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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: TOTW 8/26/11 Stoney Point


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/214272

majikgator - Posted - 08/26/2011:  03:14:07



My TOTW is Soney Point a very old reel, AKA Goin' Up Caney, Old Dad, Pappy Looney's, Pig Town, Pigtown, The Pigtown Highland Fling, The Pigtown, The Pilltown, Pigtown Fling, Warm Stuff, Wild Horses At Stoney Point as well as a whole bunch of others, see thesession.org/tunes/display/80. for a list of recordings of the tune based on the name Pigtown Fling. It seems to related to Kelton's Reel as well.



From an earlier discussion of the tune with Tomberghan and Mark Johnson



"Some history on the tune from the "The Fiddler’s Companion"



"Stony Point" appears in early American music manuscripts such as Benjamin Carr’s Evening Amusement, published in Philadelphia Pennsylvania in 1796. The title of this once very-popular dance tune commemorates an embarrassing defeat for the British commander Sir Henry Clinton in 1779 at Fort Stony Point, New York, at the hands the American forces commanded by General "Mad" Anthony Wayne."



If this is true about the commemoration bit i suppose it must have come after Clinton had previously captured the not yet completed fort acting on information he received form Benedict Arnold. i searched (and searched) and couldn't find the reference to Stoney Point in the afore mentioned Benjamin Carr's E.A. from that year but i don't doubt it, it is a very old reel probably of Irish descent.



As far as early recordings of it a similar tune was recorded as Man in the Wood Pile by J.E. Mainer he may have gotten from the Skillet Lickers N in the Wood Pile. Modern recordings include those by Tony Rice unit and with Norman Blake, Art Rosenbaum on Art of the Mtn Banjo and Kate Bret on The Old Time Banjo Festival CD. Another interesting variation is recorded by Frank Lee with the Freight Hoppers called Wild Fling in the Woodpile on the Waiting on the Gravy Train CD. i particularly like BHO's Blanham's recording of the Miles Krassen arrangement - hangoutstorage.com/jukebox.asp...D%3D19181



The tune is also played in bluegrass circles, here's one youtube.com/watch?v=sXHd3z9W7iY and another youtube.com/watch?v=ycowu9NF3xo



Stoney Point is usually played as a 2 or 3 part tune, for the most part the A and C parts of the Krassen arrangement are a constant inclusion with other three part arrangement's having the B part as per Krassen or his A and C parts followed by a sort of first string walk as in the afore mentioned Freight Hoppers recording and here youtube.com/watch?v=cXZty1_QNDQ. The tune seems to always be played in G.



Enough hot air from me, i'm sure others can chime in on this very popular tune. 


majikgator - Posted - 08/26/2011:  04:12:32



The links don't seem to be working let me try again, from top to bottom



A list of recordings of Pigtown Fling



thesession.org/tunes/display/80 



Blanham's Krassen version



banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D19181">banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D19181" target="_blank">hangoutstorage.com/jukebox.asp...D%3D19181 



Bluegrass 1 J.D. Crowe



youtube.com/watch?v=sXHd3z9W7iY 



Bluegrass 2 Ross Nickerson



youtube.com/watch?v=ycowu9NF3xo 



Stoney Point with C part like the Freight Hoppers version by Chance McCoy and The Saddle Horn Stringband 



youtube.com/watch?v=cXZty1_QNDQ 


mojo_monk - Posted - 08/26/2011:  05:34:57



This is one of my absolute favorite tunes! I've always been drawn to it on the fiddle - particularly because it seems to me one of the most widely interpreted pieces going. 2 part, 3 part, crooked, old timey, bluegrassy, whatever you got. My favorite fiddle version is probably from "Fiddlin'" Doc Roberts (aka "Fiddlin Frank Nelson") recorded as "Buck Creek Girl" with Joe Booker on guitar, way back in September of 1927. Straight forward and smokin' hot. He was the man, for sure. For good measure here's another great example from Clark Kessinger.



I know this idn't the Fiddle Hangout, but another fiddle version I find particularly cool is from Hiram Stamper (rec. by Bruce Greene in Knott Co., KY 1980). His version sounds particularly ancient and might reflect an older strain than the polished version played by Doc Roberts.



For my money, it doesn't get any cooler on the banjo than "Banjo" Bill Cornett's version (Knott Co., KY Summer 1961). He called it - like many others - "Buck Creek Girl."



Great tune.



