BarefootSoul83 - Posted - 08/12/2011:  21:18:11

ok, so I've been hammering out the banjo basics for the past two years or so....

The main thing that got me into the banjo was seeing Bela Fleck play live many many times over the years....

I'm really trying to tailor my playing to his style....there really is nothing else like it.

I need help!!  Theres a great guy on youtube named Colin (aka: flecktonesrock) that really has it down pat...

yet when I go to learn....for instance "Big Country" it doesn't sound the same...its hard to even explain.

It almost sounds more like a guitar than a banjo when I play it.  Most of the notes and fills are there, but the overall tone and "full sound" is not....

What are good techniques to practice to help with this?

 

TheBanjoDoctor - Posted - 08/12/2011:  22:31:47

alot of it is experience. playing out with many different ppl and such things. i find learning many different styles will help learning a certain style. while learing different style of playing you find that many of the things from different styles of playing will be part of a certain licks that are in belas playing.

For instance i noticed that in his playing he does some very complex scale work. not sure what scales. that and i can tell there is much classical, and a hint of irish. but thats not even the half of it. his playing styles are so vast its hard to really pint point any certain thing that he does. cause like i said he's just got it all.

But back to my original point. experience! look at bela hes played with everyone! from folk to bluegrass to jazz to indie and many many many more. thats my input on it. nothing comes easy in the world of music. although flustering at times never give up. cause if you want to learn it badly enough over time and many anger nights cussing out your finger cause they dont do what you tell them lol it'll happen.

One more thing that i find helps me learn complex things. listen to the peice you want to learn until you literally cant stand to here it any more and you can hear it in you sleep. i find its easier to learn that way.

tbfnyc - Posted - 08/13/2011:  00:50:29

Bela Fleck has mastered "standard bluegrass" or Scruggs-style banjo, melodic style banjo, and single-string techniques. He can play scales easily due to years of hard practice. He knows his music theory and how chords are constructed so he is able to construct unusual chords. He has listened to and assimilated many different kinds of music other than bluegrass like jazz, blues, rock, alternative country, classical, etc.

If you can do all that then you are ready to play like him. If not, then you need to work on those things.

Edited by - tbfnyc on 08/13/2011 01:03:17

earlsway - Posted - 08/13/2011:  02:56:04

good luck with that....

brunomathilda - Posted - 08/13/2011:  03:47:50

30 plus years of practice versus 2 years,be patient

Scrat - Posted - 08/13/2011:  04:00:02

BarefootSoul33,

Go here.  patcloud.com/ 

His books Straight Ahead Jazz   and   The Key to the 5 String Banjo should get you well on the way to the fluidity in playing that you seek.

These techniques are what you would need master the fretboard, but maybe not sound like Bela.

Hope this gets you closer to your goal.

Pick on,

Paul

steve davis - Posted - 08/13/2011:  04:43:43

Its a lifelong journey...one step at a time.

Jeff 1965 - Posted - 08/13/2011:  05:05:58

You say that your banjo "sounds more like a guitar than a banjo". Your banjo may need a professional setup. Maybe your head is too loose. Maybe make some inexpensive modifications like a new bridge. I have an inexpensive banjo and when I first got it, it didn't sound quite like I wanted it to sound. After I tightened the head, and replaced the bridge and tailpiece, it sounded great.

stanleytone - Posted - 08/13/2011:  06:31:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by brunomathilda

30 plus years of practice versus 2 years,be patient

---

thirty years of practicing 8 hours a day!

myfavefive - Posted - 08/13/2011:  07:07:00

Be sure to read the cover story in Banjo Newsletter this  month on Ryan Cavanaugh where he describes what he did on his path toward learning styles of playing like Bela's.  I think for awhile recently Ryan was also giving lessons over Skype.  He's here on the hangout so give him a shout

BarefootSoul83 - Posted - 08/13/2011:  08:29:08

Awesome! Thank you all for your input!!
I am highly confident that I will get to where I want to be on the banjo.
I have played stringed instruments since I was 7. (violin, guitar, bass)
I completely put down the guitar two years ago to learn the banjo.
Traded my Martin (DC-15E) for a Gold Tone OB-250 with some nice upgrades. (Thanks Blake507!)
I do have a fairly decent intermediate knowledge of overall music theory and an even better understanding of scales. I do tend to taper off my jazz notes for more "classical" notes. which may be a downfall.

