DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 12/23/2011:  14:15:13

I am building up coats of finish (using Tru Oil) on a banjo neck, and instead of following my usual routine I wonder if anybody out there has a set schedule that works for them.  The neck is maple, walnut stripe, rosewood overlay/heel cap.  

Also, how long do you usually wait after the final coat before buffing it out?

Thanks in advance for your help....

Dan

lightgauge - Posted - 12/23/2011:  14:43:14

Dan,

I just finished one and I did a light 0000 steel wool after about three coats and then after each coat, waiting at least two hours between coats. I sprayed the peghead with lacquer for a more glossy look and have waited two weeks for all to cure on this one. Tomorrow is two weeks and will be the day for polishing out and hopefully remounting.

I have put them on and used them the next day with no problems when using all tru oil. Tru oil seems to have a very slight smell  for months, so waiting on that to leave would be impractical. 

Good luck!

Bobby

Patrick Hanna - Posted - 12/23/2011:  15:55:35

Hi, Dan,

TruOil is so versatile, you can do just about anything with it that you could do with any other varnish finish of your choice. Maybe more. You've asked for our individual responses, so what follows is ONLY my individual preference. You already understand that what works for me might (or might not) work for you. Personally, I prefer a built-up finish with a glossy look and feel. That having been said, here's what I have done:



I would first fill the pores of that heel cap with an oil-based pore filler (many others would prefer to use an epoxy pore filling solution). I would let that dry several days and sand smooth to a fine grit. Then I would shoot a couple of sealer coats of thin dewaxed shellac--about a 1-pound cut (fairly watery in consistency). A day or two later, I would sand that sealer coat with some fine sandpaper--maybe 320 grit. My aim would not be to sand it all of, but to smooth it out and get it real thin. Then I would begin a time-consuming process of building up lots and LOTS of thin coats of TruOil. I don't rush this. I wipe on a coat, wipe off the excess, and hang it up to dry for at least a day. Sometimes two days. Then another coat, another hanging period. Every two coats or so, a VERY gentle buff with 0000 steel wool. (At this point, let me acknowledge that many people hate steel wool, but there is nothing wrong with the material if you are meticulous about sweeping, blowing, wiping with a tack cloth, and otherwise getting it cleaned up. I've heard from one guy who puts a magnet in a sock to suck up the final few particles). I continue this process for many coats. I don't know how to tell you what "many" is. I'd say at least ten or twelve coats. Sometimes more. I always do the buff every few coats. This cuts back the build-up considerably, and that's why I need many, many coats. When I am finally satisfied, I hang the piece up for a month. Then if I'm feeling lucky, I might wet sand with 400 wet or dry, lubricated with mineral spirits. If I do that, a few more days of hanging because the TruOil has probably been softened. Eventually, I begin dry polishing the finish with Micro mesh pads, and I don't skip any grits. When I've finished with the final grit, I go to the auto parts store and buy a fresh bottle of Meguire's swirl remover. This I use on a soft cloth (like a scrap of t-shirt) and I hand rub all over the instrument in multiple passes. The end result is extremely glossy but not like the factory, water-clear "plastic" looking finishes we so often see. My method yields a totally hand-crafted appearance that I like. Feels good to me, too. Best of all, it's almost infinitely repairable.  Just a light cleaning and buff once a year or so, and then another light wipe of Tru Oil and a few days of drying.  Then a vigorous rub with a flannel cloth and you are back in business!  

But remember, others might hate my results. The only thing that matters is what works for YOU.

That's why all the responses you'll receive are so valuable to you and me and all the readers of the forum, and it's also why we all need to continually experiment to find our own unique solutions.



My best wishes for good luck!



Patrick

Edited by - Patrick Hanna on 12/23/2011 15:58:41

sunburst - Posted - 12/23/2011:  18:28:37

I usually use TruOil over an oil varnish, so everything is already filled and level by the time I start this procedure, but any method of filling and leveling can precede this procedure:
I rub on the TO with my fingers and rub it all back off with a piece of old T-shirt. If you try to rub it all off, you can't, so a very thin coat remains. I can do that twice a day, and after several days of that, a gloss will start to form. If all has gone well and no major dirty areas or whatever have happened, it can be rubbed to a gloss somewhere between semigloss and full gloss. If I want a full gloss I can wait a day and rub with MaGuiar's #7, and I can get a read-the-wattage-of-a-lightbulb-in-the-reflection gloss. It is a fine looking finish, when handled properly (many ways can be considered "properly"), and it makes a great feeling neck.

nmcguff - Posted - 12/24/2011:  08:18:38

I used Tru-Oil to finish my banjo. I applied one coat, waited 1 hour, applied 2nd coat, waited 1 hour and then a 3rd coat. I let this sit for 24 hours and rubbed down with 0000 steel wool. Repeated until I got 12 coats on the neck. I applied 15 coats to the resonator. After the last coat I let it cure for 3 days and buffed with a soft cotton cloth. You can see photos of the banjo on my homepage.

mike gregory - Posted - 12/24/2011:  11:29:12

By the way: Is tru oil "food safe", for use on bowls and wooden spoons?

