kmwaters - Posted - 12/03/2011:  08:22:41

In my continuing quest for clean picking, I still wonder about the importance of the arching of the right hand over the strings, and avoiding "splaying" of the anchor finger(s).  When I study the styles of the great pickers, they seem to be varied in how they hold their right hand and their anchors.  Bela Fleck, for example, doesn't really appear to arch his hand much at all, and the anchors (I think he uses 2) appear to be somewhat splayed, which is considered by many instructors to be a violation of the textbook method.  The "whatever feels good" and "whatever sounds good" are sensible philosophies, but surely there are so-called "textbook" methods and styles that most teachers and experts would recommend to those who are still in the formative stages of developing what would be considered the optimum approach for clean and clear picking.  Any advice from you advanced players and teachers is appreciated.  I am not entrenched in my mechanics yet, so I would like to develop the habits that will be most helpful long term.  I guess the third issue would be the angle, though Wernick's ideas in his legendary Bluegrass Banjo book seems to be followed by most, which is an angle of about 60 degrees coming up from the line formed by the strings.  Still quite open minded on all of this.

Thanks much.

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/03/2011:  08:33:31

Anatomies differ.  Anchor two fingers, one finger, or no fingers--it all works.  

However, you are looking at the problem the wrong way.  First, you have to mature your attack & release.  Once that is settled, then your arm, hand, and fingers will conform to that particular approach.  Check out this video: youtube.com/user/dress821#p/u/...G4zZJ-SQw.  There is a discussion of attack & release.

Flying Eagle - Posted - 12/03/2011:  09:22:20

This is an interesting topic, and it does have a bearing on a lot of things - tone, accuracy, endurance.  I plant two fingers when picking.  Most experienced players do.  That horse has been beaten to death on here a thousand times, and I'm NOT saying that you must plant two fingers to play well.  The case against that has been proven.  However, it's still true that MOST seasoned players feel that they get a better, more stable picking platform by planting both the pinky and the ring.

My issue with that is that my pinky is pretty short.  The length difference between my right hand ring and pinky fingers greatly impacts the position in which I can comfortably place my right hand to pick.  For many years I was very dissatisfied with my tone because the length differential between those two fingers caused my middle finger to strike the strings MUCH closer to the bridge than my thumb - making my tone uneven.  I've been addressing this in recent years, forcing myself to rotate my wrist in order to bring the middle finger away from the bridge.  I'm getting more accustomed to this new right hand placement everyday, and my tone has GREATLY improved.  And yes, I've tried only planting one finger.  In my case, the ring finger.  It solves the comfort and alignment issue,  but it costs me in terms of dynamics, drive and accuracy.  I need to plant two fingers to pick my best.

One idea I had to address this problem was to invent some kind of pinky extension - something that would attach comfortably to my pinky without slipping and allow me to touch the head with both fingers and achieve a "straight across" pick alignment without rotating my wrist.  So far that idea hasn't gotten off the drawing board.  If I ever find something to do that for me, I'd love to try it.  I'm sure I'm not the only banjo picker in the world with this problem.

JW

archtop717 - Posted - 12/03/2011:  09:27:48

I respect Richard a lot and he is a great teacher and player, but I do not agree with the "no finger anchored thing".  If you want to play Bluegrass, you must anchor at least one finger.  Clawhammer banjo is a whole different thing.  I have noticed that pickers that really like to attack the strings ( me included), tend to arch the right hand more ( not written in stone).  But then again, when I play slow tunes or soft backup, my right is more relaxed.  I guess it can be considered a "feel" that determines which way its done.  My 2 cents....

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/03/2011:  10:02:58

Arch, I must edit that video to get rid of that confusion.  I rarely lift my fingers off the head when playing, but I do practice a lot of light and floating touches.  Some people do play floating, so you can't say it is out of bounds.  Most of us don't play that way.  Floating is one end of the spectrum and the death grip (or claw) is the other end.  A good picker should be able to work the entire spectrum as needed for the venue.

But the important thing is to get away from the whole idea of 'anchoring'--that is a unproductive way to think about it. because the idea of 'anchoring' tends to make pickers squash their arm and hands down onto the banjo.  The better approach is to interact with the instrument, rather than bond with it.  This is achieved through practicing float/light touch.