I have been using this fine web site as well as Mr. Ben Clark's fine services to help my learning along. (main reason being, I dont way to teach myself the wrong way and have to remove bad habits)... The melodic excercises have been helping tremendously.

I'm feeling I may have to backtrack a bit and really submerse myself in Scruggs style to get those basics concreted into my playing.

I have also noticed that backwards rolls come a LOT more naturally to me than forward rolls (probably because of muscle memory from fingerstyle guitar)...I think that is probably the biggest flaw in my banjo playing. I replace a lot of forward rolls with backward rolls without even thinking....I'm wondering if that could be a key to unlocking my real potential.

but either way, it looks like I'm on the right track. Thank you all for your input and please feel free to give more!! Every little suggestion helps in some way or another. I may post a youtube video to get some feedback as well.... Thank you all!!

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 08/13/2011:  09:47:01

As others have suggested, it's hard to say what Bela's style is - he's done everything from trad bluegrass to you name it. How do YOU define his style? If you are taking lessons that is good. Maybe you should just pick out one of his tunes and go for it. Bela started out with a lot of talent and then practised 8 hours a day for 30 years. That's what it takes.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 08/13/2011:  14:09:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by BarefootSoul83





I'm feeling I may have to backtrack a bit and really submerse myself in Scruggs style to get those basics concreted into my playing.

---

That's a big part of it.  I have read or heard Bela say many, many times over the years that mastering Scruggs-style playing was an integral part of his approach to the banjo, and thus a very important element in his sound.  (IIRC, he moved to Lexington, Kentucky, as a young man specifically to spend a few months listening to and studying bluegrass legend J.D. Crowe's playing.) He will say that he can immediately tell when someone who is playing progressive, jazz-influenced banjo has not put in the time and effort to master Scruggs rolls and timing. 

Of course,  there are many different paths to creating music on the banjo, and obviously not all of them require a firm grounding in Scruggs style.  But if you really do want to sound like Bela, you will need that solid bluegrass foundation. 

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 08/13/2011 14:15:20

tbfnyc - Posted - 08/13/2011:  14:40:08

Bluegrass is Bela Fleck's rock-bottom foundation. Everything he plays stems from that in one way or another. Without a thorough grounding in bluegrass you cannot hope to sound like him or think like him.

It is like all of those rock guitarists who want to play like Hendrix without having a foundation in the blues. He was first and foremost a great blues player just as Bela is first and foremost a great bluegrass player.

BarefootSoul83 - Posted - 08/13/2011:  16:27:12

Dude, tbfnyc - GREAT comparison!! I am a very competant guitar player and completely understand the analogy. I believe I will take it to heart and really put my focus on strengthening my bluegrass roots! Guess you have to crawl before you can sprint!! Look out world!! Here I come!!

minstrelmike - Posted - 08/14/2011:  08:08:01

1. I don't think Bela has a specific style.

2. Years of practice learning technique is not the same as years of experience at making music.

Can you sit down with a songbook and

a. strum a familiar song on the banjo so it sounds like the actual tune you'd sing along with around a campfire?

b. pluck out the melody-only (like a fiddle or sax would play) and have it sound rhythmically correct NOT COMPARED TO A METRONOME but to the feel of someone actually singing the song?

c. can you come up with a reasonably good break for that song you are doing?

If you cannot do this, you aren't ready to learn fancy breaks by professionals and have them sound 'right' in your mind. All you can do is learn to play the break as is without the feel Bela can give it. Many of the folks I hear who can play exquisitely ornate breaks can't even hum the tune they are supposedly 'improvising' upon.

