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banjobilly32 - Posted - 11/14/2011: 05:23:13
While perusing Craig's list for Hartford Ct. I saw the following ad for this banjo: hartford.craigslist.org/msg/27...1346.html
This looks like a quite elaborate old tenor which may have appeal for some of our members?
I have no interest in this banjo or even know who has it for sale. (Disclaimer)
NYCJazz - Posted - 11/14/2011: 14:23:10
Niiiiice.
That's a precursor to the Silver Bell... That has the same tone ring as my #3 SB.
Thanks Billy!
PS that banjo didn't travel very far from where it was built... Hartford is close to Groton!
Edited by - NYCJazz on 11/14/2011 14:25:07
blm10jn - Posted - 11/14/2011: 19:15:13
I just got one for half that price on ebay last week
blm10jn - Posted - 11/14/2011: 19:16:39
oops I meant Blue Ribbon Bacon off ebay
NYCJazz - Posted - 11/14/2011: 21:03:56
You got that?
Congrats!
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/15/2011: 06:50:37
quote:
Originally posted by NYCJazz
... That's a precursor to the Silver Bell... That has the same tone ring as my #3 SB. ...
Hi Nathan --
Close... but no cigar!
The B&D Blue Bell was developed just AFTER the Silver Bell. And... while the
B&D Blue Bell was described in the '1923-24' catalog -- the image used for the
catalog was of the earlier Blue Ribbon 'standard' (NON-super).
NO catalog image of the actual Blue Bell exists, to my knowledge. (One is shown
in an endoser photo...)
The Blue Bell was basically an UPDATING of the 1/2-spun (standard) Blue Ribbon,
with a NEW 1/2-spun tone-ring, designed by David Day -- which is MUCH heavier,
and more robust, than the earlier BR 1/2-spun. (And better sounding...)
They also had the much nicer solid 'turned-back' snap-in resonator, with the spring-
loaded ball-latch. They were offered in dark shaded 'antique' stain, (same finish as
the early Silver Bells) or in natural maple.
They are exceptional banjos. Completely equal to to the quality of the Silver Bells.
But they are also VERY rare -- because they were only offered for one year. They
were made in 5-strings (rarest), plectrums (next rarest -- I've never seen one...) and
as 17-fret tenors. (Never seen a 19-fret version.)
People were obviously more interested in getting a Silver Bell, or the upgraded
"Super Banjo" -- with the 'flat'-flange resonators.
So... as of late-1923, the three members of the 'B&D Family" were:
o The B&D Silver Bell -- with solid turned-back resonator, and 1/4" round-hole flange
Made in the No.1 No.2 and No.3 styles.
o The B&D Super Banjo -- same construction and tone-ring as SB -- but with the
Super Banjo peghead overlay, and the small snap-in turned-back resonator.
Made in A, A-1, and De-Luxe styles. (Same details as 1, 2, 3 above)
o The B&D Blue Bell -- same construction as above, but with the heavier 1/2-spun
tone-ring. Has Blue Bell peghead overlay, and the same small snap-in turned-
back resonator. Made only in the 'A' style
Best-
Ed Britt
Slingerland - Posted - 11/15/2011: 07:00:02
Mr. Britt- Insightful as always. Thanks for sharing!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/15/2011: 08:38:22
Dear Ed,
- The B&D Blue Bell was developed just AFTER the Silver Bell
Sorry - but IMO and to the best of my knowledge absolutely NO!
The Blue Bell was introduced one whole year earlier than the Silver Bell. And 6-7 months BEFORE Mr. Day joined the Bacon Co.. Do dig deeper into your memory/archives - we´ve been there before!
Do once again think about a possible Bacon/Day co-work late ´21/early ´22 - while Day was still at Vega.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/15/2011 08:52:26
beezaboy - Posted - 11/15/2011: 09:18:01
FWIW: From The Crescendo:
1. May, 1922 - Full page ad announcing the "new" Bacon Blue Ribbon orchestra banjos.
2. Oct., 1922 - Article profile about David L. Day. and his move to Bacon.
3. June, 1923 - Ad "New" Bacon Super Banjo announced.
4. August, 1923 - Article: M.J. Scheidlmeir represented the Bacon Banjo Co. at the Drake Hotel in Chicago during the first week of June, 1923.
5. Nov., 1923 - News: The Crescendo received the "new" complete Bacon catalog that includes models: Peerless; Blue Bell; B&D Super Banjo; B&D Silver Bell (attached).
5.(a). Nov., 1923 - Bacon advertisement (attached). B&D Silver Bell introduced at Chicago Music Trade Convention last June.
NYCJazz - Posted - 11/15/2011: 09:41:50
Hi Ed! Hi Polle!
So the tone ring on this banjo, even though it's got outside holes, is a 1/2 spun and not over the rod like my Silver Bell?
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/15/2011: 09:54:27
Guys,
Easy - Easy - let our dear "Big" Ed come up with a reply / new posting at first hand.
Facts first - speculations later!
He-He!
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/15/2011 09:56:07
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/15/2011: 17:35:54
quote:
Originally posted by NYCJazz
... So the tone ring on this banjo, even though it's got outside holes, is a 1/2 spun and not over the rod like my Silver Bell? ...
Nathan --
Yes.
The earliest 'prototypes' of the Bacon Blue Ribbons were MODIFIED from Bacon "Orchestra"
models -- with holes drilled thru the 1/2-spun tone-ring, and rim.
Earliest example seen: #6620 w/ dowel stamped: "B. --THE BACON ORCHESTRA-- R."
(The B. R. stood for "Blue Ribbon")
The earliest versions had the typical Bacon Orchestra peghead and inlays.
The next versions had the "Blue Ribbon" peghead inlay, but still used the ornate Orchestra
neck inlays. Here is #6866 -- recently on ebay:
It's basically almost identical to #6620 -- except for the "Blue Ribbon" inlaid
peghead, and the lack of "B. --- R." on the dowel, since the peghead identifies it.
Note in the ebay photos that there are NO grommets in the holes...
The Bacon Orchestra was simply an openback version of the Bacon Professional
-- without the integral 'donut' resonator.
The typical Bacon Professionals did NOT have a rod under the spun tone-ring.
See the Bacon Patent:
Down load the PDF, then zoom way in... There is NO rod between the rim and the
spun ring.
Some Professionals have been upgraded -- in the last 30 years -- with the addition
of a brass rod, under the original spun tonering. This to prevents the spun tone-ring
from collapsing, down onto the bracket shoes, and crumpling. The rod also significantly
improves both volume and tone. (Which is why people modify them...)
For the BR 'prototypes' -- modified from the Orchestra models:
1. They CUT a steep bevel into the inside of the upper 1-1/4" of the rim. (And painted it black.)
2. They cut the inner lip of the Orchestra tone-ring way-y-y back -- until it's only about
5/16"-wide on the upper head-bearing surface. Again... there was NO rod used under
the spun ring.
