   I wouldn't be able to hear the guitar to get it in tune while the applause was going on, but the tuner allows me to use that time to tune so the flow of the performance remains intact.

I watched him play his second set, and he was doing exactly that.   At which point I decided that I wasn't too old a dog to learn a new  -and useful-  trick.

~Pete

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/06/2012:  11:41:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by J-Walk



A way to deal with the dead battery problem: Buy a ton of them:

ebay.com/itm/100-CR2032-CR-203...17wt_1098

I bought 100 for $19, and tossed at least 50 of them out to players at a jam.

---

 What a good idea!

I'm gonna have to do that!

~Pete

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/06/2012:  11:58:37

And while we're speaking of batteries:  the repairman side of Deaf Lester strongly suggests that you not unwrap those spare batteries until you need to use 'em.

One of my regular customers left a fresh unwrapped 9v. battery loose in his guitar's parts box where it shorted out on a steel capo and the sparks set the guitar case on fire.

~Pete

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/06/2012:  12:07:21

I comer from the days of the tuning fork, a mostly inaudible device in a noisy room, unless you ran it through the PA. Electronic tuners make everything easier. My current state of heavy tinnitus means the tuner does a better job than I do in most situations.

JSCB - Posted - 02/06/2012:  13:33:18

Electronic tuners prevent tuning arguments. I come from the day of pitch pies and tuning forks, so I like the electronic for ease. However, the electronic tuner does nothing to help the ear. I don't know about other people but I note that any instrument can be in tune with the tuner, but the question is ... is the instrument in tune with itself. If the ear isn't listening then that final edge of being in tune can be missing.

Jim Yates - Posted - 02/06/2012:  14:09:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by JSCB

Electronic tuners prevent tuning arguments. I come from the day of pitch pies and tuning forks, so I like the electronic for ease. However, the electronic tuner does nothing to help the ear. I don't know about other people but I note that any instrument can be in tune with the tuner, but the question is ... is the instrument in tune with itself. If the ear isn't listening then that final edge of being in tune can be missing.

---

I agree JSCB. The first time I ever used a tuner was at the Pine Ridge Bluegrass Association jam.  A fellow brought one and we all lined up to use it.  After tuning to the tuner, I started touching up my tuning and was chastised by the owner of the tuner.  "Do you think your ear is more accurate than the tuner?"...  I still find myself correcting the tuner after using it.

JSCB - You said,"I come from the day of pitch pies and tuning forks."  Did you use the tuning fork to eat the pitch pie?

JSCB - Posted - 02/06/2012:  14:14:58

No I just can't spell none to good, but it tasted well.

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 02/06/2012:  14:39:06

They're a useful tool,   The strange thing is that my preference is to tune about 15 cents sharper than the indicated true note.  At this value the notes sound sweeter

rgds

Chris

Dave Douglass - Posted - 02/06/2012:  15:12:49

I'm all for electronic tuners but I just hate the way they look on a peghead..... especially a real fancy inlayed, engraved peghead. Is it that much trouble to take the ugly-ass things off after tuning?

Chip Booth - Posted - 02/06/2012:  15:18:05

What's the downside of being in tune?

dwdeacon - Posted - 02/06/2012:  15:30:35

I didn't get one till a couple years ago, and I still don't always use it. I play tenor banjo at an Irish session and we tune to the concertina. I never leave it on the instrument. On 5 string, I find that i let the instrument go sharp after I've been changing tunings for a while, so it's good to bring it back down to concert once in a while.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 02/06/2012:  18:20:10

There is something to be said for the way tuners keep us reined in to standard pitch.

I remember festivals back in the day where every session was at its own arbitrary pitch, unless someone was playing a harmonica or autoharp. As the night wore on, everything gradually tended to sharpen, and you'd sometimes wind up a fret or more above A440. Strings would start breaking, and if it was hot and humid enough, a guitar bridge might pull loose or a fiddle would disintegrate.

Jim Yates - Posted - 02/06/2012:  21:11:21

dwdeacon - I don't use mine unless I'm playing with others or changing strings and I too find that all of my instruments tend to creep sharp over a few days.  I wonder if it's because I tune to the sharper string, tuning up rather than down.  But even my Autoharps seem to creep sharp.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/06/2012:  22:41:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert



As the night wore on, everything gradually tended to sharpen, and you'd sometimes wind up a fret or more above A440. Strings would start breaking, and if it was hot and humid enough, a guitar bridge might pull loose or a fiddle would disintegrate.

 

---

 It's commonly called a 'tuning circle', and it happens because most people tend to hear just a little bit sharp.  But it also happens more with some instruments than with others, although I have no idea why this should be so.

After a week of fingerpicking practice my Dobro is almost always half-a-fret high to concert pitch, but my banjos and my D-28 never budge.

Quien sabe?

~Pete

banjoak - Posted - 02/07/2012:  01:40:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

There is something to be said for the way tuners keep us reined in to standard pitch.



I remember festivals back in the day where every session was at its own arbitrary pitch, unless someone was playing a harmonica or autoharp. As the night wore on, everything gradually tended to sharpen, and you'd sometimes wind up a fret or more above A440. Strings would start breaking, and if it was hot and humid enough, a guitar bridge might pull loose or a fiddle would disintegrate.

 

---

The other side of keeping reined in to standard pitch. I recall many a session in those days where the pitch was determined by the best overall tonal sound of the instrument in the context of humidity and temperature. String tension feel had a part as well. Usually determined by the fiddler, but sometimes the banjo, sometimes required a negotiation (or argument) between them. They were most often flatter than A440. I find there was and still is something to it regarding the overall quality. Granted these were small jams.

artcarnie - Posted - 02/08/2012:  14:20:46

I might of missed the tread, but when tuning quickly both by ear and electronicly, don't different tunings like c and g require a different approach? For example with the g tuning where the b string has less tension and it a third verses a fourth, fifth or unsion, I do that very last after all the others are in then I check it with the 9th fret on the first string.