In my mind, improvisation is what you need to learn if you want to really grok (understand) some professional's attitude and approach to music. (I buttress this with two facts: one--the professional didn't copy anybody for his break. Two: if you only know the one single professional break for the song, then you have no awareness of the _choices_ that have to be made in order to express the song. Learning multiple breaks somewhat helps (but actually, the real help comes from doing the song so long that you eventually learn to hear a melody that you can then compare the various breaks to).

mikey5string - Posted - 08/14/2011:  09:32:16

start with scruggs. learn the standard repertoire.

learn fiddle tunes in melodic and single string style.

listen to a lot of music.

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 08/14/2011:  13:07:58

being like Bela...is being absolutely fluent with your fingering...so as to be able to play..."which ever finger gets there first"

have you mastered these rolls ...and practiced your scales endlessly?

Common Rolls

alternate thumb:

TITM    TITM    TITM

TMTI    TMTI    TMTI

TMTI    TITM    TMTI

alternate index:

IMIT     IMIT    IMIT

ITIM     ITIM    ITIM

ITIM     IMIT    ITIM

alternate middle:

MIMT     MIMT    MIMT

MTMI     MTMI    MTMI

MTMI     MIMT    MTMI    MIMT

forward roll:

TIMT     IMTI    MTIM    TIMT

backward or reverse rol:

MITM    ITMI     TMIT    MITM

I like to practice these rolls on each single string (to get the cadence correct)

(til I am able to play them on ALL five strings smoothly and easily)

as:

---T-I-T-M-------T-I-T-M-------T-I-T-M-----------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------

or:

etc.,etc.,etc.

also the Doub Pearce/ Pat Cloud's  eight note roll (forward/reverse):

(smooth and very useful on single string playing)

------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------

---T-I-M-T-----M-I-T-M-----T-I-M-T-----M-I-T-M-------

------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------T-------------------------M----------

-----------------M-------------------------T---------------

-----------I-------- ------------------I---------------------

-----T-------------------------M---------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------

also arpeggio rolls of TITM TITM TITM TITM or TITI TITI TITI TITI  arpa style across the strings

as:

------------------------M------------------------------------I----------

-----------------T-------------------------------------T---------------

-----------I--------------------or---------------I---------------------

-----T--------------------------------------T---------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rolls are the language of the right hand. The left hand frets and sustains the notes and the right hand follows. Why limit yourself to "this finger plays on this string...and this finger plays this string etc.. etc..?

First learning to play I used a technique taught by Bill Keith and Earl in their book "The Five String Banjo".....in order to smooth out his playing Earl practiced playing his rolls

with the first string fretted at five and the second string fretted at eight and the fifth string open....all "G"'s  in order to even out and practice syncopating his beat. I love this exercise. It isolates the beat of your right fingers.

Now move ten years forward to Bela Fleck and "Banjo Picking Styles" and he shows that he is experimenting with playing all three fingers on a single string..."Wind That Shakes

The Barley" is one great song where there is room for this.

But it's the same exercise as Bill's and Earl's just on single string which isolates your beats again....so these days when I'm not learning a new tune or learning new scalier or pentatonic paths on the fret board...I find myself constantly doing this:

1-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

3-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4---T-I-M-T-------M-I-T-M-------T-I-M-T-------- M-I-T-M --------

5-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

all the while listening for new cadences or accenting patterns my fingers may come up with......or

1-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

3-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

5---T-I-M-T-------M-I-T-M-------T-I-M-T-------- M-I-T-M --------

then I start mixing in fretted notes...pentatonic or even chromatic fingerings ....

The beginning of Bach's "Toccata" has a great place to exercise your single string techniques:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----2---3---5---2--------------3---5---2---3------------5---2---3---(3)--------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     T    I    M   T                 M    I    T   M               T     I   M  (T)

or you could start with you middle finger:

     M    I    T   M               T     I   M    T                M    I    T  (M)              

() = sustained or played either one

----2---3---5---2--------------3---5---2---3------------5---2---3---(3)--------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     T    I    M   T                 M    I    T   M               T     I   M  (T)

----5---7---8---5--------------7---8---5---7------------8---5---7---(7)--------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     T    I    M   T                 M    I    T   M               T     I   M  (T)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---14--15--17--14----------15--17--14--15----------17--14--15--(15)-----------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     T    I    M    T               M    I    T   M                T     I    M   (T)