The first generation of pickers was forced by circumstance into playing with a heavy touch and aggressive claw.  The sound setup of that era required it.  (Even more so when there was no sound system).  Nowadays, we have cool electronics that allow us to get away from that kind of unnecessary violence.  A light touch with a good attack and release can almost approach the volume you get with the claw, and it avoids the disadvantages that often come with the aggressive attack and release.

Edited by - Richard Dress on 12/03/2011 10:05:57

kmwaters - Posted - 12/03/2011:  10:25:42

Jim and Richard - thanks. I know this topic is somewhat threadbare (pun intended), but the subject is one which will always have relevance and capable of new input all the time. I glean a new thought every time I see it discussed. Like Jim's recognition of tonal issues when one finger is striking much closer to the bridge than the others. The hand arch seems to be another one of those "do what works" things, but there is no question in my mind that SOME arch element must be there. I do find it interesting though how Kristin Scott-Benson seems to be quite arched and also quite 90 degree-ish in terms of angle of attack, while others are much less than 90 and still generate the good sound. I see that the emphasis here has to be on making sure the finger pick doesn't start making contact on the edges of the picks or the sound really suffers.

Richard, your treatment of the topic of attack and release is really good. Anyone who has not read it needs to. Thanks again guys.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/03/2011:  10:39:44

My hand has a similar anatomy to Jim's which is why I can only plant the pinky (no pinky extension yet) but I know this thread is not just about that. I also know that saying "just do what feels right" doesn't offer much guidence. It IS an individual thing, but doing what initially feels right may not be the right thing down the road. Experiment. Let your ears be your guide.Make sure your RH feels comfortable, not awkward. But don't hold your hand a certain way because some famous player out there is doing it that way.

JDsbanjo - Posted - 12/03/2011:  11:04:58

I only plant my pinky. Works for me.

Flying Eagle - Posted - 12/03/2011:  11:08:54

You're right Laurence, this thread isn't specifically about that, but the length of those two fingers does impact how your hand positions on the head, regardless of how many fingers you plant.  To respond specifically to the question about wrist arch, I would simply say yes - some arch is necessary for keeping your fingers positioned directly over the strings.  This impacts accuracy and picking power.  If you remove all arch, and your hand is basically flat over the strings, I don't really see how you can play with any power or accuracy.  Again, the size of your hand and the length of your fingers are determining factors to the degree of arch and how your hand positions over the strings.

Two basic things are always true:

1. You don't want your right hand moving a lot vertically (up and down); you want it to stay directly over the strings.  A solid plant, whether it's one finger or two,  has the most to do with that.  You MUST plant at least one if you're going to play bluegrass banjo.  I'd never listen to advice about bluegrass banjo playing from ANYONE who said otherwise.

2. Tone is affected by the places that your fingers hit the strings.  The more of a straight line you have (fingers and thumb hitting strings the same distance from the bridge), the more even your tone will be.  This is important, and I've never heard it discussed very much on the BHO.

JW

Rich Weill - Posted - 12/03/2011:  23:22:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flying Eagle

Tone is affected by the places that your fingers hit the strings.  The more of a straight line you have (fingers and thumb hitting strings the same distance from the bridge), the more even your tone will be.  This is important, and I've never heard it discussed very much on the BHO.

---

Very interesting.  I always had heard that the optimal right-hand position is with your right index and middle fingers perpendicular to the strings.  However, in that position, the right thumb and fingers each must strike the strings a different distance from the bridge.  Because of the length of my arms, my natural, relaxed right-hand position is with my fingers diagonal to the strings.  But, ironically, because of this, my right thumb and fingers do strike the strings pretty much in a straight vertical line and, thus, the same distance from the bridge.

overhere - Posted - 12/04/2011:  03:32:05

I think as you progress you automaticly start making crisper sounds. Your hand and fingers will adjust until you do. forcing something to me is unnatural and could hinder or slow down learning.

My pinky is my anchor. If I used my ring and pinky the length odf my ring finger would keep my pinky away from the head. I also do another no no I use the bridge as an an anchor when picking close and fast down by the bridge.

Go on youtube and you'll see a zillion methods and there all from the worlds greatest pickers.

Edited by - overhere on 12/04/2011 03:33:28

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/04/2011:  11:23:02

Hi Kmwaters,

In my experience, shaping the picks correctly and positioning one’s right-hand correctly are extremely important to the tone, volume, picking efficiency and precision, and ergonomics to prevent injuries to one’s hands. It is not a case of “any which way will work just as well”.

