justryin2play - Posted - 05/07/2011:  11:14:30

Just wondering how many "true PW" parts will have to be reexamined with the launch of Joe's book ?

I had to to backtrack and offer restitution for a sale I made in 2010 thinking a component was genuine PW, but alas

it was not.

I had trusted a seller,checked it on an online database to verify it at the time, and it had just enough right about it to

"pass".

Just wondering...

Edited by - justryin2play on 05/07/2011 11:17:32

3fingers - Posted - 05/07/2011:  13:55:52

I think theres going to be lots of revelations when the book gets into peoples hands. There might be a rash of nasty phone calls and fistfights as well due to the tens of thousands 100% original pre war Gibsons that have been traded and sold over the years LOL

Craig

f5loar - Posted - 05/08/2011:  13:15:17

Do you believe Bin Lauden is dead and sleeps with the fishes without seeing the photos?  Do you believe the US Gov. flew those planes into the towers?  Is Oswald the lone shooter to kill JFK? Is Hitler and Elvis still alive?  Do you believe you bought an all original prewar flathead?   This book ain't going to change the non-believers.  It will however put an honest truth to what you thought you had.  There will continue to be sales of prewar banjos that never passed by Kalamazoo. 

I think it's great.  This book is long overdue. 

dhergert - Posted - 05/08/2011:  23:06:06

I really like Joe's book, especially the data about individuals at Gibson...  What a wonderful collection of Gibson research this is.

I would have loved to see more support documentation for the early (1925 to 1931, 8000-9999) Mastertone FON/Model/Date listings -- but maybe there is no such support documentation anymore, who knows...

When I was assisting with Tom Biggs in collecting info on the Ballbearing banjos, it just seemed more likely from the banjos that I saw that those early FONs in 1925 extended closer to 8500.  Of course in those days we were thinking of them as serial numbers -- looking at it with that serial number philosophy of those times, in the 1925-1926 Ballbearing Mastertone period Gibson's numbering did seem to support a more sequential approach to dating.

Best,

-- Don Hergert

Sweet Tidings Gospel Jam

sweettidingsgospeljam.com



"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:

only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."

-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896

Edited by - dhergert on 05/08/2011 23:12:28

TwoTrax - Posted - 05/11/2011:  13:01:36

Don't believe everything you read.  Publishing's sole purpose is to make money.

snakeherd - Posted - 05/11/2011:  13:26:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by TwoTrax

Don't believe everything you read.  Publishing's sole purpose is to make money.

---

Publishing a book about banjos (of all subjects) doesn't strike me as an attempt to get rich.

bobbybanjo - Posted - 05/11/2011:  14:31:13

Joe Spann obviously put a lot of effort into that book and until now, the detailed serial number information was not shared by the people who had access to it.  I am delighted to have access to this information and I am sure that Joe's book will be quite useful to most owners or prospective purchasers of prewar Gibsons.

TwoTrax - Posted - 05/11/2011:  17:07:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by snakeherd

quote:

---

Originally posted by TwoTrax

Don't believe everything you read.  Publishing's sole purpose is to make money.

---

Publishing a book about banjos (of all subjects) doesn't strike me as an attempt to get rich.

---

You're deluded if you think the author is the one getting rich.  Go back and read what I wrote.  I said "Publishing" not author.

justryin2play - Posted - 05/11/2011:  18:16:21

I don't see how "who is getting rich" is relevant to the topic of this thread.

I started this for discussion into things made public in Joe's book that have had impact on banjo related transactions.

I had a personal experience with some info revealed in the book, and had hoped others would relate/comment.

Who's the richest should be discussed in the off topics in a new thread.

Gymbal31 - Posted - 05/11/2011:  19:20:29

I was surprised by these revelations:

(Spoilers)

Lloyd Loar appeared both as Brutus in the 1925 production of "Ceasar and Cleopatra" and as a chrous girl in "George White's Scandals of 1925"

Earl Scruggs considered trading his Granada for a 1950 Henry J. from Kaiser Motorcar Company so he could race in the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Snuffy Jenkins real name:  Marion Morrison.

The original Gibson Bowties weren't inlays.  They were real bow ties pinned to the neck.

Bill Monroe actually won his 1923 Gibson Mandolin from Lando Calrissian in the Cloud City Sabacc Tournament.

So many amazing revelations in the book.  I highly recommend it!

Slingerland - Posted - 05/11/2011:  19:42:02

I think it is important to remember that although it appears that Joe Spann has written a useful book, it should not be considered gospel truth for these topics. I think Mr. Spann would agree. 

I also think it is important to remember that Mr. Spann got paid to create this work (and rightfully so). It is not some altruistic act of generosity. 

