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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/216280
Bill Kemp - Posted - 09/22/2011: 12:54:25
Hello Greg:
Perhaps you can answer my question about a 1990 RB-4 that you made. I was wondering if the metal parts on the banjo are Chrome plated or Nickel plated.
I appreciate your efforts in regards to helping everyone on this forum with Gibson Questions.
Thanks in advance
Bill Kemp
lethegoodtimesroll - Posted - 09/22/2011: 14:47:05
All the RB-4 re issues I have seen from the factory are Nickle plated.
beegee - Posted - 09/22/2011: 15:30:05
a re-issue, not an accurate reproduction, kinda like that lame RB-5 they did.
pick it - Posted - 09/22/2011: 17:34:37
quote:
Originally posted by beegee
a re-issue, not an accurate reproduction, kinda like that lame RB-5 they did.
how is it not accurate?
o2playlikeEarl - Posted - 09/22/2011: 18:06:43
I thought they were chrome plated. I know the limited run Retro4's are chrome plated. Seems like Charlie Cushman spec'd out the RB4's while he was at Gibson didn't he?
beegee - Posted - 09/22/2011: 18:47:16
If they aren't chrome-plated, they ain't right. If they are chrome-plated, then they are right.
Bill Kemp - Posted - 09/22/2011: 19:38:50
I would also like to know (if you are out there Mr. Rich) if the RB-4's had the clamshell tailpieces or did you install a presto style one.
I know that some of the pre war #4s were supposed to have the clamshell ones but some of them also came with prestos and were also not chrome plated.
I just wanted to know your thoughts when you were putting them together.
Any help would be appreciated.
Bill Kemp
rexhunt - Posted - 09/23/2011: 02:42:48
The style 4 was a step above the standard Mastertone and thus had a better tailpiece - the clamshell for the chrome/walnut 30's models. My 20's TB-4 came with a Kershner rather than the Presto. Pretty sure the repros came with the Presto. You can never say never with Gibson but probably most pre-war 4s with a Presto were replacements. The clamshell could be a pain sometimes with the spring loaded cover.
Rex
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 09/23/2011: 08:25:26
I've got a Jan 91 RB-4.I had mine chrome plated a few years ago because if it's not chrome its not a 4.Don't know if it sounds any better but I'm happy with it.
Wayne
larry p - Posted - 09/23/2011: 12:39:14
I know that at least some of the re-issue RB-4s were chrome, because I ordered some (most) of the RB-4s for our shop that way. It seems I recall there being four prototype RB-4s (at least for one run) and Sonny Osborne, Dana Cupp, maybe Curtis McPeake, and I each got one. I THINK those were nickel plated: nice banjos, but as some have already observed-I didn't think it was a '4' unless it was chrome plated.
On one occasion, I ordered a chrome plated RB-4, and it came in nickel, so I sent it back-which inspired some of that amazing, zany, unique Greg Rich style mischief: He returned the RB-4 replated in chrome-BLACK CHROME! (Wish I knew where that banjo wound up). The next day a conventionally chrome plated RB-4 arrived.
Somewhere in the world there are 'Greg Rich Era' RB-4s that are engraved and gold plated, chrome plated, black chrome plated, nickel plated, sunburst finished, and inlaid with the 'Hearts and Flowers', 'Flying Eagle', 'Wreath', and the original Lloyd Loar version of the 'Flying Eagle' patterns, and a few with chrome plated prewar 40 hole archtop tone rings that we found in a crate full of old tone rings that came from Kalamazoo.
As for the tailpieces-I'm pretty sure that all of the RB-4s (as well as all the other 'Mastertone' banjos from the 'Greg Rich Era') came with the 'Presto' tail piece-but like the prewar Gibsons, most anything is possible.
lp
Bill Kemp - Posted - 09/23/2011: 13:06:00
Thanks for that info Larry:
I was wondering about something. If you took all of the metal parts off the RB-4 and then sent them away to have them chrome plated, would it decrease the value of the instrument at all since it would not be original to the way it left the factory.
If it does not effect the value, just who would you send the parts to in order to have a very professional job done on it.
Thanks in advance
Bill Kemp
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 09/23/2011: 13:24:12
To me ,not being chrome plated decreases the value of the instrument.Ron Satterfield did mine and it is about as good as as it gets..Like they say in eastern Carolina,'It's the Finest Kind."