3. They drilled two holes between each pair of bracket shoes. (Thru the tone-ring skirt and the
rim.) Hole dia. is ~.200" (13/64")
4. The earliest examples have NO grommets (eyelets) used in the holes. And there
is no evidence on the outside of the tone-ring skirt -- or inside the rim-holes -- that
any grommets were ever inserted.
5. They created a solid-back 'hubcap' resonator, that fit snuggly into the back of the rim
using a strip of purple felt for a 'friction-fit'.
When David Day finally got around to transforming the Blue Ribbon into the B&D Blue Bell, he
beefed-up ALL of the components: heavier rim, better neck, AND adding a rod under the spinning
of the tone-ring.
(Possibly it's a hollow tube... Blue Bells are so rare, I've never had one apart. They DO have the
grommets -- so it's a real pain-in-the-a$$ to remove them, without damaging either the tone-ring
skirt or the grommets themselves...)
Best-
Ed Britt
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/15/2011: 18:16:45
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
... The Blue Bell was introduced one whole year earlier than the Silver Bell. And 6-7 months BEFORE Mr. Day joined the Bacon Co.. Do dig deeper into your memory/archives - we´ve been there before!
Do once again think about a possible Bacon/Day co-work late ´21/early ´22 - while Day was still at Vega. ...
Hi Polle --
Please remember the whole period from late-1921 to late-1923 was VERY confusing.
Along with the fact that the "1923 catalog" was NEVER actually produced. (Even though it was
ANNOUNCED three or four times!)
It ultimately became the ridiculously confusing "1923-1924 catalog" -- finally delivered in early
1924 -- which has been widely reprinted. (Meaning that even MORE newbies will also be
completely confused by it!)
The Bacon "SUPER Blue Ribbon" WAS ready before the Silver Bell. And I believe the "B&D Super
Banjo" was also shown -- at the Washington, DC Guild show, in the Spring of 1923 -- BEFORE
the Silver Bell was shown (in Chicago, June 1923) since the Silver Bell wasn't completely finalized
yet. (But the notices and ads are so confusing, during that period, that I'm NOT absolutely sure...)
The change from the Bacon "SUPER Blue Ribbon" -- to the "B&D Super Banjo" -- was simple:
Just change-over to the new peghead design! The REST of the banjo remained completely the
SAME for the introduction.
The "B&D Blue Bell" was basically built on the same 'frame' as the 1st version of the "B&D Super
Banjo" -- but the new 1/2-spun tone-ring (with rod) had to be designed, and made -- as well as
making some minor changes to the upper edge of the rim interior. Day wasn't about to jeopardize
the introduction of the Silver Bell -- to work on the 'low-end' of the B&D line, first...
Neither Bacon nor Day attended the Music Merchants show in Chicago. Scheidlmeier did the gig
by himself! (Day probably staggered home to get a few hours of sleep -- before going back work
on the Blue Bell.)
Earliest B&D Super Banjo I've seen: # 90xx
Earliest B&D Silver Bell I've seen: # 91xx
Earliest B&D Blue Bell I've seen: # 95xx
And yes, I DO think there was some (ahem...) 'collaboration' between Fred Bacon and David Day --
BEFORE Day gave his resignation to Vega. But that would have been on the original 1/2-spun
Blue Ribbon model... introduced in April 1922.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/15/2011 18:21:49
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/15/2011: 18:33:42
Ed is right - B&D Blue Bell´s will have to be extremely rare - the example at craigslist is the first one for me to see. So also I have no clue about a rod or tube.
The 10 examples in my database are all reported as Bacon Blue Bell´s - manufactured from very early 1922 to mid 1924.
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/15/2011: 18:39:17
Ed,
Oops - our postings crossed!
As mentioned above this is the first B&D Blue Bell for me to see - all examples in my database are Bacon Blue Bell´s (SN´s going from 7260 to 14012) - manufacturing of these started 6-8 months before Day joined the Bacon company.
I´ll try to get some pics of one of these early examples - I´m curious about the spun/perforated ring.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/15/2011 18:50:58
NYCJazz - Posted - 11/15/2011: 18:51:22
Thanks Ed!
It's always informative to hear from you!
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/16/2011: 08:05:13
I'll be scanning some pages from the 1923-24 catalog -- to show some of the issues which
cause much of the confusion.
And I'll be trying to create a simple, condensed narrative of the timeline, various events,
model changes, introductions, etc. -- which led to the creation of the initial 3 models of the
B&D Family:
o the B&D Silver Bell
o the B&D Super Banjo
o the B&D Blue Bell
But it may take me a few days to do that. It's better that I think it through, and find my
correct sources -- than to 'wing-it' quickly...
To quickly answer Polle's concerns about 'early' "Bacon" Blue Bells in his database...
The "B&D Blue Bells" were included in the 1923-24 catalog. The catalog gave the correct
DESCRIPTIONS of the Blue Bells -- but it used PHOTOS of the earlier BACON BLUE RIBBONS
to illustrate the Blue Bell pages!
So, when people look at the photos -- they see a Bacon Blue Ribbon -- and think it's called a
B&D Blue Bell. THAT is were the confusion comes from!
There are NO "BACON Blue Bells".
There are a small number of "Bacon SUPER Blue Ribbons" which are stamped "B&D" on the dowel.
They were the direct precursors to the "B&D Super Banjo", and were probably stamped that way, to
be sold at the introduction of the "B&D Super Banjo" -- at the Washington DC Guild show, in Spring
of 1923. (That was apparently the FIRST time a "B&D" banjo was introduced!)
A photo of the ACTUAL "B&D Blue Bell" was never shown in any Bacon catalog, to MY knowledge.
I believe it MAY have been shown in one of the distributor catalogs -- but I'm not positive about that.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/16/2011 08:15:58
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/16/2011: 11:10:35
Ed,
Well - building up a database - partly/mostly based on records from others - isn´t an easy task. Errors will sometimes occur - on the other hand does the large number of records often give an overview impossible to get in any other way. The latter proven several times in the past. Agree?
I´ve gone through the Blue Bell records in my database - it turns out, that several/many of them are somewhat imprecise - one of them will have to be decidedly incorrect and very disturbing (I can´t find the report about this banjo for now - I´ve decided deleting the record - I´ll continue searching for the report in other archives).
I´ve also found another picture showing B&D at the peghead on one of the banjos - so taking your statement as granted - I´ve changed the brand name for these banjos in the database.
In spite of such imprecise or somewhat incorrect records I do in fact consider them basically more trustworthy than ALL Bacon catalogs/ads/flyers from those days. LOL!
FYI - for now the first Silver Bell in the database is SN 9196 - the first Blue Bell is SN 9201. Both most likely shipped the same day.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/16/2011 11:12:03
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/16/2011: 14:55:22
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Well - building up a database - partly/mostly based on records from others - isn´t an easy task. Errors will sometimes occur - on the other hand does the large number of records often give an overview impossible to get in any other way. The latter proven several times in the past. Agree?