 



-Sean


majikgator - Posted - 08/26/2011:  06:31:08



Banjo Bill Cornett is going to town on that one for sure whhew! Thanks


ramjo - Posted - 08/26/2011:  06:44:57



Great pick of a great tune, majik. I first knew this from the first Blake and Rice album, so I thought of it as a bluegrass standard. When I got further into old time, I was surprised to hear the tune under some of its various names. I remember trying for a long time to figure out where I heard it "originally." One day I was driving within range of a progressive FM station that played someone's version of "Pigtown," the announcer said (but I don't remember the players). The same question came into my mind--what IS that tune? The station faded, and I flipped over to the tape player (!), which happened to have the Blake and Rice tape in. On came "Stoney Point," and I slapped the steering wheel hard. Blake and Rice's version had always been my favorite till I began learning the Krassen version. But I just listened to Mojo's link to Hiram Stamper, and I think I got a new favorite.


Califiddler - Posted - 08/26/2011:  06:54:03


IIRC, on the old vinyl LP Flatt & Scruggs at Carnegie Hall, this was the tune that Paul Warren and Earl Scruggs played just the two of them. The track was called Fiddle & Banjo. When the CD of the full concert came out, the track included both this tune and Leather Britches, which made sense because Lester had introduced the track saying that Earl and Paul were going to play "a couple" of tunes.

Great tune!

Mark Johnson - Posted - 08/26/2011:  07:08:29



One of my favorites, I'm glad it's added to the list of Tunes of the Week...



Certainly there are lots of versions to point out.  Henry Reed is always a good source, here is a recording of his take on it: memory.loc.gov/afc/afcreed/130...33b15.mp3



I can't find a sample online, but Alan Jabbour and friends did a very nice spirited take on Henry's version on the "Henry Reed Reunion" cd: countysales.com/products.php?p...nion'



At the other end of some spectrum is a clawhammer pyrotechnics display from Howie Bursen on his "Cider in the Kitchen" album, titled there as "Wild Horse": amazon.com/Cider-Kitchen-Howar...d_title_0  



Here's a video of a gent playing a nice 4-part (!) clawhammer version.  I really like the B part he has in it, it's not a part I've heard elsewhere:  youtube.com/watch?v=TOvDwbMhoy0



 



 



Edited by - Mark Johnson on 08/26/2011 07:09:16

ZEPP - Posted - 08/26/2011:  07:10:25



argh.  I was typing while Mark was posting.  Anyway...



I first heard this tune when I played occasionally with Howie Bursen in Ithaca in the '70s. He recorded it as Wild Horse on his first album, Cider in the Kitchen.  Theoretically, it can be heard at new.music.yahoo.com/howie-burs...192877970 (though the player on this page doesn't work for me, despite its working on other pages!).  Likewise, a part of it can be heard at allmusic.com/album/cider-in-th...-r2142793



 Howie's playing intimidated me when we met.  I haven't listened to this cut in 5 years or more, and he still completely blows me away!  



Cheers,

ZEPP



Edited by - ZEPP on 08/26/2011 07:11:17

mojo_monk - Posted - 08/26/2011:  07:17:28



quote:


Originally posted by ramjo




But I just listened to Mojo's link to Hiram Stamper, and I think I got a new favorite.






Pretty cool, isn't it!? smiley



 



-Sean


Mark Johnson - Posted - 08/26/2011:  07:19:21



quote:


Originally posted by ZEPP




argh.  I was typing while Mark was posting.  Anyway...



Cheers,

ZEPP






I think Howie's is worth posting twice.  



That whole album is bonkers.  I once asked him what the heck he is doing on Pacific Slope, and he showed me.  I still have no idea what he is doing on Pacific Slope.  


stevel - Posted - 08/26/2011:  08:02:43



i've always liked this tune, but haven't gotten around to learning it yet.



Fellow member LyleK has a nice tab of it in gEADE.



lylewk.home.comcast.net/~lylew...Horse.pdf



There is also a tab in Art of the Mountain Banjo by Art Rosenbaum in the same tuning.



I also like the old recording by Ed Haley.



Edited by - stevel on 08/26/2011 08:03:14

ramjo - Posted - 08/26/2011:  08:12:01



quote:


Originally posted by Mark Johnson




quote:


Originally posted by ZEPP





argh.  I was typing while Mark was posting.  Anyway...



Cheers,

ZEPP






I think Howie's is worth posting twice.  



That whole album is bonkers.  I once asked him what the heck he is doing on Pacific Slope, and he showed me.  I still have no idea what he is doing on Pacific Slope.  