Edited by - mike gregory on 12/24/2011 11:29:31

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 12/24/2011:  13:12:25

Mike, I would expect not, as it is essentially a boiled linseed oil with driers added (Unless things have changed greatly since I was customizing rifles in the late '70s, early '80s).

 I wouldn't want to use either on anything food-grade.\

I found this on Mandolin Cafe, via google:

Here's the WHMIS sheet on Tru - Oil (as far as composition goes...):



3. COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS



Description CAS # Weight % 

Mineral Spirits 8052-41-3 > 56

Modified Oil Proprietary < 33

Linseed Oil Proprietary < 11



This is straight from Birchwood-Casey's site. http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/.../23035-TO8.pdf



In the mad rush to extol the virtues of Tru-Oil as an instrument finish, let's not forget the fact that more than 56% of what you're putting on to the instrument is solvent, in the form of mineral spirits...



"...i doubt if much soaks in..." Really??? It's made to soak in! That's why there's so much solvent in it! It's made to soak into much harder wood and closed-pored wood than spruce or mahogany. Most gunstocks are made of walnut, and that's what this product was developed for! You bet your boots it soaks in!



Oil finishes, by their very nature, are much easier to apply than lacquers or varnishes. This puts them well within the reach of the average joe who wants to try his hand at wood finishing, but that doesn't make them automatically the best finish for the job. Slopping all that solvent onto the soundboard of my instrumet is NOT something I want to do! I wouldn't go near the stuff as an instrument finish, except maybe for a neck...

Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 12/24/2011 13:14:59

mike gregory - Posted - 12/24/2011:  13:23:20

Yeah, thanks, K. Waldo.

Made a little beverage muddler.

Since that's what I've GOT, and I wanted to hand over the gift tomorrow, I was hoping.

I'll hand it over unfinished, and Miss Alice, who has the stuff I used on her giant rolling pin, wil offer to take it home, treat it, and bring it back next time she's in town.

And now, for your enjoyment, a shot of Miss Alice and the rolling pin I made last year. She was QUITE happy that all her cookies came out uniformly thin THIS year.

Big rolling pin 1

sunburst - Posted - 12/24/2011:  14:05:41

K Waldo, we don't have to "slop" it on and we can seal the wood first. There are those among us who actually do know something about instrument finishes who use Tru Oil sometimes. BTW, have you checked to see how much solvent is in lacquer? The amount of solvent does not necessarily indicate how much a finish soaks in to the wood, especially with no information on how it is applied.

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 12/24/2011:  17:19:04

Thanks for all of the advice.   It sounds like most of you are doing pretty much what I've done (or variations thereof).  I've already done three coats.  This time I rubbed it on with my fingers (covered by a latex glove) instead of a rag and I think I put it on a little thicker because it's taking longer to dry, so from this point on I'll apply it with my usual cloth.  Also, I normally put on a coat or two of shellac, but I skipped that, and that as probably a bad move.  Just wanted to experiment...

Why do I think I'm going to end up sanding it all off and starting over.

Thanks again, guys.

Corwyn - Posted - 12/24/2011:  17:42:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike gregory

By the way: Is tru oil "food safe", for use on bowls and wooden spoons?

---

I recommend exclusively walnut oil for food contact finish.  It is edible, dries (polymerizes) a bit, and doesn't go rancid.

That said, most finishes are 'approved' for food items.

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 12/24/2011:  20:06:15

Third coat finally dried, rubbed it smooth, everything seems okay...

I'm going to leave it for a while.

pick it - Posted - 12/25/2011:  11:26:41

I never would want to put anything on an insturment that keeps soaking into the wood like tru oil,I believe the vibration will suffer .I don't think Gibson,martin,stelling,etc used such things,that should say something about finishing one.

rudy - Posted - 12/25/2011:  11:58:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by pick it



I never would want to put anything on an insturment that keeps soaking into the wood like tru oil,I believe the vibration will suffer .I don't think Gibson,martin,stelling,etc used such things,that should say something about finishing one.