Wayne
bcampbe5 - Posted - 09/23/2011: 20:10:58
I have 2, 1990 RB4's. One of them is from the prototype run that Larry speaks of. Both of mine are nickel plated and have a presto tailpiece.. The prototype Dana Cupp got is nickel plated as well. All three are fine sounding banjos... in my opinion of course.
I don't know, I guess I've never given it much thought really about them not being chrome plated. I can't say that it bothers me that it's not a true replica of the pre war 4's.
bcampbe5 - Posted - 09/23/2011: 20:11:13
I have 2, 1990 RB4's. One of them is from the prototype run that Larry speaks of. Both of mine are nickel plated and have a presto tailpiece.. The prototype Dana Cupp got is nickel plated as well. All three are fine sounding banjos... in my opinion of course.
I don't know, I guess I've never given it much thought really about them not being chrome plated. I can't say that it bothers me that it's not a true replica of the pre war 4's.
Randall - Posted - 09/23/2011: 20:19:56
I ask this question a few years back. Greg said they are all nickel. It wasnt cost effective to chrome plate them. They did a retro 4. It was a maple banjo not walnut. It was dressed up like a style 5 and chrome plated. Had hearts and flowers headstock and flying eagle board if I remember correctly. The tone would Make your ears bleed!!
beegee - Posted - 09/24/2011: 10:27:06
If I had a nickel 4 reissue, I'd have it chrome-plated for sure.
larry p - Posted - 09/24/2011: 11:19:21
I remember 'cost effectiveness' being an issue back then, but it wasn't an issue with us: once I saw what the crew at Gibson during those years was capable of-I for one took it as far as possible. The 'clamshell' tailpieces were not available back then, so the re-issue 'Presto' was the next best choice for the RB-4s and Granadas. The 'two band' tuners that Gibson used on many prewar Granadas and Style 4s wasn't available either, so I asked my Dad, who was a pattern maker by trade-to fashion a brass bushing with two bands that would fit over a '5 Star' Planet's housing that came very close to approximating the look of the old 'two band tuners'. (A few years ago I demonstrated this to someone in disbelief who had one of the 9584 series re-issue banjos: this person had owned the banjo since it was new, and having never had occasion to remove the tuners from the banjo always assumed that his banjo was equipped with 'two band' tuners. I took the pearl button off, and with a bit of twisting broke free the brass bushing to reveal the 'Planet' tuner inside. With the pearl button and the specified copper flashed/gold plating they are a pretty convincing replica if I do say so (-:. On several of the chrome plated 'Style 4s' we ordered back then, we used this same tuner with the brass bushings my Dad made.
As for whether having the original nickel replated in chrome-I don't have any experience or insight into how this might effect the value of the instrument, if at all. If you're pleased with the performance of the banjo/banjos-I'd say leave it as it is. (Some folks, like our 'BanjoDr and Steve Huber) who have a knack for disassembling a banjo and putting it back together in such a way that it sounds as good, or better than it did to begin with: I'm not blessed with that 'knack'-if I ever get a banjo sounding to suit me, I leave it alone 'til a string breaks or the head bust or the bridge starts sagging too much).
I wouldn't think having the nickel parts re-plated in chrome would hurt the value of the banjo-especially if it's a 'Style 4', provided this work is done by a professional plating facility. Might even enhance the value..
Plating facilities I can recommend are; 'Huber Banjos', Robin Smith (don't know who actually does Robin's plating for the 'Kel Kroyden, Heartland, and 'The Affordable Series' banjos-but they do a mighty fine job, and Ron Satterfield.
It's been years since I've seen one of the 'Greg Rich Era' RB-4 banjos, but if my memory serves me well I'd think that having one of them professionally chrome plated, replacing the tuners with a set of the new 'Waverly Two Bands', and replacing the 'Presto' with one of the replica 'clamshell' tailpieces to one would result in a 'Style 4' that's about as close to 'Prewar Style 4' specs as one could get.