When I met Howie I asked to see his hands to count the number of his fingers. I was sure there were more than ten. But no, it's only talent that makes it seem so.


rinemb - Posted - 08/26/2011:  08:15:28



We tend to play a lot of crooked and 3-part tunes.  While both the fiddle player and I can play this tune, we have yet to include it into a performance.  We like to keep agent369 confused and hoppin with the crooked stuff. lol.  Though, he handles it well.



Brad


ramjo - Posted - 08/26/2011:  08:16:47



quote:


Originally posted by mojo_monk




quote:


Originally posted by ramjo





But I just listened to Mojo's link to Hiram Stamper, and I think I got a new favorite.






Pretty cool, isn't it!? smiley



 



-Sean






I just love listening to that twitchy, bouncy, scratchy sound of his. I like also in some of the Barea recordings you can hear him spit into a can before he talks. cool There's a great Field Recorder's Collective DVD of Hiram Stamper playing on his front porch, his bowing elbow continually running into the potted geraniums. Unfortunately it's out of print.



Sorry to put this digression in here.


stevel - Posted - 08/26/2011:  08:19:45


i've never even heard of Howard Bursen... but i just sampled that CD... wowsa!!!

ZEPP - Posted - 08/26/2011:  08:57:49



quote:


Originally posted by stevel




i've never even heard of Howard Bursen... but i just sampled that CD... wowsa!!!

 






When I first met Howie, I quickly decided not to admit to my clawhammer efforts, and only played guitar and bluegrass banjo in his presence.  After a few years of running into each other at parties and such, there was one night when I had had enough to drink that I had enough nerve to play clawhammer with him.  After a rousing rendition of Green Willis (in which he totally smoked me), he turned to me and said "Wow, Zepp, I didn't know you played that s***.



He remains my single most influential banjo player!  Definitely worth a listen, even if you don't like triplets. smiley



Cheers,

ZEPP


kevinwholmes - Posted - 08/26/2011:  09:03:49



My version, 2-finger index lead.  Bart Reiter Standard banjo with nylon strings & hide head.



Edited by - kevinwholmes on 08/26/2011 09:07:03

ramjo - Posted - 08/26/2011:  09:12:48



Yeah, Kevin!


majikgator - Posted - 08/26/2011:  09:36:11



Kevin i was wondering about a two finger version, very cool and nice sound out of that banjo.


RG - Posted - 08/26/2011:  11:28:16



Great pick gator and some cool versions posted...been playing this one ever since I heard it on the Art Rosenbaum Kicking Mule record about 36 years ago and still one of my favorites...and yes mojomonk, Hiram Stamper's version is my favorite, listen to his fiddling a lot, wish more contemporary fiddlers would too but that's another subject...


Dock Jekel - Posted - 08/26/2011:  16:55:15


I was interested to find out that this tune also goes by the name of Wild Horses. I have been studying Posey Rorers fiddle version of Wild Horses from the Charlie Poole collection. Interesting how you sometimes learn two or three tunes... just by learning one!

Mtngoat - Posted - 08/26/2011:  18:16:26


My absolute all-time favorite version is by Kentuckians Bill Stepp and Walter Williams.

blanham - Posted - 08/27/2011:  04:40:47



majikgator: Excellent choice, and very informative!  Thank's for the mention of my rendering of Krassen's tab.



Kevin: Beautiful playing and sound.  That Reiter sounds really classy with nylons and skin head.



I never really made the connection before, that Stoney Point and Buck Creek Girls are siblings .... duh. enlightened


Don Borchelt - Posted - 08/27/2011:  05:50:35



Nice choice for TOTW, an old favorite of mine, too.  Kevin, a good job of picking! 



I've uploaded a practice recording I made back in the early-80s, a medley of Stoney Point and Cumberland Gap.  I'm playing both the three-finger lead and the frailing style back-up. This was my first experiment with three-finger/clawhammer duet playing, even before I got together with Ed Britt. 



- Don Borchelt



 




Stoney Point/Cumberland Gap

   

Tamarack - Posted - 08/27/2011:  06:38:15



A wonderful tune with a million variations.  It first came into my head from the dulcimer playing of Leo Kretzner & Co.  who did a very listenable album titled Pigtown Fling.  Leo does a four-part version called Wild Pigs Flinging Pointed Stones.


majikgator - Posted - 08/27/2011:  08:41:51



So much input here.



Bob yeah apparently some people think of Buck Creek Girrs and Stoney Point as being the same tune and some like Art Rosenbaum draw a distinction.



Don beautifully played like everything i've ever heard from you and i like adding Cumberland Gap into the mix, i like Krassen prefer to play it in "Cumberland Gap" tuning, that is gEADE although i capo and really enjoy cranking the fifth string down and leaving off the capo and playing in F, dunno just like it.



