Crimjo - Posted - 05/25/2011:  21:32:56

Much like this post

banjohangout.org/archive/172908

I am a beginner that wants to experiment with a some gypsy sounds. Unlike that post though, I will actually reply as much as possible and update my progress :D Perhaps this can be the go to thread for anyone wanting to play this particular style. Bare with me, I have a few questions I'm wondering if anyone can answer. I play Scruggs style right now but I'm still not familiar with a lot of chords.

Ok. Does anybody know where a beginner should start? I read this post

"ive been playing this style of banjo for a decent while now, and ive found that one really important stepping stone in the process is learning arpeggios. there are some cool diatonic arepeggios that can be used in songs like lady be good such as an am arpeggios over the Gmaj7. More importantly, the diminished arpeggios and scales will serve you well. For example, playing an Ebdim arpeggio over a D7 will give you that gypsy sound (#5 over the 5)."

​But had no idea what he was talking about. Only thing I understood was D7 haha. And then this post...

"Try practicing the Ahava Rabboh mode/scale/thing on your banjo: D, Eb, F#, G, A, Bb, C, d. That is the scale/mode/thing used for many klezmer tunes.



It just happens to be a style of playing I am now experimenting with on banjo. I think it sound way cool. Take that scale, throw in hammer-ons and pull-offs and you get some awesome tonal transitions."

​I'd love to practice it, but have no idea what that means. I know hammer-ons and pull-offs. If anybody has a second, can you toss me into the right direction??

Thanks in advance!

Edited by - Crimjo on 05/25/2011 21:37:11

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 05/25/2011:  21:59:01

Hi Crimjo welcome to the hangout. I think if you spend some time reading the previous threads and exploring the links others suggest that you will find many of your answers.

It was really a great thread at the time and lead to many other topics

banjohangout.org/archive/172908

some other links that were cool were:

this is a cool one on gypsy jazz progressions....many were posted to youtube

I use them as back up to my practicing sometimes they are useful

youtube.com/watch?v=P5u4HmyPOM8

.......now this next one is jazz but check out the II, V, I progression

you get the idea

youtube.com/watch?v=2kotK9FNEYU

doub pearce wrote some basic tab for giant steps after seeing that vid (you can find that here as well)

but spend some time reading and referencing the archived article cause many answers you asked are answered right there.

love to play gypsy jazz and jazz

there are many good jazz and blues threads here as well.

hope this helps

storm

Edited by - stormoveroklahoma on 05/25/2011 22:00:59

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 05/25/2011:  22:04:17

here's a beginning....the whole thread on Tri-tone magic:

banjohangout.org/pages/forum/a...ID=167945

Crimjo - Posted - 05/25/2011:  23:14:23

Thanks Storm! I've been going through a lot of what was in that thread and trying to figure it out. Sadly none of it is clicking so I think maybe I'll have to learn more about chords and scales somehow and go from there. If anyone has more info though keep it coming and I'll keep this updated with my progress! 

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 05/25/2011:  23:34:43

Talk about jumping in at the deep end! I suggest you mosey on down to the shallow end and learn to splash around with basic chords first, simple things like C, G, D, A, E - major, minor and 7th chords. Learn the easiest Django tune, Minor swing: (4 beats per chord) Am, Dm, E7, Am, Dm, Am, E7, Am. Eventually you will learn more complex chords for that tune, but those ones sound fine. Learn to walk first, or you will quickly run into a brick wall...

Crimjo - Posted - 05/25/2011:  23:46:50

Thanks Rob! One thing I'm trying to figure out is, it's been said that a lot of gypsy playing is not strumming but playing each chord one string at a time. Now I assume as a beginner I should just be strumming each of the chords you mentioned, but as some point will I be pickin those chords? That's probably a stupid question and one I'll figure out later but I thought I'd ask haha.

As of right now I can forward/backward roll, alternating thumb roll, and a few others. I'm wondering if I should just practice chords with those rolls instead of strumming. 

Ragaisis - Posted - 05/26/2011:  06:06:33

If you want a crash course in "Minor Swing" and a bit of gypsy jazz look to one of the kings of the tune - David Grisman.

I grabbed his Homespun Tapes mando lessons and then just acted as if the mando was the banjo.  I learned more about chord progression, back up, and arrangement from that one tune being taught by a non-banjo guy than I have in MANY other banjo devoted places.