Another idea to consider may be to order a full set of chrome plated hardware for it: Curtis McPeake offers a mighty fine replica of the old 'pot metal' stretcher bands, I think the 'Kulesh' tone rings are still being manufactured (or you could go with one of the new Huber HR-30s or a Recording King ring), and occasionally a 'Gibson USA' flange comes up for sale. Doing so would be an expensive alternative for sure-but that way you could keep the original parts in original condition, and have a chrome plated, 'tricked out' RB-4 to boot.
lp
Mike Casey - Posted - 09/24/2011: 12:50:24
I have one of the Retro 4's and have seen several others of this particular 20 banjo reissue. These are a cross breed of the two pre war style 4's as regards their decoration and not intended to be a reissue of a specific model. The Retro 4's necks and resonators are walnut. The Retro 4 resonator walnut is nicely figured but not burled. These have two concentric ivoroid circles inlaid in the resonator back. The reissue style 4's resonators used burled walnut and have the wood purfling concentric rings and binding like the pre war OPF style 4's.
The Retro 4 is chrome plated and has the Mastertone inlay on the peghead as per the 1925 Mastertone's. The inlay is hearts and flowers, as seen on some pre war style 4's. The tailpiece is presto though the Gibson website featured the clamshell when it was announced. I called Gibson about this at the time and was told by the person I talked to that their research showed the customers preferred the Presto... which I took to mean that the Presto was cheaper. I thought the Clamshell would have been the better choice. Regardless, this banjos decorative features are nicely done and my particular Retro 4 sounds great. One other thing not often mentioned about the Retro 4 is the neck profile. It has an excellent old style shape with a french cut heel profile that gracefully compliments this banjo. The only other production model having the french cut feature is the Blackjack. Mr. Ed Weber really got a scald on this reissue neck in my opinion. It is one of the easiest quickest playing necks I've ever played. Gibson did a very good job on all their reissue banjos including all the 5's, 6's and the TT's.
And speaking of TT's I recently saw a Gibson style 4 custom that had a walnut TT resonator. That is an interesting combination probably not done in the pre war era. Gibson has always done unusual things that were not catalog description.
Bill Kemp - Posted - 09/24/2011: 14:49:59
Thank you for all of your help on this matter. I was kind of hoping that Greg Rich might chime in here and give his opinion about doing a replate or not. As well as his thoughts on the banjo as well.
I think that I might just send all my parts to a really professional plating guy and have him do everything in Chrome so that it all matches up. I will also order the Waverley 2 band tuners and send them along to have them plated at the same time. I have a new clamshell tailpiece that I can do as well.
Any thoughts on who does the best plating job for banjos. I just want to ensure that it comes out spectacular.
Thanks in advance
Bill Kemp
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 09/24/2011: 17:20:57
I think GRich is out of town right now,keep this going until next week and he might have something to say.
Wayne
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 09/24/2011: 17:24:35
Larry,Thanks for the heads up on the 2-band tuners and the clamshell.I might have to do another upgrade.
Wayne
Ebanjo - Posted - 09/24/2011: 20:59:48
Some of the 30's style -4's had a mixture of nickel and chrome parts. Maybe we can get flatthead (Jim Rollins) to comment on this.
Eric Ellis
Oldtwanger - Posted - 09/25/2011: 03:27:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ebanjo
Some of the 30's style -4's had a mixture of nickel and chrome parts. Maybe we can get flatthead (Jim Rollins) to comment on this.
Eric Ellis
Most, if not all, '30's style -4's shipped with the specified chrome hardware until the model was dropped in 1937.
When we see nickel parts on an otherwise original style -4 they are replacements for failed parts - pot metal tension bands and flanges - when the only available parts were nickel.
The original chrome clamshell tailpiece is often seen removed in favor of an old Presto preferred by the player, usually only seen in nickel.
DIV - Posted - 09/25/2011: 10:25:06
The only accurate RB4 "reissue" I know of is this one: banjohangout.org/classified/16739
Edited by - DIV on 09/25/2011 10:26:15
dobroman - Posted - 09/25/2011: 17:12:28
quote:
Originally posted by rexhunt
The style 4 was a step above the standard Mastertone and thus had a better tailpiece - the clamshell for the chrome/walnut 30's models. My 20's TB-4 came with a Kershner rather than the Presto. Pretty sure the repros came with the Presto. You can never say never with Gibson but probably most pre-war 4s with a Presto were replacements. The clamshell could be a pain sometimes with the spring loaded cover.