Hi Polle--
I certainly agree about the difficulty of using data based on records from others! But errors occur
even in my OWN reports on a some banjos. (Usually that's because I've never come across a certain
feature, or model before.) And remember... my own records are only heavy in data from about #4000
to #15000. About 1919 thru 1925. (And the early No.6 models.)
My area of study is rather esoteric -- because not that many people are as interested in the early
'quirky' Bacons. More people are interested in the GREAT Bacons of the later-'20s and the early-'30s.
You and others have more interest (and better info) on the late-'20s and '30s Bacons. However, I DO
collect info on the Senoritas. Senorita #30178 was my introduction to Bacon banjos. (I bought it from the
father of a high school friend.) So I do have a 'soft spot' for them -- and especially the 'pre-B&D" ones.
Then I start getting interested, again, as the serials approach the Hurricane of '38. (And I STILL owe
you an email on some of my 'thoughts' about the early Gretsch-made Bacons...)
As for the 'overview' provided by a large number of entries... There is ALWAYS something to learn
from such data -- even if there are some mistakes in it. (I'll refer to your database for info about those
periods where I'm NOT as familiar with Bacon's instruments.)
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
I´ve gone through the Blue Bell records in my database - it turns out, that several/many of them are somewhat imprecise - one of them will have to be decidedly incorrect and very disturbing (I can´t find the report about this banjo for now - I´ve decided deleting the record - I´ll continue searching for the report in other archives).
I´ve also found another picture showing B&D at the peghead on one of the banjos - so taking your statement as granted - I´ve changed the brand name for these banjos in the database.
In spite of such imprecise or somewhat incorrect records I do in fact consider them basically more trustworthy than ALL Bacon catalogs/ads/flyers from those days. LOL!
Any "Blue Bell" AFTER #9000 would be a REAL "B&D Blue Bell".
But someone with a Bacon Blue Ribbon, BELOW #9000 might have called it a "Blue Bell" if they
identified it using the 1923-24 catalog.
There WERE a few "Bacon Blue Ribbons" (floorsweeps) made later-on. But there are also SOME
Blue Ribbons AND Blue Bells which have had their dowelsticks 'slipped' -- and the rims switched.
The Music Emporium had one for sale 15 years ago, and it was a B&D Blue Bell tenor neck on an
early Bacon Blue Ribbon DeLuxe rim. (Gold-plated 1/2-spun tone-ring WITHOUT the rod under it).
The DLX Blue Ribbon rim did NOT have a serial. Which meant it was made before approx. #7000
-- when they began stamping the inside of the rim with the serial. (Earliest seen WITH serial inside
the rim: #7096)
(Can't seem to find that B&D Blue Bell neck, in my files. It's probably on my older computer -- and I
have to get the power-supply fixed on that...)
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
FYI - for now the first Silver Bell in the database is SN 9196 - the first Blue Bell is SN 9201. Both most likely shipped the same day.
Yes, we agree on the earliest Silver Bell seen. It had just come from a family in Groton, when it sold
on ebay -- in August of 2002. It had been upgraded a few times, but the neck, and the '2-screw' rim
were original, with matching serials. Dowel is stamped with "B&D" -- but dowel is NOT stamped with
"Silver Bell". (if I remember correctly...)
It had been upgraded with:
o A later 1/2"-dia. round-hole flange -- with 4 screws
o A soft pedal
o An Oettinger tailpiece
o An armrest
o Modern geared planet-style pegs
As for #9201...
Be aware that it's still for sale at Intermountain Guitar and Banjo -- BUT it has a REPRO 5-string neck
on it.
I never asked Leo if he had the original neck for it -- or if he just bought the rim. I've assumed it was a
Bacon Blue Ribbon rim -- from the type of resonator (with the metal plates). The original "B&D Blue Bell"
resonator was a solid turned-back type, with the raised circle in it. (And NO Plates -- just a little metal
knob.)
Unless YOU know that the original neck exists somewhere -- and it IS a B&D Blue Bell. (I should email
Leo for a photo of the inside of the rim. The difference would be obvious.)
I'll try to find a photo of the inside of a B&D Blue Bell, and post it.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/16/2011 15:00:40
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/17/2011: 01:00:13
Ed,
Thanks for the infos. Maybe the disturbing SN 7260 - as deleted by me yesterday - is a similar hybrid.
I do have a photo of the inside myself - SN 12029. The inside of the "tone ring" looks "strange" - and at the computer in front of me I can´t detect whether the holes are going through the rim or not. I´ll try my Mac afterwards - it has a better screen.
Regards
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/17/2011: 02:55:09
PS!
My iPad does for sure bring out the details - the go-through holes are now visible. LOL!
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/17/2011: 05:48:52
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
... I do have a photo of the inside myself - SN 12029. The inside of the "tone ring" looks "strange" - and at the computer in front of me I can´t detect whether the holes are going through the rim or not. I´ll try my Mac afterwards - it has a better screen.
Hi Polle --
Yes! That IS a B&D Blue Bell rim, and tone-ring.
The black area below the tone-ring is cut-back slightly, from the inner surface of the rim.
Then that surface is rounded, at the top inner edge -- just below the spun-over rod of the
tone-ring, The rod is 'captive' in the spun metal -- like in a Vega "Little Wonder" tone-ring.
And the bottom surface of the rod sits directly on the top surface of the rim.
(The details of that inner black surface usually do NOT photograph very well. It's very
difficult to show the 'profile' of the surface clearly.)
The 1/2-spun Blue Ribbon rims:
The 1/2-spun Blue Ribbon rims have a similar cut-back black area, near the top -- with holes
going through it. BUT... the cut-back surface has a shallow angle going up to the edge of
the tone-ring. The tone ring does NOT have a rod under it. The spun metal is just bent at the
top, and a short section of the spinning (about 3/8" long) angles down to meet the inner edge
of the black area. There is a little air-space under the top bend of the tone-ring.
Thanks!
Ed Britt
PS -- Earlier, I stated that:
"... The original "B&D Blue Bell" resonator was a solid turned-back type, with the raised circle
in it. (And NO Plates -- just a little metal knob.).."
That's NOT always true. SOME of the turned-back Blue Bell resonators DO have the two metal
plates, as used on the earlier Bacon Blue Ribbons. The one on Craig's list DOES have the plates
-- and the resonator IS the correct type. (I also ran across another in my files, that had the correct
resonator WITH the plates.)
So... Some DO have the plates... Some DO NOT have the plates.
EB
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/17/2011 06:06:06
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/17/2011: 06:05:41
Ed,
Great - thanks - and yes, many such 3D-details can´t be detected at a 2D-photo - you´ll have to have the banjo in your hand - at first hand (?????)
BTW - the SN 12029 has a 11½" pot - this was according to the 1924 "catalog" an option - the 11" was more or less the standard (as for other B&D models at that time) - do you by any chance have an impression of the ratio between these sizes - as actually built?
Regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/17/2011: 06:21:24
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
... BTW - the SN 12029 has a 11½" pot - this was according to the 1924 "catalog" an option - the 11" was more or less the standard (as for other B&D models at that time) - do you by any chance have an impression of the ratio between these sizes - as actually built? ...
Hi Polle--
I have no 'hard' data on the percentages. But my impression is that there were MORE large rims
made in the early-'20s -- and FEWER large rims in the late-'20s.
As a 'guess':
o Maybe 30-40% of the early-'20s rims were large diameter.
o Maybe 10% of the late-'20s rims were large diameter.
So, that's a very rare B&D Blue Bell... I've never seen one with a large rim.
Can I assume it has the slightly longer scale, as well?
(Typical scale for a 17-fret, 11"-rim Blue Bell is 22".)
Best,
Ed Britt
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/17/2011: 07:32:56
Ed,
Thanks - it´s also my impression, that many of the early 20s were custom (optionally) ordered with the big-pots. I´ll go through my extended database - maybe I can get a hint of a ratio/percentage.
Here´s the front of SN 12029 - I wasn´t aware of any possible differences in scale for the two versions of these early B&D´s. But then again - I´ve never had any of these in my hands.
BTW - a complete different - but at the same time somehow connected question:
It´s my impression, that the Symphonie model was at first hand introduced early 1930 with a 12" pot only (or maybe even a 12 1/8" - I haven´t been able determining this) - somewhat later an 11" version was offered as an option - this version soon became the most popular - and the original version went out of production.
I think, that Gibson at the same time also introduced a similar archtop big-pot, but also soon realized, that the customers didn´t like it.
As you know, the fleur-de-lis flange holes were characteristic for the Symphonie model over the years - however for the first year or so the 11" version got a stepped flange with F-holes.
I´ve always wondered about this - do you think, that maybe the company was taken by surprise - due to a prominent demand for the optional version - and didn´t have flanges for this in stock - as a result they simply took flanges meant for f.ex. Sultana´s and used these instead? Production had at that time severely decreased - funds did maybe come short as for many branches.
Oh - history and research is indeed great fun - thanks for the co-work so far.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/17/2011 07:43:18
Baconfine - Posted - 11/17/2011: 10:15:33
Hi all. I may can tell some about this Blue Bell- I had years ago contact with the owner and he send me the picture of the tone ring . It is the first Blue Ribbon issue- right!!- with a short lip over the top edge of the rim- outside holes
see the picture
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/19/2011: 09:21:40
Hi --
I still need to get my 'narrative' done, describing the transition from the Bacon Orchestra
models to the B&D Silver Bell. (It will take a bit longer -- I have to do some yard work
this weekend, while I still have some good weather...)
In the meantime, I've created 3 drawings showing some cross-sections of the three main
banjos of the early-'20s transition toward the Silver Bell. All of these tone-rings had minor
variations... They were in a state of rapid development -- so functional and aesthetic changes
were made almost constantly, from late-1921 to early-1924.
(And more changes would soon happen -- as they improved the line, and expanded
it -- with the intro of the No.4, No.5, and No.6, by 1925.)
1. Bacon Blue Ribbon:
The earliest style of Blue Ribbon 1/2-spun tone-ring, sketched from an early high-end
Bacon 'Orchestra -- Blue Ribbon' 5-string (earliest fancy BR 5-string I've seen).
Many people assume that only the lower models had the 1/2-spun Blue Ribbon tone-ring.
Initially, the 1/2-spun ring was the ONLY Blue Ribbon tone-ring -- and was used in Style A,
the Style A-1(carved), and the De-Luxe [X] (carved & gold). The A-1 and Deluxe were often
stamped "SPECIAL".
Bacon's protege, Frank Bradbury, recieved the Style De-Luxe 'Orchestra -- Blue Ribbon'
5-string, shown at the NYC introduction of the Blue Ribbon models, in April 1922.
#6895 -- Dowel stamped: "SPECIAL" "THE BACON ORCHESTRA" "A-1"
No 'Groton stamp' and no Serial on rim. Dowel has an overlay with b/w/b stripes.(Typical of
early Groton-made banjos.
(NOTE: Rim serials show up on Groton-made banjos at about #7000. The 'Groton stamp'
shows up at about #7500. I speculate that both features were probably requested by
newly-arrived David Day, in Sept 1922. The custom 'Groton stamp' would have been
custom-ordered -- and would have arrived sometime later.)
It has the "Blue Ribbon" peghead inlay , and is made of holly, with a carved heel. It was
probably made to be displayed at the NYC Blue Ribbon introduction, in 1922.
o 11" rim -- only .50" thick, with ~27" scale
![<a href=]()
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2. Bacon SUPER* Blue Ribbon: A late version of the Bacon "SUPER Blue Ribbon" FULL-spun tone-ring. It would become the
initial version of the "Silver Bell" tone-ring -- with some minor changes. Sketched from a
"De-Luxe" model 5-string. (Essentially a predecessor of the style 'No.3' -- carved and gold-
plated).
#8519 -- Rim and dowel have matching serials. Dowel stamped: "SUPER BACON BLUE
RIBBON" "DE–LUXE" and it has the 'Groton stamp'. Dowel has b/w/b stripes inlaid into it.
Has the "Blue Ribbon" inlay in the bound peghead. Curly maple, with dark antique finish.
carved heel, gold-plated. Has spun-metal rim-cap. Has the 'middle-period' laminated
snap-in resonator. The grommets were replaced by stamping raised 'faux' grommet-heads
into the skirt of the tone-ring, on both the outside and the inside. (Earlier "Supertone" versions
used real grommets inside and out.)
o 11-1/2" rim with 26"-scale 5-string neck (22 + 2-fret extension)
* NOTE: Bacon "SUPERTONE Blue Ribbon" was the original name, for the FULL-spun
tone-ring, introduced around Serial #8300. (Earliest "Supertone" I've seen is #8309)
I assume they ran into trademark problems -- since "Supertone" was already being
used for another banjo make. (If so... It was a surprisingly 'dumb' mistake...)
I did this drawing over 20 years ago, just to document one that I had apart. I forgot to add the
larger 'faux' grommet-heads on the lower edge of the outside skirt. (In-line with the 'faux'
grommets inside.)
The holes in the 1/2 -spun Blue Ribbons go straight through the rim. But the top of the SUPER
Blue Ribbon rim (and the Silver Bell rim) is cut differently. The inner wall of the FULL-spun
tone-ring creates a hollow "resonance chamber" between the metal and the rim.
![<a href=]()
hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg" height="651" src="http://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/photos/large/83/8334-2752819112011.jpg" style="cursor: -moz-zoom-in;" width="677" />
The holes on the outside of the tone-ring skirt are usually spaced so that there is a hole to
each side, of each bracket hook (on an 11" rim). There are half as many holes on the inside --
with the inside holes centered BETWEEN two of the outside holes.