And at one point in the past, I posted a tab here of the chord backup for that tune as Grisman played it.  Working that out as a trip, too. ;-)

Swing it in 2s and 4s,

Chris

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 05/26/2011:  08:30:46

banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D20701">banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D20701" target="_blank">hangoutstorage.com/jukebox.asp...D%3D20701

I found this in the music files just selecting "jazz" in the search

there must be others

great music file Doub

mikey5string - Posted - 05/29/2011:  09:48:14

youve got to have your chords down pat before you go messing around with this stuff. learn all the moveable maj/min/7ths positions. a bit of chord theory would help once youve got that down so youll know how to make a diminished chord, min 7, 9, 11 etc. its just adding notes to the chords youll aready know.

gypsy players use a lot of 3 note triads (chords) when they are vamping. its important to know the notes on the fretboard and how to make chords with them, youll be changing chords a lot and youll want to know where youre going.

then i would get comfortable playing major scales.

depending on where you are in terms of skill level, you might find my blog useful. i go over knowing the notes on the fretboard, making scales and making chords from those scales...

i am interested in this music myself and am starting lessons with a jazz guitar player to get some of the theory down.

pearcemusic - Posted - 05/30/2011:  09:04:20

hey Tracy .. thanks for linking Molly's version of "Swing 42" ... there's a video of that performance in my homepage "videos" section.

like others have said, the "sounds" that make gypsy jazz sound like gypsy jazz are unique and built on a foundation of particular harmonic and melodic ideas ... and a very brave undertaking for we 5 string banjo players.

an understanding of basic modern harmony is important, I think .... and could help you understand the "sound" of gypsy jazz ...

but ... if you choose not to go down that road ... just learning a few tunes from that genre will get you acclaimated pretty well.

as mentioned ... "minor swing" is a great place to start.

or just play thru some I - vi - ii - V's in major keys ... i.e. C - Am7 - Dm7 - G7

and i  - bVI - ii7-5 - V7-9 ... i.e. Cm - Abmaj7 - Dm7-5 - G7-9(-13)

a lot of gypsy jazz sounds are derived from those 2 harmonic palettes ... play the 1st one ... then play the second one and listen to the different feelings they convey.

David Grisman was mentioned ... one of my favorites ... He did a tune on "Quintet 80" called "Dawgma" ... then slowed it down and called it "Dawgmatism" (if I remember correctly) .... the chord changes in that tune are a GREAT workout for gypsy jazz improv ... both comping and improvising solos.

Paddy - Posted - 05/31/2011:  12:18:30

I'm actually transcribing a lot of Django and Bireli Lagrene for the banjo at the moment and immersing myself in the idiom, it's cool and the banjo sounds great in it. Does wonders for your chops as well.

One thing I do when comping is unplant my thumb and add in my ring finger to comp. When you're trying to get the sound of m6, m7b5 etc type chords you kinda need all four notes. You can see that in the video below.

I was jamming on some swing tunes a while ago when this amazing fiddle player called Ivor Ottley showed us this killer gypsy tune called Savoir Vivre. There's a video of it here.

banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...erID=6774

(admittedly my playing in the bridge is banjo noise as opposed to jazz noise but you get the idea- I'm playing a lot of diminished arpeggios in the A section)

The other videos are cool too-Greg Cahill got in on the action!!

Edited by - Paddy on 05/31/2011 12:19:15

Ragaisis - Posted - 05/31/2011:  12:31:02

Paddy - Yow and zounds!  That's what I'm talking about!  I hate you - in the best of ways. ;-)

More inspiration.

Chris

Paddy - Posted - 05/31/2011:  14:38:53

One exercise I'm working on at the moment is playing chromatic scales on one string.

eg

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

fretting with three or four fingers. You have to shift positions really quick. It does wonders for your facility. And will help when you have to do the big arpeggios that you hear in gypsy jazz all the time.

eg

D                                                                                                         14    18

B                                                                                   12      15

G                                                             10     13  

D    2          6   (shift)   9     12     14  

or, part of a lick for minor swing I'm learning at the moment.

                              E7b9                                                             Am

D                                                                15       18   |   19                                                  |

B                                      12      17                              |                                                          |

G                            13                                                  |                             13  14                   |

D  9      12    14                                                           |                                                        6 |    7

Paddy - Posted - 05/31/2011:  14:59:34

A ii-V-I in G using diminished arpeggios and what not

                         Am7                                                         D7b9                                                       Gmaj7

D                                                                           |                                                  4     6     | 5

B                                5      4                                 |                                           4                  |         7

G                       5                      5                         |                             2     5                         |                  7        4        

D      4      7                                          7         4   |     0       1     4                                       |                                       5

Paddy - Posted - 06/01/2011:  02:38:28

one more post- I had a recording of me playing a Django tune as well that's pretty tasty;

banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D21734">banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D21734" target="_blank">hangoutstorage.com/jukebox.asp...D%3D21734

pearcemusic - Posted - 06/01/2011:  09:31:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paddy

one more post- I had a recording of me playing a Django tune as well that's pretty tasty;

 

banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D21734">banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...ID%3D21734" target="_blank">hangoutstorage.com/jukebox.asp...D%3D21734

---

very cool Paddy ....

pearcemusic - Posted - 06/02/2011:  09:15:09

FWIW ... nice "Dawg" changes from David Grisman's "Dawgmatism" on "Quintet 80"

Edited by - pearcemusic on 06/02/2011 09:18:37

Grisman Changes

jefrs - Posted - 06/05/2011:  04:51:39

Django's first instrument was the violin, then the banjo-guitar, before the guitar. You can hear this in his playing style. So quite a few of Django's tunes should work on banjo...

