RossR - Posted - 11/05/2011:  07:52:24

First time poster, but I have been lurking for a bit.  

Some background on myself,  I am the guy who says why buy it I can build it.   Love to tinker in my shop and build things.   So with that in mind I got it in my head to build a mountain man banjo like the ones in the foxfire 3 book.  I also read through the very informative post on mountain banjos on this forum.  My plan is to build 2 one is for a friend who is very musically gifted and who will enjoy something like that.  The other is for myself.  While I feel comfortable with my skills to build something like this my musical skills lend more to turning on the radio then playing a banjo.  I do have the romantic notion of sitting on my back porch picking away.  So what the heck i will give it a shot.  

So with the above in mind I have a few questions if anyone can help me out.

1.  The drum hide  I was going to go the full route of getting a ground hog and tanning the hide and so on.  However with limited time it appears that buying a goat hide is both economical and easier.  My question is where should I order it from?   I saw ones on elderly instruments for around $9 dollars plus shipping.  I am using a coffee can that is 6 inches for the metal part inside the wood.  Plan on tacking it to the inside of the wood like the tedra harmon one in the foxfire book.   Thinking if I get a 18 inch hide I could get two out of it.

2.  The pegs and the peg head.  The fox fire book show pegs on the top of the instrument in a rectangular format,  I have also seen though where the top is more of a scroll work event where the pegs go up in  a line on an angle. Any difference or is it  just looks and preference?    Also the pegs themselves...is it smart to buy 5 violin pegs or carve them out?  I plan on using cherry as I have a lot of it I could carve pegs out of that.  Also where to buy pegs seems lots of options and prices out there and I did see one place that said ebony is a bad choice due to moisture retention.   

3.  Strings  from reading it seems that the aquila nylgut classic strings would be a good choice, anythought on this and where to get them also.

Thanks for any help!  Feel free to tell me I am nuts to even attempt this :)

Ross

staronjeff - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:11:22

Ross first off welcome,

mid-east.com has the cheapest hides i have ever seen on the net.

as for the peg head do what you want, it's great to have plans but better to be creative.

violin pegs i think work best unless you plan on building a peg shaver(you might look into buying a reamer though if you don't own one)

and elderly.com is a good place to go for the strings

jeff

Edited by - staronjeff on 11/05/2011 08:12:28

RossR - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:22:46

Jeff,

Thanks for the welcome and the info.  I saw your build and gotta say really nice instrument you made there.   I have several tapered metal reamers that I hope will fit the bill.  No idea what a  peg shaver is?  Figured I could use the wood lathe and get creative but hard to get 5 uniform ones that way. and the head of the peg would vary some since it would be head work.   I like the look of the scroll worked peg heads on the top with the 4 pegs in a line :)

Thanks

Ross

rudy - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:25:36

Hi Ross, a warmest welcome to the forum.  We don't bite, and you're not nuts.

You might want to check out the free downloadable Proffitt-style plan HERE.

The peg head can be mostly any shape that pleases you.  If you're not following a plan you should draw out the profile full-size on paper so you can be certain that there's enough break angle over the nut.  If the break angle isn't sufficient then the strings may not have enough down force to stay in the nut slots.

Wherever you saw the ebony peg info, it's hoo-ey.  Ebony friction pegs have been used as preferential on fine violins for quite a while without any complaints of "moisture retention."  Ebony is very dense and is one of the least likely pegs to be effected by moisture, although it can be a problem with ANY peg in the wrong environment.  It is recommended that factory pegs have a final shaping before use, as any peg will be somewhat out of round after it is machined and then acclimates to background humidity.  For a first build you'll be OK to use off-the-shelf pegs of the ebony or rosewood variety.  You'll still need to ream the holes to match each peg.  If you're the die-hard type you can make your own, but good quality ebony fiddle pegs won't set you back much.  The last time I purchased in quantity they set me back a whole 80 cents each.

If you want to carve your own pegs be sure to pay attention to wood grain direction, both to minimise ovaling of the shaft with humidity change and to make sure you won't crack the finger grip area when using them.  I'd buy 'em...

Aquilla Nylgut classics work fine and sound great.  Use 'em.  Elderly and all the usual suspects carry Nylguts.

I'll leave the skin to someone else with knowledge of such things, as I use commercially available synthetic flanged heads on my mountain banjos.