The idea is based on a bit of 'voodoo' acoustic theory... It's NOT stated precisely in the Silver
Bell patent. But I read a period description of it somewhere, that (in effect) the sound waves
exiting the rim would take longer to zig-zag through the offset openings -- thus increasing the
resonance and sustain... (Okay... sure... Must be some of that new Quantum Physics... ;-)
I believe the internal chamber does produce some resonance. But, HOW it produces that reson-
ance is probably a bit more complex -- than just zig-zagging sound waves...
However... The closed-back Blue Ribbons, Super Blue Ribbons, Blue Bells, and Silver Bells,
ARE a sort-of seat-of-the-pants 'ported' acoustical system, used in hi-fi speaker systems.
The primary benefit of the holes in the tone-ring are as a 'monitor' for the PLAYER. Some of the
sound is directed upwards, toward your ear. In the Silver Bell, The angled resonator flange provides
an even more pronounced 'monitor'. Because the sound holes in the flange are at an angle, the
sound is able to exit in both a forward direction, and laterally -- upwards and to the side.
I feel one of the reasons that the Silver Bell has been the choice of so many Jazz bands, is that
the PLAYER can clearly hear what he/she is playing -- in spite of horns and drums blasting right
next to them. (The OTHER players on the bandstand can ALSO hear the banjo clearly.) Many
of the other major makes are oriented to be completely 'front-firing'. (Gibson in particular.) It can be
VERY difficult for the players to clearly hear what they are playing -- without loudspeaker monitors.
3. B&D Blue Bell: A slightly different version of the "Blue Bell" 1/2-spun tone-ring, than the one shown by Polle.
Polle's has a 'smooth' upper black section. This version has a pronounced 'step' in the upper
black section -- somewhat like a piece of 1/4-round decorative molding. (Could simply be an
"Oops!" Or, it could be an intentional aesthetic 'feature'. (There are not enough examples known,
to be able to tell, for sure.) It's on a 17-fret tenor.
#10919 -- Rim and dowel serials match. Dowel stamped ONLY with "B&D" and with the 'Groton
Stamp'. (Nothing else.) Dowel has inlaid b/w/b stripes. Has the "B&D Blue Bell" peghead inlay. It's
made of straight maple, finished natural. Missing its original snap-in resonator. (It would have
had the solid turned- back, type -- like Achim's composite-photo shows. It has the two fittings --
for the alignment pin, and for the spring-loaded ball-latch --used by those resonators.)
o 11" rim, with a 22" scale
![<a href=]()
hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg" height="651" src="http://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/photos/large/83/8334-3852819112011.jpg" style="cursor: -moz-zoom-in;" width="677" />
I hope that info is useful in understanding the early development and evolution of the B&D Family of banjos.
By late-1923, the three B&D models were:
o The B&D Silver Bell -- Full extension resonator, with 1/4-dia. round hole flange. Presto
tailpiece, friction tuners, wire armrest as option. Available in 5-string, plectrum, and 17-fret
tenor necks (or 17+5-fret extension). Larger rims could be special ordered.
Available in Styles No.1, No.2 (carved / silver-plated, or nickel), and No.3 (carved / gold-plated)
(19 fret tenors, f-hole flanges, Soft Pedal mutes, and Oettinger tailpieces, had NOT been
developed yet! Engraved production models were also NOT developed yet.)
o The B&D Super Banjo -- Basically the 'open-back' version of the Silver Bell. Had a 'hubcap'
-style snap-in resonator, with lathe-turned back The Super Banjo was identical in construction,
snap-in function, and appearance, to the Silver Bell -- except for the different peghead inlay.
Available in Style A, A-1 (carved / silver-plated, or nickel), and De-Luxe (carved / gold-plated).
o The B&D Blue Bell -- The Blue Bell was the "Little Wonder" of the B&D line-up. It had the same
basic construction, and similar appearance details as the Super Banjo, and Silver Bell-- but it
had the updated 1/2-spun tone-ring, with a steel rod underneath. The necks were IDENTICAL
to the Silver Bell -- except for the different peghead overlay. (And some have been 'swapped'
onto Silver Bell bodies because of that similarity!)
Available in Style A only. (Most examples don't even have the "A" stamped on the dowel.) Gold-
plated examples were noted in period literature. I have never seen a B&D Blue Bell with an
original carved neck... But anything could have been special-ordered. As noted, the Blue Bell
was available in the standard antique shaded dark stain -- or in natural maple finish.
Best-
Ed Britt
E. Britt ©11/2011
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/19/2011 09:36:04
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/19/2011: 09:43:30
OOPS! I wrote:
o The B&D Super Banjo -- Basically the 'open-back' version of the Silver Bell. Had a 'hubcap'
-style snap-in resonator, with lathe-turned back The Super Banjo was identical in construction,
snap-in function, and appearance, to the Silver Bell -- except for the different peghead inlay.
That SHOULD have read:
o The B&D Super Banjo -- Basically the 'open-back' version of the Silver Bell. Had a 'hubcap'-style
snap-in resonator, with lathe-turned back The Super Banjo was OTHERWISE identical in
construction, function, and appearance, to the Silver Bell -- except for the different peghead
inlay.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/19/2011 09:46:13
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/19/2011: 15:38:51
Ed,
Great work and infos - thanks! Indeed interesting.
I wasn´t aware of the "length" of the grommets - I´ve always thought of them as being tube rivets, with "heads" at both out- and inside of the spun ring. The "length" means that will have been pressed/hammered in after the placement of the spun ring. Correct?
I wonder why they used genuine grommets on the Blue Bell´s, at a time when they had started using the faux grommets on other models. But then again - so many strange "things" happened at that time - LOL!
Polle
blm10jn - Posted - 11/19/2011: 19:34:31
Ed & Polle,
# 6866 does not have the grommets in the tone ring nor does it appear to have ever had them. There is no indication around the holes, no wear, no line, nothing. Were grommets added to the Blue Ribbon tone ring at a later date and 6866 is pre grommet? Or could they have been left out on some and put in on others? It does have a grommet in the pot for the spring loaded pin found on the pie plate resonator that looks original. However, the pie plate that came with it does not look original Bacon having neither the spring loaded pin or any provisions for any hardware. It is also missing 7 original flat hooks and the correct nuts.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/20/2011: 00:55:43
J.,
Ed will maybe have experienced other BR´s like this.
SN 6866 dates to late 1921 - in april 1922 Bacon applied for a patent for a banjo with a ½-spun tone ring - the drawing shows NO grommets.
SN 6895 - as shown by Ed - does however have grommets. Maybe because it was a "fancy" example - I don´t know - maybe Ed does.
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 07:25:21
quote:
Originally posted by blm10jn
... # 6866 does not have the grommets in the tone ring nor does it appear to have ever had them. There is no indication around the holes, no wear, no line, nothing. Were grommets added to the Blue Ribbon tone ring at a later date and 6866 is pre grommet? Or could they have been left out on some and put in on others? ...
Hi J. --
I assume you are now the new owner of #6866? If so... Congratulations!
That's a nice early banjo, and has 'importance' as a historical piece -- rather than as a
serious player's instrument, or as a collector's flashy showpiece.