It is exactly analogous to how violinists learn to hold and use their bow; this is a big part of learning to play violin. Whatever is being used to “excite” the strings of an instrument-- fiddle bow, flat pick, fingerpicks, fingernails, etc.-- have a great deal to do with the quality of sound produced and the ergonomic factors. When I taught banjo, the first thing I would do was to check how the student was holding his or her hands, and if their fingerpicks were shaped and situated optimally for them.

There is no one “right way” for right-hand posture, but there is certainly a most effective, efficient, and ergonomic way for each player-- and that is what you need to spend some time determining for yourself—how tall you are, how long your arms are, the size of your hand, how high on your body you wear the banjo, etc.— all of these factors will affect your pick attack.

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CAVEAT: If you are totally satisfied with your tone, volume, picking efficiency and precision, and ergonomics, please read no further. The rest of this post is based on logic and quantifiable data, and contains little or no opinion content.

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PRIMARY FOCUS

Solving this puzzle doesn’t start with one’s shoulder, arm, or wrist arch; it starts where the “rubber meets the road”—where the fingerpick hits the string.

Here’s the key question: “Are you striking the strings squarely in the center of the pick, allowing the strings to just glide off the last 3/16 of an inch of the blade tip, using economy of motion—and obtaining the desired tone and volume a way that will not cause harm to your wrist or hand?” This is the “sweet spot” of the fingerpick, and Bill Keith makes this exact point in the Masters of the Five String Banjo, (Trishcka & Wernick, pg. 185)

In my world view, facts and real-world observations trump opinions every time, so I did some research on this topic when the subject came up a few months ago.

ANGLE OF BANJO NECK TO PLAYER’S BODY

The first major factor to consider is the angle of the banjo neck to the player’s body. Some people seem to be under the impression that most banjo players hold the banjo at a 45-degree angle to their body. This is not true; in fact it is virtually impossible. For ease of left-hand fingering, most accomplished players position the neck to roughly bisect the distance between their shoulder and elbow, which, unless  they situate the body of the banjo down by their kneecaps, cannot be a 45-degree angle.

Using a protractor and some of the photos in MOTFSB, (along with a few LP covers) here is what I found: Scruggs: ~72°; Reno: ~72°; Stanley: ~73°; Crowe: ~65°; Keith: ~60°. So around 70 degrees seems to be the median—certainly not 45 degrees.

This is quantifiable data. If you don’t believe me, get a protractor and check it out for yourself.

ANGLE OF FINGERS TO STRINGS

The ideal angle for fingers to attack the strings would obviously be 90°. However this is physically impossible to do and maintain the neck in the correct position for ease of fingering (~70 degrees). None of the master banjo players that I looked at appeared to be attacking the strings at a 90 degree angle. Here’s what I found: Scruggs: ~120°; Stanley: ~105°; Crowe: ~108°; Keith: ~110°.

None of these excellent players maintains a 90-degree (perpendicular) angle of fingers and fingerpicks to the strings.

This is quantifiable data. If you don’t believe me, get a protractor and check it out for yourself. (I measured the angle of the line formed between the index and middle fingers to the line of the 3^rd string--the centerline of the banjo neck.)

Even if you could manage to have your middle finger attack the string at a 90-degree angle, your index finger will not be hitting at the exact same angle. The two fingers are about one inch apart, and the index finger must play the 2^nd, 3^rd, and 4^th string—a range of 1-3/16 inch from the 1^st string. Basic geometry will tell you that these two fingers will strike the strings at different angles.

FINGERPICK BLADE ANGLE

It is very important to adjust your picks so that they hit the strings correctly.

The pick blade should hit at a slight angle to the strings to allow it to make contact effectively, and glide along the pick blade for only a very short distance—because the string will not sound until the pick is no longer in contact with the pick blade. If the pickblade angle is too straight, the blade “slams” into the string, wasting energy, slowing down your playing, and delaying the sounding of the string because the pick remains in contact with the string too long.

First, make sure the pickblade is angled correctly so that the force is applied from the fingertip rather than the fingerpad—because the fingertips have more muscle-force behind them. If the blade is curved correctly, it will allow the pick to strike the string and slide off quickly to provide the “snap, crackle, pop” of good banjo playing.