Tamarack, like Leo Kretzner  and the Freight Hoppers it's a fun tune to invent names for as it has been called so many names, i got some interesting visuals of stoned pigs riding wild horses around in a circle and flinging sticks into a pile, stuff like that.



Yes it is wide open for different interpretations. For one thing nobody can decide on whether it's a 1,2,3,or 4 part tune, also it's very simple chord structure and that big bold and beautiful relative minor. Although Frank Lee doesn't use that driving E minor he instead does the E minor with a little spider walky/Chinese puzzley which is fun to play and has a nice melodic sound but i am having a problem playing it even fast enough let alone at his speed.



i was working on a version stealing Krassen's 1st and 3rd parts and sandwiching Frank Lee's E minor part in between so the E minor part would build from the melodic to the driving creating a little tension and then get this big release with the bouncy first part, shame i can't play it, i think it would make for a nice dance.



Edited by - majikgator on 08/27/2011 08:44:24

majikgator - Posted - 08/28/2011:  14:38:15



From Mojo Monk



". My favorite fiddle version is probably from "Fiddlin'" Doc Roberts (aka "Fiddlin Frank Nelson") recorded as "Buck Creek Girl" with Joe Booker on guitar, way back in September of 1927. "



A very curious guitar there by Joe Booker, i like it.


blanham - Posted - 08/28/2011:  14:53:47



quote:


Originally posted by Mtngoat




My absolute all-time favorite version is by Kentuckians Bill Stepp and Walter Williams.






... which is found on the out-of-print "Library of Congress Banjo Collection".



downhomeradioshow.com/2008/11/...llection/


Bisbonian - Posted - 08/28/2011:  19:38:29



I think my first introduction to this tune is from Harry Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music, as Wake Up Jacob, by Prince Albert Hunt.  Since then, my collection has grown to include Buck Creek Girls, by the NLCR, Hop Skip Squirrel, by Gene Goforth, Old Dad by DaCosta Woltz's Southern Broadcasters, (and also versions by Rafe Stefanini and Melvin Wine), Pigtown Fling by Pete Seeger and others, N** in the Woodpile by the Skillet Lickers, four Stoney Points, eight Wild Horses, and our very own Clawdan's clever amalgamation Wild Horses at Stoney Point, from Barenaked Banjos.  



 



Great Choice, majik...it's obviously a popular tune with all sorts of room for variation and interpretation, and one I've been meaning to learn for a while.  I think I'll take your suggestion and call it  Stoned Pigs Riding Wild Horses Around in a Circle and Flinging Sticks into a Woodpile.



Edited by - Bisbonian on 08/28/2011 19:47:30

Bisbonian - Posted - 08/29/2011:  11:59:31



Make that "Pointed Sticks...."


majikgator - Posted - 08/29/2011:  12:50:07



Bisbonian, with a title that long you might have to come up with a fifth part. Which NLCR record is Buck Creek Girls on i wonder or are you going to make me dig?



Edited by - majikgator on 08/29/2011 12:51:47

majikgator - Posted - 08/29/2011:  12:53:45



Never mind youtube.com/watch?v=uoh8XeYzIAM 


Bisbonian - Posted - 08/29/2011:  15:24:12



Sorry to make you search...I got it from "There Ain't No Way Out". 



I play a few five part songs.  Not on purpose.



Edited by - Bisbonian on 08/29/2011 15:25:26

majikgator - Posted - 09/01/2011:  10:53:04



Thanks for the input you all made me feel a little less awkward on my first TOTW,


Mark Johnson - Posted - 09/01/2011:  10:56:46



I had forgotten you were the one with reservations about doing a TOTW in the "crunching the numbers" thread J-Walk did, Majikgator!



It was a great TOTW: terrific choice of tune, nice write up with lots of fun and unique sources, plenty of discussion.  I vote you sign back up for another...



-Mark


madkelt2004 - Posted - 09/02/2011:  06:33:11



Good choice, Jim! Of course, you realize that we are going to have to mess around with the tune this weekend?


ramjo - Posted - 09/02/2011:  06:45:13



quote:


Originally posted by Mark Johnson




I had forgotten you were the one with reservations about doing a TOTW in the "crunching the numbers" thread J-Walk did, Majikgator!



It was a great TOTW: terrific choice of tune, nice write up with lots of fun and unique sources, plenty of discussion.  I vote you sign back up for another...



-Mark






Second.


majikgator - Posted - 09/02/2011:  15:12:09



Ok Preston you're on


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