In effect, it's an early 'prototype' of the "First Step" towards the development of the
B&D Silver Bell.
First-off, let me put your mind to rest.
From what I can see, your banjo is almost 100% original.
Possible exceptions being:
o The head might be a replacement...
o The bridge is a later style...
Neither of which affects its importance, or value, much -- if at all.
In my second posting (on the 1st page) I mentioned the lack of grommets, in the earliest
examples of the Bacon 'Orchestra -- Blue Ribbons'. Your banjo fits this designation and
approximate serial range.
So... Yes, #6866 probably never had any grommets in the tone-ring holes.
I use the word 'probably' because we are ALL learning about this period of rapid development
in the Bacon Co.. I've often taken a specific view (or theory) based on some 'current knowledge'
-- which I've needed to change, later, as more information and examples became known.
This is like 'banjo archeology', or a forensic investigation -- nothing is completely certain. We
have to put on our deerslayer hats, and play Sherlock Holmes... Trying to deduce the reasonable
possibilities, from the evidence available to us.
The grommets are simply pressed into the holes, and are held there by friction.
o They sometimes DO become loose, fall out, and get lost.
o If the banjo head is pulled-down too far, the grommets can get crushed by the head's flesh-hoop.
o And... the grommets DO need to be removed, to take the tone-ring off. And can be forgotten.
In most cases, there is visible evidence that grommets were once in the holes. The area covered
by the grommets is often shiny, while the plating around the area is more tarnished. There are often
minor circular scratches left, from the grommets being pressed-in. Or, there can be scratches as
evidence of the head crushing some grommets -- or of someone prying them out, with a sharp tool.
NOTE:
IF the grommets need to be removed... use a metal rod, inserted from INSIDE the rim, to
GENTLY push them out. (Then put the grommets in a ziplock bag. LABEL the bag with
the serial # and model, and put it in the case pocket.)
Pushing the grommets out with a rod -- from the inside -- is relatively easy on a 1/2-spun rim.
But think about the FULL-spun SUPERTONE Blue Ribbons -- with grommets inserted into the
outside AND inside of the tone-ring. Imagine how difficult it was to remove them. They HAD
to be pried-out -- which usually damages the grommet heads.
THAT is the reason Bacon STAMPED the 'faux' grommet-heads into the outer and inner skirts
of the later SUPER Blue Ribbons, and the early Silver Bells. The tone-ring could slide off, in the
typical way.
quote:
Originally posted by blm10jn
... It does have a grommet in the pot for the spring loaded pin found on the pie plate resonator that looks original. However, the pie plate that came with it does not look original Bacon having neither the spring loaded pin or any provisions for any hardware. It is also missing 7 original flat hooks and the correct nuts.
Your solid-back resonator IS the correct resonator for the banjo. It did NOT have the
either the fancy metal plates with a springy bent tab, or the late spring-loaded ball latch.
(It seems to be missing some of it's felt edging, and the little wooden knob -- which should be
mounted at the 'latch' end of the resonator. NOT at the 'pin' end.)
If you look carefully, you'll see your resonator has two notches on the back edge of it -- at the
centerline. Looking more carefully -- you should see a small hole in each of those notches.
There was a brass staple hammered into the notches, and then bent-down at a right angle --
to make it into a 'spring-catch'.
Now look closely inside the rim, just above the tail-end of the dowel. there should be a small
brass brad-head visible. THAT is what the bent-staple snapped-over. It was a very feeble design,
and did NOT work well. The metal plates were better. (But the metal tab often broke off...)
The spring-loaded 'ball-latch' worked the best. Those were purchased, and typically used in
cabinetmaking for latching small cubbyhole doors, in desks, etc.
The spring-loaded ball-latch was ONLY used on the heavy, lathe-turned solid-back resonators
used on the late-models of the Bacon "SUPER Blue Ribbon", the "B&D Super Banjo", and on
the "B&D Blue Bell".
The flat hooks and appropriate nuts, for this type of Bacon, are relatively common. Check with
repair people, vintage dealers, and collectors -- to see if they have any 'spares' you can buy.
Treat #6866 with care, and respect. It's an historical 'artifact'. Please DO NOT modify it. And
DON'T try to make it into your 'main player'. (It simply won't hold up to that level of use.)
There are very few examples of its type. I can suggest 'fixes' and 'repairs' which can help solve
problems -- without compromising the banjo's historical integrity. It's a RARE banjo -- even if it's
relatively inexpensive, compared to the later Silver Bells.
Enjoy #6866 for what it IS!
(And don't try to upgrade it into something it never was.)
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/20/2011 07:39:49
esmic - Posted - 11/20/2011: 09:25:19
Great sketch details, Ed and wonderful developmental detective work.
Below are pics of my Blue Ribbon A1, with full spun tone ring and “Supertone” impressed in the dowel. Serial is 8040, indicating “Supertone” was introduced somewhat earlier than your data suggests.
Rather than the “Supertone” description being dropped over trade mark issues, isn’t it more likely that once the Bacon BR full spun rim was developed into the B&D “Super banjo”, the term “Supertone” simply became redundant or confusing and was abandoned. The B&D Blue Bell, (the BR’s short lived successor) was contemporaneous with the Super and available as the A model with half spun rim only, presumably so as not to be confused with or compete with the Super.
It appears as though your BR Supertone section drawing shows a rim design that is very similar to the 1923 Silver Bell patent section, except within the SB’s spun rim there appears to be an additional ribbon of spun metal tight against the wood rim, so that both faces of the “resonant chamber“ are lined with metal. Not having taken a Silver Bell rim apart myself, Can you verify whether I have it right? I may try some 3D modeling of the early rims, with reference to your sections and the patent drawing, so some additional info would help.
S.Mc.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 09:34:12
quote:
Originally posted by Baconfine
Hi all. I may can tell some about this Blue Bell- I had years ago contact with the owner and he send me the picture of the tone ring . It is the first Blue Ribbon issue- right!!- with a short lip over the top edge of the rim- outside holes
see the picture
Hi Achim --
It's difficult to read the serial number in your composite photo.
Do you remember what it is?
Possibly?:
#9354
Or?:
#9554
Or else?:
#9334
#9534
THANKS!
Best-
Ed Britt
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 13:00:06
quote:
Originally posted by esmic
Great sketch details, Ed and wonderful developmental detective work.
Below are pics of my Blue Ribbon A1, with full spun tone ring and “Supertone” impressed in the dowel. Serial is 8040, indicating “Supertone” was introduced somewhat earlier than your data suggests. ...
Hi Shawn --
OOPS! Sorry about that! You had already SENT that info to me. My apologies for NOT
noticing it in MY database. I now has its rightful place of honor.
The OTHER banjo has held that 'earliest' SUPERTONE position for almost 15 years!
So I've had it memorized for may years. (Now I'll have to do that with yours!)
By the way... THE banjo which got me going on this crazy "Transitional" Bacon quest was an
almost IDENTICAL Bacon "SUPERTONE Blue Ribbon" #8452 -- Holly with carved heel.