Most of all, have fun with your build!

staronjeff - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:37:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by RossR

Jeff,

 

Thanks for the welcome and the info.  I saw your build and gotta say really nice instrument you made there.   I have several tapered metal reamers that I hope will fit the bill.  No idea what a  peg shaver is?  Figured I could use the wood lathe and get creative but hard to get 5 uniform ones that way. and the head of the peg would vary some since it would be head work.   I like the look of the scroll worked peg heads on the top with the 4 pegs in a line :)

 

Thanks

 

Ross

---

 here a link on how to make a shaver

instructables.com/id/Cookie-Ti...g-Shaver/

it's really not that hard i made one kinda like this, but mine uses two blocks of wood to hold in the blade.

basically a shaver is just used to cut the taper for the peg to match the taper of the reamed hole.

the reamed hole work to hold the pressure of the strings to keep it in tune,

staronjeff - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:39:38

one more link

banjohangout.org/topic/173153

this a conversation that has ben going on forever, alot of good info here on building mountain banjo's

RossR - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:17:01

Jeff:  Thanks for the links the long running link I read from start to finish before and got me more interested in making one !

Interesting on the shave easy enough to make....but with pegs at 80 cents...hmmm old me would have spent hours making it  but new me thinks for that cheap I will order them too :)

Rudy:  great comments and the orientation of the wood I have been thinking about a lot too in both regards to the neck and the pegs I may end up laminating cherry wood together to make a piece big enough for the neck and to get the angle I need on the peg board and i agree orientation is a big deal!  The have fun part is why I posted to get some help. I tend to overcomplicate projects by trying to make too much (ie make pegs when I can buy them for $5 )  and overthinking how things are done.   Its always a great help to ask folks who have been there and done that makes it easier!!    Rudy i think its your website I stumbled on too the bluestem site...found great info there too..as you guys can tell I have been doing lots of lurking around and reading where I can

Thanks I appreciate the time you all take to respond

Ross

mike gregory - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:46:22

Oh, darn! You got all the good advice before I had a chance to chime in.

Well, have fun, post pics, and share a sound file.

Fathand - Posted - 11/05/2011:  15:05:48

I have bought some of the $9 heads from Elderly, They are very nice and come with good directions. I have replaced my banjo uke head and built a gourd banjo with them and pleased with the sound. They are not pure white they are sort of a mottled white somewhat opaque in places. They are 14", do yourself a favour and buy 2 and don't try to squeeze 2 out of one, it is nice to have extra to hold onto and trim off later. I twisted the trimmings into a tailpiece gut to tie my tailpiece on my gourd banjo.

Violin pegs are cheap, I bought 16 unpolished ones on ebay for $7.00 , email me if you want the seller.  He also sells peg reamers reasonable.

XXXris - Posted - 11/05/2011:  19:40:42

I agree with buying the pegs and the head, rather than trying make them.

Another bit of unsolicited advice, and this may just apply to myself and not just you: if you are going to make 2, then make one after the other, rather than making them side-by-side. The second one will be better!

RossR - Posted - 11/07/2011:  11:58:03

Thanks again guys for the responses.....I plan on doing one then the other and you are right the second is always better then the first and that follows true of most things ya build the more you make the better you get.  Good thoughts on the heads...I was being cheap and thrifty trying to get two out of one but for the cost probably worth just getting two!! 

Mike:  any help is welcomed I am sure there is something to share...I will try to post a pic when i get done.

Ross

richla - Posted - 11/07/2011:  14:09:07

I'd like to get started on the same project myself, but just haven't done it yet!
If this link works, it can get you to a video, as well.

banjohangout.org/topic/215868/#2733295

RossR - Posted - 12/07/2011:  12:56:41

Just an update folks, My first banjo is well under way I am currently fitting the top piece into the head and getting it to fit correctly.   then its some shaping and sanding.  then all I have to do is wet down the goat skin and then tack it into place let that dry and then  add the nut, bridge and strings and bingo we have a mountain banjo!!!!!   I have no idea how to post pics or I would give you a progress pic!!

I did end up buying goat skin(thin) for the head and the violin pegs ebony for 80 cents, also got some rosewood pegs for 60 cents each. came from international violin supply!!  and I have the nylgut classic strings for when I am ready.

Thanks again for the help

Ross  

XXXris - Posted - 12/07/2011:  13:36:00

Great--the place to upload pix here is on your "home page".....

Jonnycake White - Posted - 12/08/2011:  07:50:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by XXXris

Great--the place to upload pix here is on your "home page".....

---

 And then to include them in a post you click on "add attachments" at the bottom of the screen.

