jbalch - Posted - 01/17/2012:  19:47:36

I just installed a new Bill Rickard 12" Dobson tone ring on my 1993 Bart Reiter 12" Internal resonator banjo.  The impact is very good!

This banjo is a very rare 12" Internal resonator.  Bart built a small number of these in the early 1990s.  When they were made, I'm sure there were precious few tone ring options available in the 12" rim size.  This banjo had only a simple brass hoop ring on top of the internal resonator rim.  It is a truly great instrument as originally built (used extensively in the recording of my ~HOT~ Biscuit Jam cd  johnbalchmusic.com/hot.html)

But I've never been one to leave well-enough alone.  I wondered what it would sound like if I could add a Rickard Dobson ring on top of the rim.  After all, that would be similar in concept to an original Bacon FF style spun brass ring inside the resonator...but in a 12" size.  No such Bacon FF ring is available in that size ... but the Rickard Dobson is.

It turns out that Bill's 12" Dobson ring is turned to fit a Keller drum shell with an actual outside Diameter of 11 7/8".  Bart must have used such a shell as the outside all of the internal resonator rim, because the ring is a perfect fit. 

The Reiter banjo was originally supplied with a brass hoop tone ring that was 5/16" cross-section and 12" outside diameter (actually 1/8" larger than the wood rim).  This original brass hoop would not fit inside Bill's 11 7/8" Dobson ring.  So I asked Bill to supply a 1/4" brass hoop fitted to the inside of his Dobson.  This type of ring is not normally included..but Bill was able to provide it -no problem.

When I got it all together, the assembly was a perfect fit.  It went on my rim with absolutely no modification of the original banjo.  The same head, tailpiece and bridge work perfectly.  I did not have to change anything about the set-up.

The new tone ring accomplished exactly what I hoped.  This banjo has a VERY big sound. It might be a little louder.  The tone of the banjo did not change (It was already great to begin with). But the Dobson ring adds a subtle, warm sustain to the notes. It really "tickles your belly" now. I am VERY pleased!

Bill and Sean were extremely helpful.  I recommend their products and service!  Thanks guys!

Edited by - jbalch on 01/21/2012 12:01:48

ring installed on Reiter banjo	Rim & tone ring assembly	Rickard Dobson ring with added brass hoop	Rickard 12" Dobson ring
rim with original brass hoop	Rim and original ring	11 7/8" O.D. Internal Resonator rim

pastorharry - Posted - 01/17/2012:  19:56:05

What fun John, I bet that banjo sounds extra good now. This is going to the Bart Reiter banjo group......(Whoops, I see it's already there, shoulda known.

Edited by - pastorharry on 01/17/2012 19:58:14

jbalch - Posted - 01/17/2012:  20:05:29

Thanks Harry.  It was a great banjo to begin with...just a little better now.  I hope you can come give it a try sometime (or maybe I'll bring it to the island...wouldn't that be fun).

JB

banjobart - Posted - 01/17/2012:  20:05:31

That's wild! A+ for creativity and clever problem solving. Banjo engineers the both of you are, kudos.

PS: I got WL scalloped rings in today and your banjo is begun.

Pine Cone - Posted - 01/17/2012:  20:19:27

Very nice!

I have an older Reiter A-scale that I am planning to put an 11" Rickard Dobson ring on later this winter.  It's #335, once owned by Frosty Morn and then Steelhead, both here on the Hangout. 

I have a Rickard Dobson kit that I put together as well as a Rickard Tubaphone, both great banjos.

f#dead - Posted - 01/17/2012:  20:30:32

Would love to hear it John.  Let us know when you post something.  I'm wondering if I could put a Dobson in my Buckeye?

Paul R - Posted - 01/17/2012:  22:19:07

When I saw the title of this thread on the BHO home page, I though it might be you, John. You don't sit still! Congrats on working out a solution to the fit situation, and it's good to see how Bill Rickard keeps coming up with the goods to make it right. I think that Bill is the Mike Holmes of the banjo world.

Banjos and bicycles - they're made for tinkering.

jbalch - Posted - 01/18/2012:  05:44:48

Thanks everyone. This  involved a good bit of luck - honestly. I measured the rim & wrote Bill an e-mail.  I sent him photos of the rim and he responded that it might just work.  Bill is such a great resource, he sent me the Dobson ring and said if it does not fit - send it back.  

I did not figure out the part about the brass hoop until after the Dobson ring arrived.  That is when I discovered that the original brass hoop is oversized and would not fit inside the Dobson.  But without a hoop underneath, the Dobson ring sat too low on the rim.

The cool thing was that Bart's original brass hoop was approx. 5/16" cross section. So a slightly smaller 1/4" brass hoop, sitting underneath the 1/16" thick spun brass Dobson ring, results in a total height that is almost identical to the original.  Bill quickly suppled a brass hoop that fit perfectly inside his Dobson ring. When I got all the parts gathered, the whole thing went on as easy as installing a head.

I have another one of these old 12" IR Reiter banjos (this one a fretless).  Guess I'll have to order another Rickard Dobson ring to add to that one too.

ps: Bart - that is great news about the new banjo! Thanks! 

