dpskala - Posted - 05/28/2011:  06:36:07

I have never owned a new banjo, but I understand that it takes some time for the instrument to “settle in” and reach its optimal sound.  I’m a physicist/engineer, and I am curious about the reason for this.  I would guess that stretching of the head would be the biggest factor, followed by seating of the tone ring on the rim, and possibly the rim/neck connection.  Wood does age and change its properties with time, but when rims and necks are fabricated, the wood is already aged (sometimes quite a bit) to stabilize its moisture content and dimensional stability.  So I can’t see that being a significant factor. Does anyone have any direct knowledge of what is happening here?

I have more than academic interest here though.  I was recently talking to a fellow Hangout member about replating his banjo hardware, and he was hesitant to do this.  His main reason for pause was that by disassembling the instrument, he would be subject to the setting in time after reassembling it.  Any truth to this?

I am considering taking my Stelling Masterpiece (gold plating) apart to clean some things which are pretty hard to clean in place – mainly the outside of the tone ring and rim.  For whatever reason, they seem to be a just a little bit grimy.  They are noticeably less shiny than everything else.  I wouldn’t have to take off the neck, basically remove the flange and tone ring.  If I do this, will I have to wait an inordinate amount of time for the banjo to return to its current sound after I put it back together?  Heck, for me it takes overnight for the sound to come back after just changing strings.

Edited by - dpskala on 05/28/2011 06:40:35

steve davis - Posted - 05/28/2011:  06:45:59

As the banjo is played the parts "marry" over time.That is to say the neck to pot,ring/flange to rim,bridge to head,nut to neck,etc. all vibrate under tension and "crush" the fit.

Evidence of this is found in the depression of the rim under the inside edge of the ring,for instance.

As this crush hardens the compressed areas the tone becomes more than it was in pre-compression...more like a one-piece instrument rather than a collection of parts.

This compression fit over time is the reason many say to never(except for head change) take a banjo apart.

Edited by - steve davis on 05/28/2011 06:48:25

beegee - Posted - 05/28/2011:  07:09:03

To me the whole concept is way over-rated. There is more psychology involved than physics.

dpskala - Posted - 05/28/2011:  08:09:03

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

As the banjo is played the parts "marry" over time.That is to say the neck to pot,ring/flange to rim,bridge to head,nut to neck,etc. all vibrate under tension and "crush" the fit.

Evidence of this is found in the depression of the rim under the inside edge of the ring,for instance.

As this crush hardens the compressed areas the tone becomes more than it was in pre-compression...more like a one-piece instrument rather than a collection of parts.

This compression fit over time is the reason many say to never(except for head change) take a banjo apart.

---

Yeah, that makes sense.  Wood, plastic are viscoelastic materials which will deform slowly over time when you stress them.  Metals are elastoplastic.  If you deform them a little, they recover fully.  Too much, and they take a permanent set.  So excluding metal/metal contact, all connections will tend to become more intimate over time.  Vibration should hasten this.  Most quality banjos are machined to pretty good tolerances though, so the connections should be pretty close from the start.  But if there is a measurable change in sound over time, I would think this is the most likely cause.

It would be interesting to test this (at least to me).  Differences in tone quality are due to the frequency distribution of overtones.  One could measure (or record and measure later) tone quality of various notes over time after reassembling a banjo.

copron - Posted - 05/28/2011:  08:37:41

I am a firm believer that instruments develop their tone over a period of time, the more they are played the faster this happens. Some folks are forever taking their instruments apart to replace some item or another looking for a specific tone, where if they had just left it alone and played it they might have been surprised at what developed after a few years( yes,years). I had to replace a head on my banjo about 18 years ago and while I had it down that far I decided to completely dismantle it for a good cleaning. After putting it back together I was very disappointed in the sound, almost to the point of replacing tone rings and other parts, but I left it all together and after well over a year it seemed to come back alive and I have never taken it apart again and won't. I don't even pretend to understand the physics of sound but in my opinion if it sounds good........leave it alone.

dpskala - Posted - 05/28/2011:  09:44:33

quote:

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Originally posted by beegee

To me the whole concept is way over-rated. There is more psychology involved than physics.

---

I'm sure both are involved - I'm curious about the mix.  Confirmation bias and the placebo effect almost certainly play an effect here.  Those who believe that there is a big effect will usually hear such an effect, whether real or not.

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 05/28/2011:  09:53:53

I believe that the biggest factor is the head. It will stretch for a while until it reaches a point of stability for the desired tension. This seems to take a few weeks on my banjos. Also, the bridge will take a day or two to seat itself into the head. This has a significant affect on the sound and is a reason to play a banjo for a few days between bridge changes, as you search for tone and volume. All the other parts take longer and don't seem to make as much difference individually, if they are well fitted to begin with.

YOMV

Mike

steve davis - Posted - 05/28/2011:  11:08:53

I trust what Jimmy Cox says about all things banjo.When he built up my '29 tb2 to a 5 string/tonering banjo in '99 he said,"It sounds real good now,but it will gain over the next few years.

It has "gained" tone and power in these last few years.Jimmy knows what he's talking about and doesn't deal in "placebo effects".