The pickblade angle is very important. I have experimented with many different angles to maximize volume and pick efficiently over the years. When the Masters of the Five String Banjo book came out, I was eager to see how Earl shaped his fingerpicks. As far as I can tell from the photos, he is wrapping the blades at, or very close to the 32 degrees angle that I had already settled on. Other players who use a blade angle of approximately 32 degrees include: Reno, Stanley, Crowe, Keith, Osborne, and Shelton, judging from photographs I've examined. (See diagram below.)

Players who have reshaped their fingerpick blades to a 32-degree angle have typically reported better tone, volume, "pop", and easier playing.

ROTATING THE FINGERPICKS ON YOUR FINGER

To get the fingerpick to strike the string squarely (one of our primary goals), many players rotate the fingerpick slightly, especially on the index finger.

Rotating a pick from the “6:00” position to the “5:00” position on your finger is a difference of 30 degrees. Let’s see-- 120° minus 30° equals 90°, the ideal angle.   So rotating one or both picks on your fingers starts making sense, doesn’t it?

Based on one of the photos in the book, it looks like Earl does slightly rotate at least the fingerpick on his index finger, and maybe both—it’s hard to tell from the photo. (MOTFSB, p. 32)  If Earl Scruggs does it, it is okay for the rest of us to do!

To rotate the picks does not require twisting the blades—it is much easier than that. To rotate the picks on your finger, first make sure that you have adjusted the pick-bands to be comfortable on your fingers. Then simply push the two bands slightly to the right (one at a time), so that the center-hole now lines up with the left pick-band—this will rotate the pick to about 5:00 on your finger. I also slightly rotate the middle-fingerpick, to about 5:30. You may find a different amount of rotation works better for you. This is just a starting point, not a mandate.

ERGONOMICS & WRIST ARCH:

Although JD Crowe, Sonny. and Allen Shelton arched their wrists quite a bit in the MOTFSB photos, keep in mind they were all playing with the banjo strap over just their right shoulder, and that requires much more of an arch to the wrist to hold the banjo in place. Scruggs, Reno, and most other players pictured in the MOTFSB book with the banjo strap coming off their left shoulder, had a very little arch to their wrists.

I’ve looked at my wrist posture and it looks quite a bit like Scruggs’, Reno’s, etc.  Sitting down, my wrist is about one inch above the banjo head, and standing up, it is about 1-1/4 above the banjo head. An overarched wrist could lead to tendonitis and carpal tunnel nerve problems. While it looks cool, I’d recommend avoiding it.

PICKING MOTION

Picking motion should be precise and efficient for maximum effectiveness and ergonomics.

Earl Scruggs: “I hold the palm of my hand so that it is almost even [parallel] to the banjo head, and I keep the long parts of my fingers—the first bone part nearest the palm—almost straight with the palm. Then, after the knuckles, I bend my fingers back—more than most players do, I think. Because of that sharp angle, and the way I pick at the strings, I have to bend my picks back until the part that contacts the strings is flat with it. Most of my picking motion—in the parts of my fingers that do the most movement—happens after the big knuckle, and it is just the last two parts of the finger that do most of the picking and moving.” (Masters of the Five String Banjo, Trishcka & Wernick, pg. 25-26).

Earl’s very efficient picking motion can be observed on the many DVDs of the Flatt & Scruggs Martha White TV shows.

ANCHORING FINGERS

I have never seen an accomplished banjo player who did not anchor at least one finger. Anchoring one or more fingers is required for precision of one’s finger-picking. Many excellent banjo players use two fingers, some use just one finger, such as Allen Shelton, Doug Dillard, etc. The tendons and ligaments binding the finger bones and muscles together are not as flexible as those of other people. Anchor the number of fingers that is comfortable for you, either one or two fingers.

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A good instructor should be able to help you make sure your hand posture, fingerpick shape, and picking motion are optimal for effectiveness, efficiency, and ergonomics.

- Dave

Edited by - Dave Magram on 12/04/2011 11:27:53

kmwaters - Posted - 12/05/2011:  04:48:42

Thanks a bunch Dave.  A lot of work went into this explanation and guidance obviously.  I hope all the amateur pickers take the time to do a little self help from this  - they will be thankful if they do.  Stay well.

kmwaters - Posted - 12/05/2011:  04:53:08

Eliminating excessive finger movment and stabilizing the right hand above the strings is something I have been working on and I can see the difference when I start approaching the zone of correctness on this. I have watched many videos to observe the good players and the absence of excessive movement is obvious. This is another common denominator among the great players.