Shawn Hoover - Posted - 01/18/2012:  06:18:36

Engineering and luck are good buddies. Nice banjo! I'd love to hear it.

jbalch - Posted - 01/18/2012:  06:49:09

"I'd rather be lucky than good"....is't that what they say?

I added a few more photos of the assembled banjo.  The new ring is completely hidden.  The side skirt is short so it is not visible underneath the tension hoop and head. The only evidence of the ring (other than the sound) is the subtle Dobson curve on top of the head.

Final remaining issue: the crown height of this skin head is a bit too tall.  I'll mount a new one when I get time.  But for now this one fits well enough.  The tension is good.  But It is pulled down so far that I don't have room left in the neck-notch fo tighten it much more.

Edited by - jbalch on 01/18/2012 06:55:06

Ho C Ying - Posted - 01/18/2012:  06:52:25

Congratulation, John!

Can't wait to hear the banjo.   

Edited by - Ho C Ying on 01/18/2012 06:52:59

olsneelock - Posted - 01/18/2012:  07:08:21

That's so cool. Seems one could also do this with an 11" Rickard Dobson + 1/4 hoop in a Reiter Standard or Special... No?

jw

jbalch - Posted - 01/18/2012:  07:32:17

The lesson I learned is that you need to check the measurements.  I'm not sure if the 11" Rickard Dobson ring is large enough to slip over a Reiter rim or not.  But it would be interesting to see. Bill could help figure it out. 

The same goes for the 12" Round Peak. 

olsneelock - Posted - 01/18/2012:  08:05:03

Gonna look into it and contact Bill,

Thanks for the post John

Quartermaster James - Posted - 01/18/2012:  09:03:31

Wow! Nice!

jbalch - Posted - 01/18/2012:  18:30:50

Here is a quick sound sample.  I recorded a little original tune that I've used in the past to demo other banjos including several with Dobson tone rings. All the various samples are on my music page. I can hear the impact of the Dobson ring in the recording.  But it is really evident in person.

This was recorded in Audacity with a USB Mic (not my normal studio set-up).  So the quality is not as good as some samples. There is no EQ or added  reverb.

Edited by - jbalch on 01/18/2012 18:33:43

UnNamed tune on 12" Reiter IR with Rickard/Dobson tone ring added

DEmery - Posted - 01/18/2012:  18:44:38

John she sounds good. I look forward to hearing it in person. David E.

f#dead - Posted - 01/18/2012:  18:45:53

thnx John, that sounds great.  I have been interested in the Rickard Dobson, so maybe I will try installing one on my Buckeye.  I'll check w/ Greg and Bill first.  thnx again for the post.

altacke - Posted - 01/18/2012:  20:52:18

looks pretty good!
side question... why is the rim made to be 11 and 7/8? do you want the flesh hoop on the head to be 16th of an inch off the rim? on the banjo uke i'm making i accidentally cut the rim down an 1/8th of an inch too short and the space didn't look right to me. the explanation is probably obvious but i cant make the concept work in my head.

Ho C Ying - Posted - 01/18/2012:  22:24:03

Love the sound! Very warm tone!

jbalch - Posted - 01/19/2012:  04:39:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by altacke

looks pretty good!

side question... why is the rim made to be 11 and 7/8? do you want the flesh hoop on the head to be 16th of an inch off the rim? on the banjo uke i'm making i accidentally cut the rim down an 1/8th of an inch too short and the space didn't look right to me. the explanation is probably obvious but i cant make the concept work in my head.

---

 I'm not sure I understand your question.  But I'll respond that the flesh hoop should be the same diameter as the tension hoop.  Both the tension hoop and fleshhoop should be sufficiently larger than the rim as to allow for easy mounting of the head.  1/16" sounds tight to me.  I like a little larger gap between the rim (or tone ring at the top) and the hoops ... especially when mounting a skin head. 

Some builders (like Johannes Bonefaas) deliberately leave larger gaps between the hoops and rim/tone ring to provide for mounting thick hide heads. 

Does that help?

carlb - Posted - 01/19/2012:  06:36:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

Final remaining issue: the crown height of this skin head is a bit too tall.  I'll mount a new one when I get time.  But for now this one fits well enough.  The tension is good.  But It is pulled down so far that I don't have room left in the neck-notch fo tighten it much more.

---

 I had this issue happen to me about 30 years ago or so. What I did was to go to the knitting and sewing store and bought an aluminum hoop, the same diameter as the banjo. Filed the joint area of the hoop so it was smooth, removed the tension ring and slid on the aluminum hoop and then put the tension ring back on and tightened the head. The result was that the tension ring was now at the right height. Only had to do this the one time, because I had cut the extra skin away after mounting the head and hadn't wait for it to dry and see if the tension was about right. I've never had to do this again, so far. Experience helps (see Hide Group comment from today).

altacke - Posted - 01/19/2012:  10:00:01

so the inside diameter on the tension hoop and flesh hoop are the only parts that measure 12. and you want room so the rim is cut 1/8 inch smaller to get a 1/16 inch gap around the entire rim. i get it now. thanks

jbalch - Posted - 01/19/2012:  19:17:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by altacke

so the inside diameter on the tension hoop and flesh hoop are the only parts that measure 12. and you want room so the rim is cut 1/8 inch smaller to get a 1/16 inch gap around the entire rim. i get it now. thanks

---

I'm not sure of the exact measurements.  But you are right that the inside diameter of both the tension hoop and flesh hoop should be the same. If the flesh hoop is much smaller than the tension hoop ... it will slip under and not be held securely in place when tightened. If the flesh hoop is larger than the tension hoop ...if might interfere with the hooks.  If the are the same size ...it makes for a secure mounting of the head.