Rex
I had the good fortune to play a 34 #4 just last week. It belongs to Robert Cathey, the man that made the Cathey rings, he sold the ring business years ago and they are now the JLS #12. Anyway that banjo is chrome plated and does still have the original clamshell tailpeice. I had not seen one quite like it and Bob took great joy in telling me about the 4's and that tailpiece. Bob had made the neck thats on it so it was not an RB, but it sure sounded good!!
larry p - Posted - 09/26/2011: 08:12:19
Plating facilities I can recommend are; 'Huber Banjos', Robin Smith (don't know who actually does Robin's plating for the 'Kel Kroyden, Heartland, and 'The Affordable Series' banjos-but they do a mighty fine job, and Ron Satterfield.
As Eric Ellis observed, I've seen some of the prewar 'Style 4s' with a mixture of chrome and nickel plated parts, and I think Oldtwanger's explanation for this is 'spot on': Many of the 'pot metal' tension bands and flanges would fail and be replaced by nickel plated parts.
I think if you had the nickel parts on a 'Greg Rich Era' RB-4s (or one of the RB-4s made under the direction of Nick Kimmons, Bob Day, or Charlie Cushman with the excellent Ed Webber shaped necks) re-plated in chrome, and added the 'Waverly Two Band' tuners and one of the 'Prucha' reproduction 'Clamshell' tailpieces you'd come up with a very nice modern Gibson replica of the 'Style 4'.
You're welcome Wayne!! Are you coming down this way for the IBMA Convention this week? If you do I sure hope you'll come out for one of those great visits I appreciate you for..
That's a very nice looking banjo you have there DIV! Your RB-4 replica will make somebody a great banjo no doubt..
Occasionally a prewar one piece flange 'Style 2' comes up for sale that has many of the necessary ingredients for building a nice 'Style 4' replica: some of them have the beautiful burl walnut resonator (a few of them have the 'Style 4' resonator appointments: concentric rings in the back, and 'Granada' style bindings), and chrome plated parts.
Best wishes to you with those banjos Bill! Sure would like to see you and your banjos, and would be interested in seeing what you come up with if you decide to have the modifications made you're considering..
lp
pick it - Posted - 09/26/2011: 09:24:15
quote:
Originally posted by beegee
If I had a nickel 4 reissue, I'd have it chrome-plated for sure.
and I know a polish fellow that won a gold medal in the olympics ...he had it bronzed
DIV - Posted - 09/26/2011: 11:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by larry p
I think if you had the nickel parts on a 'Greg Rich Era' RB-4s (or one of the RB-4s made under the direction of Nick Kimmons, Bob Day, or Charlie Cushman with the excellent Ed Webber shaped necks) re-plated in chrome, and added the 'Waverly Two Band' tuners and one of the 'Prucha' reproduction 'Clamshell' tailpieces you'd come up with a very nice modern Gibson replica of the 'Style 4'.
ABSOLUTELY!!! The only thing "off" would be the resonator veneer. The prewars are "stump" or "crotch" wood and not burl.
But yeah, I was totally thinking of doing all of that, but I had such a great RB4 neck to start with, I just built everything around it from scratch.
DIV - Posted - 09/26/2011: 15:05:16
By the way, when did Gibson start outsourcing their necks to FQMS???
beegee - Posted - 09/26/2011: 15:35:39
quote:
Originally posted by DIV
By the way, when did Gibson start outsourcing their necks to FQMS???
I don't know but it's my understanding that it has been so for several, if not many, years.
grich - Posted - 09/26/2011: 15:48:43
I've had a lot of emails asking me to chime in here and bring things up to date:
When we first decided to build the RB-4, we wanted to do it in chrome. We sent out parts to a bunch of plating vendors, but the chrome we got back was not to the level and type we needed. The chrome was put on way too heavily and the amount of labor it would have taken to re-tap threads, etc., was too prohibitive. At that time, to stock both nickel and chrome parts was something I couldn't justify.
There were still custom orders in all kinds of things, as Larry pointed out. If you really had to have chrome parts, you could have gotten it, if the dealer was willing to pay the upcharge that it required.