---14--15--17--14----------15--17--14--15----------17--14--15--(15)-----------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     T    I    M   T                 M    I    T   M               T     I   M  (T)

---17--19--20--17----------19--20--17--19----------20--17--19--(19)-----------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     T    I    M   T                 M    I    T   M               T     I   M  (T)

try playing it,  it sounds way cool...then you can make up your on stuff......

storm

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 08/14/2011:  13:32:27

If you want a cool TablEdit tab of "Big Country" or "Another Morning" or many other Bela Tunes...you can email me through my homepage.

storm

BarefootSoul83 - Posted - 08/14/2011:  19:50:31

@ minsteralmike - I totally agree with you.... I've learned many instruments over the years and consider myself somewhat of a musical snob.... I have a great feel for music theory and timing... I pride myself on being able to play the same song in infinate different arrangements, keys, and time signatures.... being versatile is the only way to be! ...I also agree that Bela's style cant be pinned down...I actually consider him to be in his own genre...the genre of awesomeness!! The best musician alive. The man is a force of nature and I really strive to be like him no matter which instrument I pick up...

@ Tracy - thanks for the finger patterns....I hit copy and paste into a saved file for later learning....I've read that practicing finger patterns is a great tool...a necessity... I will commit all of those to muscle memory for sure!

@ Mikey - great advice...if you have any suggestions for some of you fav melodic fiddle tunes, I wouldnt complain ;)

Banjophobic - Posted - 08/15/2011:  09:11:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by BarefootSoul83

ok, so I've been hammering out the banjo basics for the past two years or so....

The main thing that got me into the banjo was seeing Bela Fleck play live many many times over the years....

I'm really trying to tailor my playing to his style....there really is nothing else like it.

I need help!!  Theres a great guy on youtube named Colin (aka: flecktonesrock) that really has it down pat...

yet when I go to learn....for instance "Big Country" it doesn't sound the same...its hard to even explain.

It almost sounds more like a guitar than a banjo when I play it.  Most of the notes and fills are there, but the overall tone and "full sound" is not....

What are good techniques to practice to help with this?

 

---

Some of the things that makes Bela sound like Bela is his technique and banjo. If you are looking to get his acoustic tone, you'll need his level of expertise and his prewar Flathead. If you like his plugged in sound, you;ll have to explore his use of the crossfire and pick-ups in his 75, along with his effects rig.

While Im sure you have made great progress in two years, you still will not have even mastered the foundation of Scruggs playing, which is where Fleck learned to play, before moving into other realms and styles. Learning other instruments is fine and helps in many ways, but once you undertake a serious study of one instrument, like banjo, the similarities end and its new territory. So, you can learn Bela's songs, his licks but unless you go through the same evolutionary process as he did in learning banjo, your results will be much different. There's simply no way to short-cut the process and do it in less time than he did, unfortunately. My advice is to follow his footsteps, learn the way he did and emulate as much as you can. In the end, no one will sound like Bela but you can learn to get a feel for his stuff and do a good facsimile of his tunes. Its a never ending process and one that will take decades.

steve davis - Posted - 08/15/2011:  09:16:23

Attending a fine music school and taking lessons from Tony Trischka would help,also.

pearcemusic - Posted - 08/15/2011:  10:54:12

so many good ideas here ... but if you want to be just like Bela, it might be a very frustrating road.
He is quite an exceptional musical talent to set as your standard.

Like John (Banjophobic) said ... tho playing Bela's tunes might help, to be like Bela you have to work on what HE worked on ... for 30 years ... :)
and like Steve said, taking from Bela's teacher would be a great start.

For me ... there's already one Bela ... and he's darn good at it !!!
I'll probably get hammered for this, but ... I actually try to NOT sound like other players ... I learn what I can from each player that "catches my ear" ... then try to incorporate that into the way I play. BUT .. that goes for instrumentalists and singers that don't play the banjo .... guitarists, pianists, mandolinists, violinists ... singers ... trying to get what they do into my banjo playing.

Trying to play just like another player has always been frustrating to me, because they ALWAYS do what THEY do so much better than I can ...

and I never wanted to do "banjo karaoke" ... the kind of "look at me I can play like Earl" thing.