Pickin furry paws - Posted - 05/28/2011:  11:38:45

Huge truth to this. I have set my banjo up hundreds of times over the past 9 years or so, and I can tell you that even messing around with your existing parts causes a change to which the banjo (as a whole instrument) has to adjust. Refits or upgrades cause even more "problems" you could say. A few years ago, I changed the rim in my banjo. Even though the new rim was superior to the old one, it still took 18 mos for it to "play in" and deliver the mature tone the old one possessed. In other words, there is something that happens in every instrument when everything has been pressed together for a period of time. The parts essentially wear to one another and learn to vibrate not only according to their integral construction, but also in union with the other parts surrounding them.

I can perfectly relate to your desire to clean your banjo! I hate a dirty banjo, and I constantly keep mine as clean as possible (considering the gold plating and all). In relation to play-in time, I would say, if you could set it back EXACTLY where it was previously, to expect it to come back to life in anywhere from 3 - 7 weeks. That is my experience, though, with a Gibson-type banjo. Stellings might vary a great deal in this regard. Something to keep in mind. Also, remember that playing style affects how a banjo ages and matures. Someone who picks hard and regularly like Kenny Ingram or Jim Mills will play-in a refitted banjo quickly due in whole to the aggressiveness of their playing.

A note about the tone ring. From what I know, Geoff plasters those rings on the rims. Those rings are on very tight. So I am not sure the ring will come off. I think it is something Geoff wants structurally with his banjos.

Edited by - Pickin furry paws on 05/28/2011 11:43:45

sunburst - Posted - 05/28/2011:  12:11:42

Your Stelling banjo has a different tonering/rim configuration from a Gibson type banjo. The tonering and rim meet at a 45 degree angle, like a cone bearing (the inspiration for the design), so a lot of the things said here about tone rings and their fit don't apply directly to your situation. Stelling tone rings will usually drop right off of the rim, unless the center bead of the rim is tight in the ring, and then a light tap will free it. In case it hasn't been mentioned, (I haven't read every word of this thread), the neck has to come off in order to remove the tonering because one of the lags holding the neck on goes through a hole in the tonering.

If you take the banjo apart to clean it, there's a chance it will sound a little different for a while, but don't worry, it will "settle in" quickly if everything is in order when it's put back together. Stellings, with the "wedge fit" tonerings, settle in quicker (usually) if there is any settling in to do after they are put together. There is often a noticeably change in the first few minutes of playing a new Stelling banjo, and often a noticeable change right after installing the 5th string spikes. Geoff assumes it is the "vibrations" from hammering the spikes that hastens settling.

Edited by - sunburst on 05/28/2011 12:16:20

John Gribble - Posted - 05/28/2011:  16:58:10

This phenomena isn't true of just banjos. Violins, guitars, including electric and resonator, and wind instruments all "mature" and get better with use. I'm sure part of it is the developing relationship with the player, who learns the sweet spots and how to get a good tone out of a particular instrument (to say nothing about becoming a better player over time!). But an instrument which gets played a lot does change and get better. 

A related topic is how an instrument "goes cold," becomes somehow stiff and unresponsive if not played regularly. I've certainly noticed this!

I don't notice a long "breaking-up" period when I tear down instruments to clean them up or replace a part. Unless I change something major, they usually sound the way I remember them sounding before within a few days of heavy play. 

dpskala - Posted - 05/29/2011:  04:20:44

If I do disassemble my banjo for any reason, I think I will bribe the assistant at my local hardware store and have him put it on the paint shaker overnight!    Seriously, if vibration hastens the settling in, maybe one could hurry things up by exposing the banjo to white noise at an appropriate amplitude, say introduced by a block or a rod in contact with the head.  Or perhaps by putting the banjo in front of a big stereo speaker playing white noise (you probably would want to do this while you were somewhere else).

Here's a related issue.  If I were to disassemble for any reason, would it make sense to replace the head?  I have no idea how old my banjo head is - the banjo is 23 years old, the head looks to be in fine condition, and the banjo sounds fine.  The head obviously stretches over time, but is there any deterioration in its acoustic properties?  Offhand, I would think not, excepting if you had worn it thin under the bridge.

John Gribble - Posted - 05/29/2011:  05:09:15

Putting a new instrument in the closet with a radio turned on or on a stand in front of stereo speakers is a time-honored bit of folk science. I have no idea if it does any good.

I wouldn't change the head unless there was something wrong with it (a tear or separation from the hoop) or I wanted to try something new for a different sound. The conventional wisdom these days is they don't wear out. I do recall some players back in the 1970s who had that idea, but that notion seems to have died out. There are those, too, here on the Hangout, who believe the older Remo heads are better because of the now-EPA-banned white finish. They believe those heads sound better. 

steve davis - Posted - 05/29/2011:  05:24:24

I remember reading of a builder that pressed the ring into the rim under high pressure before assembly.

copron - Posted - 05/29/2011:  09:33:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by dpskala

If I do disassemble my banjo for any reason, I think I will bribe the assistant at my local hardware store and have him put it on the paint shaker overnight!    Seriously, if vibration hastens the settling in, maybe one could hurry things up by exposing the banjo to white noise at an appropriate amplitude, say introduced by a block or a rod in contact with the head.  Or perhaps by putting the banjo in front of a big stereo speaker playing white noise (you probably would want to do this while you were somewhere else).