The next question I've been asked: is it advantageous to take a 1990's RB-4 and chrome plate it vs leaving it all original? Well, let me ask you, if someone were to appear on the market with a 1930s Granada that had been replated would it affect the value? I say, to the true purest collector looking at it as an investment, leaving things shop-original is always better costwise. Maybe this would be different to a player wanting a chrome--plated 4, but to the collector, leaving the instrument original is always better.
So, if you make modifications but can still put the instrument back to original state before selling it, then no problem. Some people would say "Oh, if it's not chrome plated it's not a 4," but the fact of the matter is Gibson produced it as a 4 with nickel in the 1990s. Therefore it is an official RB-4 with nickel hardware. Gibson had the right to change specifications, and lo and behold you're witness to it! This is the best pro-Gibson text I can give you on this subject.
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 09/26/2011: 18:26:45
So its a 4 without the chrome or is it a 3 with a walnut neck and resonator?
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/26/2011: 21:25:59
[quote]Gibson had the right to change specifications, and lo and behold you're witness to it![/quote]
Wasn't the 4 originally done in silver?
Bill Kemp - Posted - 09/27/2011: 01:29:58
Thanks for chiming in Greg. I wanted to get your take on things. I will be getting the banjo this weekend and will take some pictures of it and post them on the hangout.
I appreciate all the comments on the hangout and will get back to everyone on my plans.
Any way you look at it, I got myself a Gibson RB-4 from the period of time that I was looking for.
Regards
Bill Kemp
rexhunt - Posted - 09/27/2011: 02:47:20
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
[quote]Gibson had the right to change specifications, and lo and behold you're witness to it![/quote]
Wasn't the 4 originally done in silver?
I believe the original trapdoor 4s had silver plated metal parts. The first Mastertone 4s were mahogany - so, Greg is right about Gibson changing the specs.
Rex
ahsn36gp - Posted - 09/27/2011: 05:31:30
To anyone who had a 90's RB4 chrome plated, how did it affect the tone?
Bill Kemp - Posted - 09/27/2011: 10:32:10
I would also be interested in hearing from anyone that has chrome plated their RB-4 and if it made a change in tone (good or bad) and their opinion on if they would do it again if they had the chance to.
Bill
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 09/27/2011: 14:39:44
I think it helped 'but then again' I think of a lot of things.
DIV - Posted - 09/27/2011: 18:17:55
I would think the biggest change in tone from an RB4 with "re-issue specs" to one with "prewar specs" would be due to the tailpiece swap: Presto/Clamshell...but what do I know?
DIV - Posted - 09/27/2011: 18:41:02
One thing I'm curious about.
The typical prewar OPF 4 had plain ivoroid binding, with a couple of exceptions (Snuffy Jenkins RB4, Butch Robbins RB4) that had the black/white/black binding like the 2pf models.
I've noticed that the reissue RB4's have the black/white/black...or do any of them have the plain ivoroid?
bcampbe5 - Posted - 09/28/2011: 09:43:48
Daniel,
I happen to have 2 RB4 reissues....
On the neck, one of them has the bwb binding and the other one has the plain ivoroid binding. They probably just used what they had at the time. I've seen many others with the plain binding as well.
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 09/28/2011: 13:20:56
I think I'm ready to make mine a 3.9 by changing to a clamshell tailpiece.What is the best source for one of these?
Wayne
rexhunt - Posted - 09/28/2011: 13:28:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne Holcombe
I think I'm ready to make mine a 3.9 by changing to a clamshell tailpiece.What is the best source for one of these?
Wayne
Prucha probably makes the best. Greg Boyd sells them and I think FQMS carries them as well.
Rex
ProfessorBanjo - Posted - 09/28/2011: 13:44:23
I had a 1992 a while back. I put on a set of Waverly V2's and a 4-hump to give it a more vintage look.
It was a great banjo, wish I still had it, but you can't keep all of them... so my wife says.
Bill Kemp - Posted - 09/29/2011: 18:09:32
To those of you who have the Rich era RB-4's. Can you advise me what the binding pattern is on the resonator and the neck is. Are they both the same or are they different.
Are they generally all plain white binding or are they the white & black pattern.
Thanks in advance
Bill Kemp
bcampbe5 - Posted - 09/30/2011: 09:09:06
Bill,
one of mine has b/w/b binding on the neck and resonator. My other one has white binding on the neck and b/w/b on the resonator...
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