The characteristic rhythm accompaniment usually 1 2 3 4 , heavy on 2 & 4, hardly ever 1/8 beats

Edited by - jefrs on 06/05/2011 04:56:02

pearcemusic - Posted - 06/20/2011:  21:48:52

tracy (stormoveroklahoma) asked about voicings for some of the chords in "dawgmatism" ... here's some options

chords 4

chords 3

chords 2

chords 1

Paddy - Posted - 06/21/2011:  09:09:38

Doub, do you usually stick to three note voicings when comping jazz tunes? I use all four fingers but the volume out of the ring finger is obviously not as loud.

check this out-

jakeschepps.com/pub/interview-ben-krakauer

Halfway down he takes about voicing jazz chords and getting the ring finger in on the action, but with a pick. I'm considering giving it a go...

pearcemusic - Posted - 06/21/2011:  10:27:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paddy

Doub, do you usually stick to three note voicings when comping jazz tunes? I use all four fingers but the volume out of the ring finger is obviously not as loud.

check this out-

jakeschepps.com/pub/interview-ben-krakauer

 

Halfway down he takes about voicing jazz chords and getting the ring finger in on the action, but with a pick. I'm considering giving it a go...

---

hey Paddy !... sometimes I go without picks and use the ring finger on my right hand ... this works great on a guitar that I have tuned like a 5 string.

I started out playing the banjo with thumb AND 3 finger picks, but switched so I could play scruggsy and get strong tone (that was about 40 years ago).

Greg Liszt uses thumb plus 3 ...

youtube.com/watch?v=_Lyvc-nzUQ0

I like limiting the number of notes in a chord, then playing a different voicing that accentuates different color tones. (or maybe I'm just lazy !!) ... it came from listening to jazz pianists comp close groupings of notes, but moving them around.

the example of a B7b9 that is on page 4 above is focusing on recognizing those diminished 3 note stacks around the root ... all of which define that dom7b9 chord.

BUT ... in the case of the major 7 chords illustrated with the 7th in the "bass" (on the 4th string) ... I always try to play all 4 strings even if I have to drag my thumb or arpeggiate.

pearcemusic - Posted - 06/21/2011:  10:29:12

and ... cool article ... thanks ... I see he mentions Greg

"With your right hand, are you playing with 4-fingers now?

I wear the fourth pick all the time, and am using it more and more. I am not really rolling, but I am chording with all four. And I am trying to get in the habit of working the ring and middle fingers together. I have only been doing it for a couple of months, but I want to get into it more. I met Greg Liszt (4-finger banjo player with the band Crooked Still) about 6 years ago and heard him play all sorts of stuff, but didn’t want to get into it at that point. But after a while when trying to voice jazz chords, that was the turning point. My friend Adam Larrabee who teaches jazz guitar at New England Conservatory of Music has studied banjo for about 4 years, and plays with 4 fingers. He plays jazz on the banjo like no one else. He showed me this arrangement of John Coltrane’s “Giant Steps” on the banjo using 4-note chords and pinches earlier this summer and that was my turning point. Hearing jazz music played very well on the banjo is a real interest of mine."

Paddy - Posted - 06/22/2011:  05:46:04

Yeah I see what you mean Doub, any recommendations on who to listen to for stuff like that?

I was hanging around with a jazz guitarist for the last week and he got me thinking about other interesting ways to play a banjo in a jazz context. He plays a lot of stuff with a thumbpick and his three fingers, so that could be another avenue to try.

What he got me thinking about most though, was playing voicings on the banjo that you can't get on a guitar, by using the fifth string; you're able to get 'cluster' chords; chords with intervals of a half step or a whole step in them rather than thirds. I'm just messing around with it at the moment but I think there's a lot of stuff you can do with it, put the fifth string to good use!

Just some random ones off the top of my head;

           Cm7      Cm6             F7       F9         Bbmaj7     Bbmaj7        Bbmaj9

D        10          10                  15         7             12              8                  10

B         8             8                    13       4               10              6                  10

G        8              8                   14        5               10             7                   10

D

G         8            7                    13        0                8              7                    8

a using four finger obviously-there's a lot of scope for adding in other alterations than as well.