---

 The first coat (or two) of Tru-oil soaks in and seals the wood, just like 99% of the other finishes involving solids and a carrier that is designed with volatiles that evaporate into the air during the drying phase.  After the initial coat or two Tru-oil does not sink in, it builds up on the surface, albeit very slowly.  Each coat is agonizingly thin, so it takes a lot of coats if you're expecting anything resembling a thick "plastic-looking" factory applied spray finish.  THAT will kill the tone of your instrument far worse than any hand applied surface finish.

Although large manufacturing companies such as Martin use other products that are more suitable to a large scale production operation with spray application equipment, that does not mean hand applied finishes are inferior in any way.  They are just more suited to small scale shop situations.

Ever see a Chuck Lee banjo?

sunburst - Posted - 12/25/2011:  19:00:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by pick it

I never would want to put anything on an insturment that keeps soaking into the wood like tru oil,I believe the vibration will suffer .I don't think Gibson,martin,stelling,etc used such things,that should say something about finishing one.

---

Well, I did all the finish application for one of those companies for 6 years, and I think Tru Oil can make a fine instrument finish, but it's like all other finishes, it must be done right.

GSCarson - Posted - 12/25/2011:  20:34:38

"I never would want to put anything on an insturment that keeps soaking into the wood like tru oil,I believe the vibration will suffer ."  

I don't agree, but then this same statement has come up just about every other time someone asks about using this finish.   TruOil can make an absolutely fine instrument finish, but as sunburst says, it needs to be done right.  I've used it on several hundred gunstocks (when I was doing that full time in the mid 70's, and on well over 80 banjos since about the same time.  It has held up very well, is very friendly to small shop non spray finishing, and can be applied in thin coats that do not impede the sound, just don't over do it, just like you shouldn't with lacquer.  I have two fiddles that were finished with thin coats of TruOil carefully over sizing, (don't do this unless you really check out oil finishes for this purpose).  They are both absolute cannons, no one would ever guess that is what is on them.  I have never had one complaint about any banjos I've used it on either, in fact just the opposite.   It provides the option for satin or gloss and is great for a home builder.  No, its not the be all end all finish, but then neither is lacquer, french polish, and other finish options.  I don't use it for everything, but I like it a lot.  You can use fillers or seal coats prior to applying TruOil on porous woods like mahogany and walnut.

Believe it or not, there are a few banjo life forms other than pre war Gibson.....  I also like Paramounts, Vegas, Fairbanks, Weymanns, Yoscos, Bacons, Orpheums, Lee's, Fieldings, OME's, Enochs and lots of others. 

By the way, try using worn 600 grit lightly between thin coats instead of steel wool as it will eliminate scratches, and allow it to harden up as long as you can stand it before rubbing out the final coat.  For satin finishes I sand it with worn 1500 or 2000 grit or so and then rub it out with oil and a mix of rottenstone with a little pumice mixed in.  It will provide a very nice warm satin finish and the rubbing out can help to harden the surface.  Good luck!  Glenn C.

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 12/26/2011:  05:24:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by sunburst

K Waldo, we don't have to "slop" it on and we can seal the wood first. There are those among us who actually do know something about instrument finishes who use Tru Oil sometimes. BTW, have you checked to see how much solvent is in lacquer? The amount of solvent does not necessarily indicate how much a finish soaks in to the wood, especially with no information on how it is applied.

---

There are those among us who actually read a post completely before posting snarky comments...

....sorry if it wasn't clear, but my post above was a quote from a post on the mandolin cafe, and includes text from the Birchwood Casey site.  I've finished several rifle and shotgun stocks with Tru-Oil in my day, but would hesitate to use it on anything which would be used to hold food, which was basically what Mike was asking.  The person who didn't "Actually know something about instrument finishes" was the poster on Mando Cafe and/or Birchwood Casey.

Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 12/26/2011 05:35:39

Patrick Hanna - Posted - 12/26/2011:  16:02:40

After going through the thread again, I am very interested in Glenn Carson's method of using worn 600 grit wet or dry instead of my method of 0000 steel wool. Glenn, thanks for posting that note. I'm going to try it, and I am pretty sure it'll give me the same results with much less clean up. If I don't have your results, I'll let you know and maybe you can coach me. But, in the meantime, I think you've shown me a better method. Thanks!
Patrick

pick it - Posted - 12/27/2011:  14:59:34

Glen I was not talking about pre-war banjos or I would not have mentioned Stelling although they finish them the same way as pre-wars.what they finish with  is the best and I won't settle for anything less on my banjos. I use tru oil on gunstocks,I know what it it . one gentleman said he was puting 12 coats on his banjo,and you don't think that will dampen the vibration?how many will?