Here's a related issue.  If I were to disassemble for any reason, would it make sense to replace the head?  I have no idea how old my banjo head is - the banjo is 23 years old, the head looks to be in fine condition, and the banjo sounds fine.  The head obviously stretches over time, but is there any deterioration in its acoustic properties?  Offhand, I would think not, excepting if you had worn it thin under the bridge.

---

Don't know about the others on here but if i have the banjo apart I am going to replace the head. That way I start out fresh when it's reassembled.

pick it - Posted - 05/30/2011:  10:23:18

it is not all physic,the banjo changes for years,some may not be   able to hear those changes,

Edited by - pick it on 05/30/2011 10:25:17

Arthur Hatfield - Posted - 05/30/2011:  12:20:56

Tim I have to agree with you. I believe it will be very few  that does setup work and been involved with banjos for years that thinks a banjo doesn't change in sound after some playing time from what it does the day its put together for the first time. I know a lot of builders and setup people buit dont know any that will tell you they can assemble a new banjo today and it sound as good as it will a year from now if still setup properly. Usually when I very first assemble a new banjo it has a lot of unwanted overtones that some will start leaving in most cases after 3 or 4 days of playing time but not all some get better much quicker than others I don't know why but I didn't study physics.

vintagewells - Posted - 05/31/2011:  14:41:29

I suspect that the difference between pre disassembly and re-assembly is that the parts are not in exactly the same position.  It is almost impossible to get them in EXACTLY the same position .Hence the necessity of a new break in period.

I take mine apart for cleaning about every year or two.. The reason I do it is to prevent corrosion of the metal parts, particularly the  tension hoop. Our banjos   are exposed to all sorts of pollutants because we take them out and play them. Dust, smoke, exhaust fumes and even cooking grease if you play some where that they fry stuff. Like your home. If you doubt me just look at the kitchen ceiling or hood. This accumulates over time and will make a banjo grungy, causing corrosion.

The choice is yours.

Lorna

DIV - Posted - 05/31/2011:  20:01:29

This is a GREAT topic that comes up far too infrequently.  Some of it is in the player...as we play in the banjo, we subconsciously find that subtle sweet spots and make small unnoticeable changes in our playing that make big differences in bringing out great tone.

HOWEVER, I do believe that an instrument (esp. a Banjo) has to be played in.  And yes, I think the vibrations do marry the parts together.  If people would just leave their banjos alone and just play them with the parts they came with, we'd be alot happier, but the various parts makers (FQMS, AMB, JDMS, etc...) wouldn't do as well!  But I guess that's part of the obsession of banjo...TINKERING...it's part of the CURSE!!!

I can't believe the great Athur Hatfield chimed in without talking about his tried and true method of leaving his newly assembled banjos in front of some big, loud stereo speakers to help the break-in period...that's so cool!!

Sometimes I wish I had just one banjo (I'm currently down to 2)...the more you have, the more work it is keeping all of them in prime tone.  They do get "cold" when you don't play them for a while.

And one more thing...Those guys who want/like a clean banjo...I'm jealous...I'm trying to get mine as dirty as possible to make it look old and played in...check back with me in 30 years!

Edited by - DIV on 05/31/2011 20:03:56

desert rose - Posted - 06/01/2011:  03:39:33

As a card carrying string instrument engineer (g), having worked for the big boys in BIG$$$$ projects, its been my job to identify and seperate fact from the placebo effect for the past three decades. When your employer has millions riding on your input, you dont make a mistake, and you better be able to justify your opinions.

Without question banjos settle in and for all the reasons mentioned. All acoustic instruments have performance that matures over time. For many reasons, which are facinating in some cases.

As mentioned however, the fact this happens and the ability to hear it are not related. And as mentioned some will be more dramatic than others in their degree and rate of change.

As an example, Ive been working on woody banjos lately and these change most definately as soon as they are assembled and for a few weeks, just like a normal banjo with a tone ring. We have had new woody banjos at ibma right next to a similar banjo assembled three years before and the difference is dramatic, AND the new banjo matures into the older banjo sound over time

Scott

BDCA - Posted - 06/01/2011:  05:03:49

This may be of interest:

siminoff.net/pages/siminoff_pa...ping.html

Cya!

Bob

TR Dockery - Posted - 06/01/2011:  06:43:17

I was in Rob Smith's shop once and he pointed out to me that Robbie McCoury had just brought his pre-war in for a re-fret.  He was kind of frustrated by Robbie's demand that the neck be kept intact with the rim, as this presents a more difficult task than replacing the frets with the neck removed. 

I have also had necks made for 5 different banjos (and 3 tone rings installed--1 was an archtop to flathead conversion ring) in the past few years and I know for a fact they do settle in over time--always for the better and probably because of what Steve Davis said in his earlier comments. 

Happy trails,

Randy in Germantown, TN