RossR - Posted - 12/13/2011:  21:05:52

Ok Getting close now...I have it sanded to where I want it. I added the nut tonight, i left it a little large I will be sanding that down to size tomorrow or the next day! The back of the banjo I drilled with a plug drill so i can add the wood plugs when I am done and sand smooth. I was all set to drill the holes for the violin pegs tonight when I realized something. Which way to drill them? Since the head above the neck leans 15 degrees back do you make the pegs 90 degrees to the head or do you angle them so the pegs are 90 degrees to the neck when they come through???? Also when the string comes up from the bottom and through the nut are they to be straight to the peg? or have a slight angle from the nut to the peg? This would matter where you place the pegs on the head there. Any help would be appreciated I dont want to mess it up at this point!! The Tin can is cut to size I forgot to add it to the pic. I do need to build the tail piece yet trying to decided to use a piece of brass or wood? Do you just put a knot at the end of the nylgut when you put it in the tail piece?? Also how large to you make the tail piece across? one last thing I know I have to wet down the goat skin but for how long....and do I just snug it up best I can and tack it into place and when it dries I assume it tightens up? Over time doesnt the bridge riding on the head cause it to bow or get pushed down. One final question...what finish to use? polyurethane? was thinking of just leaving it natural and coating it with a few coats of danish oil.

Kinda typing as I was thinking sorry for all the questions and thanks for any thoughts, enjoy the pics and be gentle!!

Ross

MountainBanjo - Posted - 12/13/2011:  22:13:26

Don't let my thread die after only 17 pages!

banjohangout.org/topic/173153/17

RossR - Posted - 12/14/2011:  04:10:38

Pic of where I am at.

I didnt forget that post at all great post and learned a lot from it!!

Ross

richla - Posted - 12/14/2011:  07:38:18

Jeeez, Ross, great progress, that looks really nice!

richla - Posted - 12/14/2011:  09:02:35

O.K., silly beginner's woodworking question: How do you cut such perfect holes? I look at that and think "even if I use a jig saw, it's not going to look that nice.."

RossR - Posted - 12/14/2011:  10:44:21

Richla,

First off they are far from perfect but they are ok!! I drew out the circle I wanted on it. Then for the outside I used a jig saw and got it close...then I used a 12 inch disk sander to sand to the line. I used the sander cause I have it. If I didnt you could do it with files or a rasp and sand paper just go slow and get it to the line you drew and it will be fine. The inside holes I did with a router. I made a kinda jig with the router that had a pin for the center so it made a circle. Drilled the hole in the center the size of the pin and bingo routed out the center. No you still could use the jig saw same as the outside and again sand and file to size(just drill a hole to start the jigsaw). Its all a matter of how much setup and what kind of tools you have...but a jig saw and some hand work and you can do it no problem. Just enjoy the project!!!

Ross

richla - Posted - 12/14/2011:  16:20:01

Thanks Ross, great info!

RossR - Posted - 12/15/2011:  11:45:14

ok no response to my latest round of questions gonna give ti a whirl tonight and see what happens. I will keep the progress posted

Ross

Jonnycake White - Posted - 12/15/2011:  14:01:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by RossR

Ok Getting close now...I have it sanded to where I want it. I added the nut tonight, i left it a little large I will be sanding that down to size tomorrow or the next day! The back of the banjo I drilled with a plug drill so i can add the wood plugs when I am done and sand smooth. I was all set to drill the holes for the violin pegs tonight when I realized something. Which way to drill them? Since the head above the neck leans 15 degrees back do you make the pegs 90 degrees to the head or do you angle them so the pegs are 90 degrees to the neck when they come through???? Also when the string comes up from the bottom and through the nut are they to be straight to the peg? or have a slight angle from the nut to the peg? This would matter where you place the pegs on the head there. Any help would be appreciated I dont want to mess it up at this point!! The Tin can is cut to size I forgot to add it to the pic. I do need to build the tail piece yet trying to decided to use a piece of brass or wood? Do you just put a knot at the end of the nylgut when you put it in the tail piece?? Also how large to you make the tail piece across? one last thing I know I have to wet down the goat skin but for how long....and do I just snug it up best I can and tack it into place and when it dries I assume it tightens up? Over time doesnt the bridge riding on the head cause it to bow or get pushed down. One final question...what finish to use? polyurethane? was thinking of just leaving it natural and coating it with a few coats of danish oil.



Kinda typing as I was thinking sorry for all the questions and thanks for any thoughts, enjoy the pics and be gentle!!



Ross

---

 Some answers:

Drill the peg holes at 90 degrees to the peghead, not to the neck.  

The strings can bend towards the pegs (as well as downwards) at the nut.  Place the pegs where you want them, being sure they clear each other as you turn them.  Make the slots in the nut follow the angle of the string as it goes from the front of the nut to the peg.