Don't get me wrong .. the great banjo players that we all talk about on these forums are my heroes in so many ways ... but I don't wanna be them ... and wouldn't do a very good job at it if I did want to.

steve davis - Posted - 08/15/2011:  14:42:32

I cherish the things that I play that I haven't heard anyone else do.They are part of what identify my playing...part of my musical "soul".

Edited by - steve davis on 08/15/2011 14:43:09

BarefootSoul83 - Posted - 08/15/2011:  14:45:43

I hear that,...I feel I have also found my own personal sound on the banjo... it really makes the banjo very intimate....

privard - Posted - 08/15/2011:  17:12:33

The Bela quote that either hasn't been posted here, or I haven't noticed it, is that he doesn't spend a lot of time listening to other banjo players and replicating their work. He encourages, in workshops, that banjo players listen to piano players, horn players, vocalists, etc. and try to transcribe what you hear onto the banjo.

I'm in the pit band in a production of Oklahoma, and the music director had assigned me all kinds of runs that were originally mapped out for instruments that we don't have in our band, and even with 40 years of playing the banjo, I am learning a ton about the neck and really being challenged regarding my facility with complex chord runs.

steve davis - Posted - 08/15/2011:  18:01:47

I highly recommend jamming with a piano player.I was lucky to play out with a piano bar player for 10 years and learned a lot about playing from the seat of my pants in ways other than bluegrass,sometimes.
A good piano player will lead your ear through the changes and their durations.

BarefootSoul83 - Posted - 08/15/2011:  19:45:43

Privard - very good advice sir! I did that with guitar but was honestly afraid of doing that on banjo....I guess I was afraid of learning the wrong way....

However, I think I will give it more of a shot...there are tons of melodies I would love to hear on a banjo and now I must figure them out...hopefully I can do that in tandem with learning traditional Scruggs and melodic styles.... kind of excited now!! cant wait to get back home to my Gold Tone!!

fatdaddyo6 - Posted - 08/25/2011:  04:26:13

Just play. Go for what your hearing

Turbo - Posted - 08/25/2011:  06:47:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by pearcemusic

so many good ideas here ... but if you want to be just like Bela, it might be a very frustrating road.

He is quite an exceptional musical talent to set as your standard.



Like John (Banjophobic) said ... tho playing Bela's tunes might help, to be like Bela you have to work on what HE worked on ... for 30 years ... :)

and like Steve said, taking from Bela's teacher would be a great start.



For me ... there's already one Bela ... and he's darn good at it !!!

I'll probably get hammered for this, but ... I actually try to NOT sound like other players ... I learn what I can from each player that "catches my ear" ... then try to incorporate that into the way I play. BUT .. that goes for instrumentalists and singers that don't play the banjo .... guitarists, pianists, mandolinists, violinists ... singers ... trying to get what they do into my banjo playing.



Trying to play just like another player has always been frustrating to me, because they ALWAYS do what THEY do so much better than I can ...



and I never wanted to do "banjo karaoke" ... the kind of "look at me I can play like Earl" thing.



Don't get me wrong .. the great banjo players that we all talk about on these forums are my heroes in so many ways ... but I don't wanna be them ... and wouldn't do a very good job at it if I did want to.

---

Amen, well put Doub.  I'm in the same camp.  I'm Turbo, he's Bela.  Don't get me wrong, he's inspired me but in the end he does him perfectly.  I'd fall short.

chuckk - Posted - 08/29/2011:  13:29:44

"Years and years of a whole lot of hard work!" is another way of saying, "I don't know, but I feel compelled to respond."
The youtube guy you mention does really smooth single-string style, and for me that has always defined Bela's music. Yes, he's done everything, but that single-string makes me certain who I'm listening to. I don't have it down yet, and have been working on other things, but being able to play those single-string runs fluidly will open up lots of possibilities for you. You'll find playing in other keys, or changing keys, or playing in no key, much more manageable that way.
As others have mentioned, expensive, well-maintained gear mustn't be underestimated! It sucks that you can't just snap your fingers and have it, but there's a reason it exists- it makes a difference.