Edited by - pick it on 12/27/2011 15:07:55

Chuck Lee - Posted - 12/27/2011:  16:01:08

I generally use six or so sprayed coats of Tru-Oil mixed 50/50 with Naphtha.  I learned this method from the Musical Instrument Makers Forum so I can't take credit for the method but it works.  I spoke at length with the tech staff at Birchwood-Casey about it.  They responded "cool, we didn't know you would do that", this was about nine years ago.  It dries to the touch in about 4 hours.  The sprayed coats are equal to about 12-15 hand applied coats of Tru-Oil.  A hand applied coat is very,very thin.  If properly applied, a Tru-Oil finish will be thinner and in my experience/opinion better than lacquer.  It does penetrate some on the first coat or two.  The only place this would make a difference would be on a guitar top.  After that first coat or two dries Tru-Oil doesn't penetrate any longer.  There are many guitar builders using Tru-Oil for the neck, back and sides, then French Polishing the top.  Tru-Oil is not subject to crazing with sudden temperature changes like lacquer is.  I have sanded back both Tru-Oil and lacquer to bare wood so I have had experience on the penetration in to woods.

This is of course just my experience and opinion.  Others opinions may vary.

Chuck Lee

GSCarson - Posted - 12/27/2011:  16:58:25

pick it,  I suppose some of my response to your statement was also in regard to one or two previous threads about TruOil where you posted a response that inferred that it is an inferior finish, not what you would use and not what Gibson used and therefore not worthy of consideration I suppose.  That's all fine and I can respect it as your opinion, but I happen to think it is worthy of consideration, and also that banjos finished with it are Not inferior, unless poorly done, which I've seen on a whole lot of lacquer instruments as well.  After those previous threads, I had decided not to bother getting into one of these types of discussions again about this finish as the last one made me a little nuts since I was simply trying to post a finishing method that had worked very, very well for me and others.   As you can see, I was unsuccessful from commenting this time. 

As Chuck Lee so accurately states, it can make a fine finish for banjos, in particular for open back banjos in my opinion and many others.  I hate to see folks on this forum discouraged to investigate its use when it is such a friendly finish to use and works so well.  As Chuck says, and this mirrors my experience, it doesn't soak in or restrict sound any more than any other finish if used correctly.  I think his approach is particularly clever, and I've have played and examined enough of his banjos including another one recently to know that they have a terrific tone and high quality finish.  I am also very happy with the tone I have gotten with it on every banjo I have used it on (and yes, I have constructed enough openback, tenor and five string resonator lacquer finished banjos to understand the two finishes very well.  I have nothing against lacquer, and like it.   My reply is strictly based on my personal experience as both a full time gunstocker for a period when I was building classic oil finished custom stocks and using four types of oil finishes including this one.  Also as banjo builder for 36 years.   I recently saw two banjos I made, a lacquer finished tenor built in 1981 and a TruOil finished tenor built in 1982 (both resonator flathead banjos).  I was personally just as happy with the TruOil finished banjo as with the lacquer banjo.   I understand your interest in having what you consider the best finish, and I can assure you that my interest when constructing something with my name on it is in doing only the absolute best work I can do, I have no interest in doing anything shoddy or less than that.   I typically spend 6 to 36 months on each of my banjos and the last thing I want to do is mess it up with an inferior finish, especially something that will impact the tone in a negative way.  My only intent with my response was to let people know that it is an viable option, especially for openbacks in my opinion.   Now, I promise, I'm done talking about this subject.  Folks, please search back if interested, there are many previous threads on this finish if you are interested.  Glenn C.

Thurber Mingus - Posted - 12/29/2011:  07:33:43

Just to show you what CAN be done with this finish, if you prefer a high-gloss:

173.192.67.83/board/showthread...?t=711780

Wow!!

Shawn Hoover - Posted - 01/01/2012:  10:12:48

Thanks for the link, Thurber. Every photo in that thread is stunning. The discussion about why one would bother with Tru-Oil for a high gloss finish is interesting, and, relevant to the OP here, there are several schedules detailed.

Edited by - Shawn Hoover on 01/01/2012 10:17:14