Also,  both the tension and flesh hoops should be sufficiently larger than the outside diameter of the rim to provide space between the hoop(s) and the rim for mounting a medium-thick skin head. The only time I've ever had trouble mounting a head is when the hoop(s) are too tight to the rim.

jbalch - Posted - 01/21/2012:  12:04:04

Here are some more sound samples.  I like the effect of this ring inside the Internal Resonator banjo a lot:

Again - recorded in Audacity with USB mic.  No EQ or Reverb added.  Not studio quality...just "down and dirty."

Edited by - jbalch on 01/21/2012 12:08:26

~HOT~ BISCUIT JAM on Reiter IR with Rickard Dobson ring

LOST CHEROKEE on Reiter IR with Rickard Dobson ring

ANGELINE THE BAKER on Reiter IR with Rickard Dobson ring

jbalch - Posted - 02/04/2012:  17:32:13

Today I mounted a new goatskin head on this banjo.  The head that was on it had a crown that was just a bit too tall.  It bottomed out in the neck notch and I could not tighten it sufficiently. 

I think the new head will sound and look great.

natural goat skin from Jeff Menzies

banjobart - Posted - 02/04/2012:  18:24:34

One can deepen the neck notch 1/16" with a knife and chisel and not hurt anything.

DanKnowles - Posted - 02/04/2012:  19:02:43

Great sounding recordings of a great sounding banjo. That banjo has always been one of my favorite ones of yours. BTW That intonation on the fretless ain't bad either...

jbalch - Posted - 03/14/2012:  05:36:36

UPDATE -  I've installed three (3) of these now.  I LOVE what they do for my banjos. 

blockader - Posted - 03/22/2012:  09:49:25

i want to try this with my Ome woody. haven't heard back from Mr. Rickard yet on his thoughts. the Ome rim is 11 7/8 so the Ring would theoretically slip over it right? i take your account to say that the ring has an inner diameter of 11 7/8. did the extra thickness of the ring metal (1/16" ?) not fill up the gap between your rim and your hoop too much? mine seems to be a fairly close tolerance though the tension hoop looks to be the same as yours. i'm using Ren head so i don't need as much space as you.

-justin

jbalch - Posted - 03/22/2012:  14:44:13

Justin:  The extra inner ring is not normally used with the Rickard / Dobson.  I added it to take the place of the original hoop.  Without it, the Dobson would sit too low (on my banjos).

Bill told me these are machined to fit on a Keller drum shell with a OD of 11 1/8"  They are a lice slip-fit on my old Reiter rims.

To reach Bill - I have two different e-mails.  Try: rickardbanjos@gccl.com and shopfloor@billrickard.com I don't know which is best.   and

mike hansen - Posted - 05/05/2012:  20:27:14

have you tried putting a dobson over an electric tone ring (like the bacon/electric combo)???

I asked Bill about this combo years ago and I believe he made a prototype, but i never got to try it out.

BanjoBach - Posted - 05/06/2012:  03:28:27

John, Thanks for the great recordings, which I've listened to and have to admit you have made a great banjo even better. I'm hearing a fuller sound, a sound which has matures, like a good wine that has become a fine wine. I think I will try something similar with the 11 inch version I bought from Bill a few months back. I'll tinker till I die.

jbalch - Posted - 05/06/2012:  04:24:17

Mike:  You may be aware for other posts, my every-day banjos are a pair of Bart Reiter Bacophone-plus instruments.  "Plus" means are set up with a Bacon donut ring on top of a Whyte Laydie ring. That combinateion is something Bart has done off-and-on for several years.  My 1994 Gerand concert is set up that way too. The Bacon ring adds a bit of sustain for the WL. The combination has a unique sound that I really like.   I think a Dobson ring over a WL ring would be similar.

Charles: Thanks!  I agree that the Dobson rings made these banjos even better.  This ring seems to complete an otherwise already very cool banjo. The set-up now includes a new goat hide head.  It is a sturdy hide and very taught.  Sounds really good (IMHO) ... Looks great too.

Edited by - jbalch on 05/06/2012 04:26:54

	#909 internal resonator rim	unbleached goat hide (Menzies) on #909	Sosebee Bridge & Prucha Presto on #909
2003 Custom Grand Concert - Natural Goat hide head	#909 new head

Jonnycake White - Posted - 05/07/2012:  10:01:04

I couldn't tell from the pictures - are those nylon or steel strings?  I really like the sound of this banjo and I'm starting to design in my head my next "serious" banjo and this time I really want to go for a "certain" sound - though I haven't decided what that sound is yet.