Also in spectacular condition.
I also just noticed I also have a cryptic note about #7926 as a "BR SUPER" (Which would have
to be a SUPERTONE at that point.) I don't have the reference noted, and can't find it in my
old 3x5 cards.
Possibly it was 'suspect' somehow -- and I didn't keep it in the main data files...
quote:
Originally posted by esmic
... Rather than the “Supertone” description being dropped over trade mark issues, isn’t it more likely that once the Bacon BR full spun rim was developed into the B&D “Super banjo”, the term “Supertone” simply became redundant or confusing and was abandoned. The B&D Blue Bell, (the BR’s short lived successor) was contemporaneous with the Super and available as the A model with half spun rim only, presumably so as not to be confused with or compete with the Super. ...
Nope.
1. "SUPERTONE Blue Ribbon" was the INITIAL name for the FULL-spun Blue Ribbon.
2. "SUPER Blue Ribbon" became the 2nd name -- SOMETHING happened between
about #8525 and #8550 to make them CHANGE the name (and rim-stamp).
o #8519 -- (Used for sketch above) is stamped: "SUPERTONE" on dowel, "Blue Ribbon" peghead
o #8564 -- Bacon BR A-1 Holly 5-string, stamped: "SUPER" on dowel, "Blue Ribbon" peghead
3. "B&D SUPER BANJO " was the 3rd name -- *apparently* introduced at the 1923 Guild show, in
Washington, DC.
NOTE: I'm still working on verifying that information. Sources I have are NOT completely clear on it.
The EARLIEST "B&D Super Banjo" I've seen is #9064 -- a Style A 17-fret Tenor.
o The dowel is stamped ONLY with "B&D" and "STYLE A", the serial, and 'Groton Stamp'
"SUPER" is NOT stamped on the dowel.
(The Silver Bell was introduced, at a Music Merchant's show, in Chicago, the 1st week of June, 1923.)
So... there were THREE DIFFERENT model names derived from "super"
quote:
Originally posted by esmic
... It appears as though your BR Supertone section drawing shows a rim design that is very similar to the 1923 Silver Bell patent section, except within the SB’s spun rim there appears to be an additional ribbon of spun metal tight against the wood rim, so that both faces of the “resonant chamber“ are lined with metal. Not having taken a Silver Bell rim apart myself, Can you verify whether I have it right? I may try some 3D modeling of the early rims, with reference to your sections and the patent drawing, so some additional info would help.
Arrgh... Y'know... The Silver Bell patent drawing is one of THE most irritating patent drawings
I've ever seen....
It was obviously STARTED by a VERY experienced draftsman -- who has everything correct. But
then it was handed-off to a complete neophyte to finish. The second guy had obviously NEVER seen
a banjo -- and had no clue about how the HOW the head, tension hoop, and bracket-hooks worked!
He ruined one of THE most elegant patent drawings I've seen. I've taken the liberty to ERASE most
of the offending lines from the drawing -- so that what you see, is actually what happens under an
EARLY Silver Bell tone-ring. (The atrocious bracket shoe has been left alone...)
You'll see that the spun tone-ring profile is almost exactly what I drew.
In MY drawing, there is a little raised surface of wood, just behind the inner tone-ring wall -- right where the
stamped 'faux' grommet is -- that is NOT present in the typical EARLY silver Bell. The inner holes go right
through that small raised lip of wood. (That raised lip of wood could have simply been a mistake, made
while machining #8519.)
You'll also note, in the patent drawing, that the hole is shown going all the way through the rim, but the
exterior 'faux grommet is NOT shown in the patent drawing either. (A obvious mistake... It should be there,)
![<a href=]()
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MY drawing was taken from actual measurements (with a dial caliper) of the rim and tone-ring for #8519,
while I had it apart for cleaning.
I haven't had a later Silver Bell apart in MANY years... But I remember there being some slight differences,
-- in the wood surfaces -- from the earlier ones.
So... I'm not really sure what you're referring to, Shawn, when you say:
"... there appears to be an additional ribbon of spun metal tight against the wood rim,
so that both faces of the “resonant chamber“ are lined with metal. ..."
(Unless you are referring to the rim lamination lines, shown in the PATENT drawing...)
If you want see the original patent drawing:
Best-
Ed Britt
E.Britt ©2011
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/20/2011 13:09:07
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 13:34:19
Forgot to add an 'attachment' of the edited patent drawing.
Once these topics get 'archived', any DIRECT embedded link to an image is broken. So any
future readers won't have clue what we're discussing. They just see a 'missing image' icon...
It's apparently easier for BHO's coding to handle postage-stamp sized attachments. So... when
you click on the attachment image -- it then enlarges to cover the very text that you need to read --
to understand the image you're looking at!
Best-
Ed Britt
blm10jn - Posted - 11/20/2011: 15:46:25
Ed,
Thanks for the clarification in regard to 6866. I have a number of banjos, 5 string and 4. I assure you that I would not do anything to hurt the integrity of 6866. I am also good friends with Stan Werbin and Bill Halsey.
J. Bloom
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/20/2011: 16:10:48
Ed,
Thanks again - I´m little by little getting a somewhat overview.
BTW - I think, that maybe this - a B&D Super A1 Special plectrum - SN 9120 - upgraded and restamped most likely by Dale Small to a "No. 7" - will be of interest to you - especially the stampings. I´ve recently rebuilt and set up this fantastic piece.
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/20/2011 16:14:58
SWCooper - Posted - 11/20/2011: 16:14:17
Holy cow, that's a beauty, Polle!
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 16:20:27
Hi J. --
Glad the info was useful. And glad to know 6866 is in good hands.
With friends like those two, you've got some GOOD advisors, who know their way around
instruments! (Sorry if I was preaching a bit... I've just seen too many examples of historic
instruments 'maimed' by good intentions, coupled with a lack of knowledge...)
Had a nice phone chat with Bill a few weeks ago.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/20/2011 16:30:41
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/20/2011: 16:25:37
Sarah,
Still awake?
Yes - Dale Small (if him) was a fantastic luthier and artist - here´re some more pics - after my rebuild (including a raise of the neck/dowel assembly) and set-up - after this she is also now a fantastic performer with a pro-playability:
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
Polle
esmic - Posted - 11/20/2011: 16:28:16
Hi Ed
Attached image is the original SB patent section/elevation with the surface in question tinted pale blue. Could be a veneer on the inside wall of the "resonant chamber", could be more bad draftsmanship, but looks very much like a spun metal ribbon with perforations, in which case, the "resonant chamber" would be defined by metal walls on interior and exterior faces.
I've seen photos of a removed Super spunover and it appears to conform to your Supertone sketch section (ie spunover tone ring only).
I 'm just trying to clarify whether
a) the Silver Bell patent intends there to be an added ribbon of spun metal at the inside face of the "resonant chamber" .
b) If so, whether any were actually made that way.