Edited by - Paddy on 06/22/2011 05:51:04

pearcemusic - Posted - 06/22/2011:  09:52:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paddy

Yeah I see what you mean Doub, any recommendations on who to listen to for stuff like that?

 

I was hanging around with a jazz guitarist for the last week and he got me thinking about other interesting ways to play a banjo in a jazz context. He plays a lot of stuff with a thumbpick and his three fingers, so that could be another avenue to try.

What he got me thinking about most though, was playing voicings on the banjo that you can't get on a guitar, by using the fifth string; you're able to get 'cluster' chords; chords with intervals of a half step or a whole step in them rather than thirds. I'm just messing around with it at the moment but I think there's a lot of stuff you can do with it, put the fifth string to good use!

Just some random ones off the top of my head;

           Cm7      Cm6             F7       F9         Bbmaj7     Bbmaj7        Bbmaj9

D        10          10                  15         7             12              8                  10

B         8             8                    13       4               10              6                  10

G        8              8                   14        5               10             7                   10

D

G         8            7                    13        0                8              7                    8

 

 

a using four finger obviously-there's a lot of scope for adding in other alterations than as well.

---

yeah Paddy .. that 5th string allows us to play some VERY close voicings ... I like the ones you posted above ....

as far as listening ... hmmmm .... I think Greg is the only banjo guy I know of that uses 4 RH fingers all of the time ... there are tons of guitar players tho (I'm sure you already know of good ones)

I tend to voice the "jazzy" or extended chords that I play in small groups of notes .... and usually on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings ... pretty much ripping off guitar voicings on those strings (as they are the same open tuned notes).

a simple example would be G7 (straight mixolydian as opposed to "ALT" or G7b9):

I would tend to play some voicing of Fmaj7, G7, Amin7, and Bmin7b5, in 3 note clusters that include the 3rd and 7 of each of those chords ... basically the key of C built around the 5 chord.

smitchinson - Posted - 06/30/2011:  12:58:09

Hi Crimjo,

I just found this thread. I love the gypsy jazz/django sound and play a tune or two but want to understand it better. From the answers above, I suspect that you are still a bit in the dark? (as you say you are new to the banjo).

mikey5string is on the money with regards to what you need to do, but I thought I would elaborate a little:

1. Learn your basic chords in the 3 main shapes, in all positions.
2. From here, learn how to 'make' the minor, 7th, maj7, min7, etc. from each major position.
(practice using these with as many tunes as you can, to become fully familiar.
3. Learn your G major scale in single-string style.
4. Now learn this scale in all of the 'modes' (start-end on 1st, 2nd note etc.) single string style... (research what modes are, if you are not sure).
5. LISTEN TO LOTS OF GYPSY JAZZ. (Like any music, get it in your bones).
6. Practice your new scales/modes in other popular keys.

...this is a life-long process. Do it with a 'long-view'. It takes time. Lots of time. Keep playing your bluegrass and other tunes. It all improves knowledge of the neck, dexterity etc.

By now, many of the previous posts will all start to make sense.

7. Learn the tunes you want to play (after doing 1-6). Do this by ear, by sheet music, or copy the players you like. The more you do this, the better you will become and the broader your reportoire will be.

Finally, find a teacher if you can. A good musician/teacher will make more sense in an hour than months of floundering around on your own. (I know... self taught... still trying to catch up).

Finally: don't give up! Each day builds on the last. Aim to die with you banjo firmly clutched in your hands...

Hope this helps a little. (More than a little drunk when I started this rant).

Cheers.

mikey5string - Posted - 06/30/2011:  18:47:15

thank you paddy & doub!

Im taking jazz lessons now from a guitarist and ive been having trouble with voicings that i like on the banjo. Honestly, i hadnt even thought to use the 5th string! that helps out a lot. Now I can get the root & the 7 without using the low D. nice.

theantdog - Posted - 07/02/2011:  08:58:31

Thanks for the advice here... I just met a gypsy guitar picker and want to get to speed. I'll be back with questions.

Hot pickin', btw, Paddy. Hoo-yeah!

Paddy - Posted - 07/07/2011:  12:17:36

No prob Mikey, I'm getting jazz lessons at the moment as well, let me know how you're getting on dude!

I uploaded a recording off me playing on another gypsy standard called Coquette, you can find it here;

banjohangout.org/myhangout/mus...p?id=6774

pearcemusic - Posted - 07/18/2011:  16:38:08

a friend of mine is getting his jazz guitar lesson blog up and running ....

jazzguitarsociety.com/



a lot of good advanced and "Masters" lessons ....

for me ... it's a way to continue to get my brain into a different "mode" (pun intended) for practice ideas.



Both teachers give many examples that challenge me to get different linear concepts into my playing.

you have to register to logon ...

Edited by - pearcemusic on 07/18/2011 16:54:07