You'll want to soak your skin until it is nice and flexible - kind of rubbery.  The length varies with the characteristics of the skin.  Some are more porous than others.  Maybe 20 minutes, maybe less.

If you can find Tru-Oil (try a sporting goods store that sells guns), that makes about as easy and nice a finish as you want for a mountain banjo.  Follow the directions on the bottle.  I've used about 7 coats but some like to use more.  Polyurethane is also good - I like to wipe it on with a rag.  You can used the brush-on type but thin it 50% with mineral spirits (paint thinner) to wipe it on - 5-10 coats.  Danish Oil is not quite as durable but you can use it - lots of coats.

I poke my string through the hole in the tailpiece and tie it back around itself, usually with a timber hitch.

There are no rules except whatever works, works.

RossR - Posted - 12/16/2011:  06:06:06

Johnny,

Thanks for the reply! Kinda what i figured on the what works works!! I jumped in last night drilled the pegs and reamed. did it to the peg head!! I have tru oil and have used it before...hmmm may go that way. Also did the head last night soaked about 10 minutes. worked out great! coming out good more pics to come

thanks

R

RossR - Posted - 12/16/2011:  18:01:03

Ok Folks for anyone following along. Here is where i am at as of tonight Goat skin is in. Banjo is put together, pegs done nut in tail piece made but not attached yet, bridge made but will need to scale it to the correct size...how tall is a bridge supposed to be?? Put a coat of danish oil on it tonight will put another on in the morning if dry and then some paste wax to finish. Then I will add the bridge, tailpiece and the strings. Then wrap it up to give away next week at christmas. I am really pleased with my first attempt considering I was just winging this with the firefox book. and of course all of your help. Let me know what you think!! I cant wait to make on for myself now!!!

Ross

aeroweenie - Posted - 12/16/2011:  18:52:24

Looks great, good job!   I predict you'll make more than two banjos...

gmo - Posted - 12/16/2011:  18:55:28

That's as nice a"winging it" job as I've ever seen !! Whoever the "giftee" is gonna be pleased !
George

Slingerland - Posted - 12/16/2011:  19:59:05

Looks very nice! Great job winging it.

If you want to see some authentic Watauga County instruments (from some of the Foxfire 3 guys) check out the photos on my homepage.

P
banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...?id=19066

Edited by - Slingerland on 12/16/2011 20:06:00

RossR - Posted - 12/17/2011:  05:30:07

Thanks for the kind words. Glad I gave this a go for sure! Once I have it all strung up I will post the final pic!

Ross

RossR - Posted - 12/17/2011:  21:06:25

Well its all done. Got the strings added on tonight and the bridge filed the slots and now if only I knew how to play :) I am sure it will put a smile on my buddy face come christmas morning.

Again thanks for all the help!!

blindsniper - Posted - 12/18/2011:  23:50:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by XXXris

I agree with buying the pegs and the head, rather than trying make them.



Another bit of unsolicited advice, and this may just apply to myself and not just you: if you are going to make 2, then make one after the other, rather than making them side-by-side. The second one will be better!

---

 This is good advice.  Much wisdom there

Jonnycake White - Posted - 12/20/2011:  07:14:50

It definitely looks like a mountain banjo. I hope you'll go on and build many more. One of these days I gotta make me one too.

RossR - Posted - 12/21/2011:  06:12:37

Jonnycakewhite,

Starting is the hardest part!! look forward to seeing what you come up with

Ross

RossR - Posted - 02/14/2012:  19:41:44

An update I am closing in on completing my second mountain banjo this one is for me. I am still not happy about my joint between the neck and the pot but practice makes perfect. I changed up the peg head and made this look kinda like a bird the pegs are in a diagonal line on this one rather than two on each side. Using watco danish oil on this one put a coat on tonight. I will post a pic when all done.

Also my friend really loved his surprise christmas gift The best part for me was making him wonder what the heck was in the big box I dropped off two days prior :) He has been happily picking since christmas!!

Again thanks for all the help...now I have to figure out where to start to learn to play mine since I have no idea!!!!

cbcarlisle - Posted - 02/15/2012:  09:03:12

Seems like your friend owes you at least One lesson...

RossR - Posted - 02/15/2012:  12:14:33

Yep that wont be a problem...me finding the time for it will...hence my plan to do some self study!!!

Jonnycake White - Posted - 02/15/2012:  15:34:36

Lots of good resources here for self study. I cheat and mark fret positions on most of my fretless banjos, but even the ones I didn't aren't that much harder to play.

Bisbonian - Posted - 02/15/2012:  19:57:58

Wow, outstanding first effort.  That's a beaut.