Best,
S. Mc.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 18:11:13
Hi Shawn --
Ahhh... What you're seeing is a cross-section view through the 'cutting-plane'. (Or 'section-plane'.)
But then it has a view beyond the cutting plane, that is a quasi-perspective/ oblique view -- to show
some details of the rim's inner wall, and the 'faux' grommets spaced along the inner wall of the spun
tone-ring.
Your BLUE area is the vertical inner-wall of a tall WOOD rib, which is lathe-cut into the top of the rim,
-- to create the space for the inner 'resonance chamber'.
One exterior sound hole is shown (split horizontally) at the 'cutting-plane' -- and going through to the
outside of the rim. It is shown in-line with the inner-'faux' grommet.
The NEXT inner grommet (to the left) is exiting (to the outside) along an oblique axis, that is in-line
with the hole in the blue wall. THAT is what you are seeing in that blue area.
In reality... the inner grommets are located at the same height, along the rim, as the outside grommets.
But the inside grommets are spaced in-between each pair of outside grommets. Basically, the same as
the arrangement of grommets on your Supertone, Shawn.
Here's a photo of late-1920's Silver Bell rim components. The rim cuts are very similar to the patent
drawing. But the holes are NOT drilled through to the outside in later models. Note the 'faux' grommets
on the inner lip of the spin tone-ring.
On an early-'20s Silver Bell, the set of exterior sound holes would exit through the tall inner 'rib' that
you see (with the pencil marks at the neck).
![<a href=]()
hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg" src="http://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/photos/large/83/8334-123441720112011.jpg" />
(Photo by John Balch)
Hope that helps... more than it confuses you...
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/20/2011 18:19:06
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 19:25:44
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Ed,
Thanks again - I´m little by little getting a somewhat overview.
BTW - I think, that maybe this - a B&D Super A1 Special plectrum - SN 9120 - upgraded and restamped most likely by Dale Small to a "No. 7" - will be of interest to you - especially the stampings. I´ve recently rebuilt and set up this fantastic piece.
Polle
Hi Polle --
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. Had to finish answering J., and Shawn...
Yes, it's a pretty amazing upgrade. I've seen a couple of YOUR photos of it before...
You can tell it was a Bacon SUPER Blue Ribbon, or or a B&D Super Banjo rim --
because the back of rim is rounded, to fit under the spun-metal rim-cap.
AND...
I've also seen what it looked like originally:
(Photos by Intermountain Guitar & Banjo)
#9120 B&D Super Banjo Style A-1 Plectrum --
For sale at Intermountain Guitar & Banjo, back in June of 2002.
I wonder where the original rim-cap and resonator are...
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/20/2011 19:38:39
esmic - Posted - 11/20/2011: 19:48:09
Hi Ed
Thanks for the very detailed explanation regarding the SB patent drawing, ( however a simple "bad drafting" would have done the trick, given my years of reading/preparing construction drawings).
Do I correctly infer from your wealth of information above that the rim of my little BR Supertone tenor, 8040 is perhaps the earliest known prototype of the Silver Bell rim?
Best,
S.Mc.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/20/2011: 21:29:57
quote:
Originally posted by esmic
... Do I correctly infer from your wealth of information above that the rim of my little BR Supertone tenor, 8040 is perhaps the earliest known prototype of the Silver Bell rim?
Hi Shawn --
It's the earliest *I've seen* -- so far...
But Polle has a bunch of "Supers" on HIS database -- going back to #5816 (!!)
That seems a bit odd to me... since 1/2-spun #6620 is sitting here, right next to me. And in
comparison to the FULL-spun Supertones -- it's from the Jurassic Period!
There are certainly a lot of 'marriages' of mis-matched Bacon necks and rims, out there.
There were NO serial numbers stamped on Groton-made rims, before approximately #7000.
(Only the dowels were stamped with the SN.) So, having a #58xx FF or Orchestra tenor neck
on a on a pre-#7000 'Orchestra-Blue Ribbon' 1/2-spun rim, would skew the data in the wrong
direction.
I think a lot of people call the 'vented' rims "Supers" even if the rim only has the 1/2-spun tone-ring.
(Which is a "Blue Ribbon" tone-ring -- and NOT a FULL-spun "Super" tone-ring.) There seems to
be some confusion over that, since you CAN'T tell which is which, without looking INSIDE the
rim. (And it can be difficult to tell, from just a few exterior photos...)
IF the rim has holes through the tone-ring skirt -- It IS a "Blue Ribbon". (But it still might be an
early "Orchestra-Blue Ribbon" -- or it might even be a late B&D Blue Bell!)
IF it has the FULL-spun tone-ring -- It's a "Supertone" or "Super" Blue Ribbon. But I've NEVER
seen a "Supertone" or "Super" Blue Ribbon WITHOUT a "Blue Ribbon" peghead overlay. (Except
on a B&D Super Banjo or B&D Silver Bell!)
o The earliest BR peghead Drew Freck has seen is #6751 -- A-1 with 1/2-spun tone-ring,
holly with carved-heel.
o The earliest BR peghead that I've seen is #6776 -- A-1 with 1/2-spun tone-ring, holly with
carved-heel.
.
Polle --
Are all (or most) of the pre-#8000 "Supers" on your list VERIFIED as having a FULL-spun tone-ring?
Or, do some of them have 1/2-spun tone-rings? Any comments or observations about the early
Supers?
Best--
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/20/2011 21:30:40
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/21/2011: 01:50:05
Ed,
I´ll go through my records today and revise the database accordingly. There are clearly some mistakes. Most likely caused by the word processor used - in combination with Bacon´s different uses of the name/term "Super".
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 11/21/2011 01:50:31
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/21/2011: 05:07:24
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
... I´ll go through my records today and revise the database accordingly. There are clearly some mistakes. Most likely caused by the word processor used - in combination with Bacon´s different uses of the name/term "Super"....
Hi Polle --
As we've discussed before, you know much more about the Bacon banjos at the high-point of
The Jazz Age, than I do. And I've dug into finding out information about the development of the
lesser-known Bacons from 1920 to 1925. So we each have our areas of expertise.
Until this discussion, I haven't had much of a chance to do an organized overview of the initial three
B&D models -- the Blue Bell, Super Banjo, and early Silver Bell -- which are the primary focus of my
Bacon Transition study.
In discussing those primary B&D banjos, it's necessary to give some background on the 'Family
Tree" of the preceding Bacon banjos, from which the B&D banjos evolved:
o The 1/2-spun "Orchestra-Blue Ribbon", and "Blue Ribbon"
o The FULL-spun "Supertone Blue Ribbon", and "Super Blue Ribbon."
So there is a LOT of 'new' information presented here, that few people know about. Hopefully, it
will help you in categorizing your Bacon info from the 1920 --1924 period,
Of course... THEN there are the later versions of the Super Banjo, which we haven't discussed
too much. You might know more about those, because they cross-over into the 'modern' 19-fret
Bacon-made tenors.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/21/2011 05:07:58