Edited by - Slingerland on 05/11/2011 19:42:41

dmiller - Posted - 05/11/2011:  19:44:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gymbal31

I was surprised by these revelations:

 

(Spoilers)

 

Lloyd Loar appeared both as Brutus in the 1925 production of "Ceasar and Cleopatra" and as a chrous girl in "George White's Scandals of 1925"

 

Earl Scruggs considered trading his Granada for a 1950 Henry J. from Kaiser Motorcar Company so he could race in the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

 

Snuffy Jenkins real name:  Marion Morrison.

 

The original Gibson Bowties weren't inlays.  They were real bow ties pinned to the neck.

 

Bill Monroe actually won his 1923 Gibson Mandolin from Lando Calrissian in the Cloud City Sabacc Tournament.

 

So many amazing revelations in the book.  I highly recommend it!

---

Now THAT was funny!!!

Edited by - dmiller on 05/11/2011 19:46:03

TwoTrax - Posted - 05/11/2011:  20:13:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by justryin2play

I don't see how "who is getting rich" is relevant to the topic of this thread.

I started this for discussion into things made public in Joe's book that have had impact on banjo related transactions.

I had a personal experience with some info revealed in the book, and had hoped others would relate/comment.

Who's the richest should be discussed in the off topics in a new thread.

---

I was holding back, trying to be nice.  I have issues with some of the info in the book but will not air it here.

Joe Spann - Posted - 05/12/2011:  04:51:01

Informed debate promoted by difference of opinion is an important basis of scholarly advances.  The opinions and conclusions presented in my book are mine and mine alone.  I affirmed this point in the introduction to the book.  It is my fervent hope that future scholars will correct and augment my work.

I certainly did not write "Spann's Guide" for the financial rewards. Anyone who thinks I am getting rich from writing a book about such an esoteric subject should try it for themselves.  I was able to purchase a few copies of the book for re-sale purposes, and to give as gifts to those persons who were of the most assistance in creating it.  By my reckoning I have currently lost $350 in this endeavor, mostly due to shipping charges.

It is unfortunate that what could be a lively and educational conversation so often becomes a personal attack. 

Joe

bobbybanjo - Posted - 05/12/2011:  05:43:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Spann

Informed debate promoted by difference of opinion is an important basis of scholarly advances.  The opinions and conclusions presented in my book are mine and mine alone.  I affirmed this point in the introduction to the book.  It is my fervent hope that future scholars will correct and augment my work.

I certainly did not write "Spann's Guide" for the financial rewards. Anyone who thinks I am getting rich from writing a book about such an esoteric subject should try it for themselves.  I was able to purchase a few copies of the book for re-sale purposes, and to give as gifts to those persons who were of the most assistance in creating it.  By my reckoning I have currently lost $350 in this endeavor, mostly due to shipping charges.

It is unfortunate that what could be a lively and educational conversation so often becomes a personal attack. 

Joe

---

Joe, Banjo Hangout brings out nastiness in some people; just look at the way the "Know Nothings" bash eBay listings!  You can't take it personally because it's their nature.  Just ignore it.

dobroman - Posted - 05/12/2011:  06:30:18

Joe,

These same scholars that are bashing your efforts are probably the self educated folks that have bought and sold items that were not what they thought they were. There will be some that are angry because they have been proud of an instrument that is not what they thought it was, and dont want it known that its not the real deal, or as valuable as it was before your book became available. Dont let these guys get you down Joe!! Knowledge is power and you have put a lot of knowledge into the hands of the people that desire it. Rock On Joe!!!

Slingerland - Posted - 05/12/2011:  06:58:41

bobbybanjo and dobroman- Please do not make assumptions on topics to which you are not privy. I have talked with Joe about his book in private about issues that have nothing to do with Gibson instruments or their values. Blind loyalty to anything is not good. 

beezaboy - Posted - 05/12/2011:  07:46:21

I'm with Joe.  Just my opinion.  Not intended to denigrate other viewpoints.  But,

Performing historical research is a difficult endeavor.  Find sources.  Dig it out.  Document it.  Get to the bottom.  Solve the questions.  Try it sometime.

Then, put it on paper.  Tell the story.  Tell the truth best you can.  Get the right words.  Make it flow.  Try it.

Find an outlet.  Get an editor's attention.  Pass thru the reviews and publisher requirements.  Try it.

IMO the purpose for historical research is to convey information and set parameters so that researchers behind you can employ their expertise, their different viewpoints and research skills to expand the topic with the goal of arriving at the truth best you can.  In the best of worlds it should be a collegial effort.

Sorry, off topic, but Joe's efforts will no doubt cause many to re-evaluate the conclusions reached based on the state of the research available at the time.

Edited by - beezaboy on 05/12/2011 07:48:44

bobbybanjo - Posted - 05/12/2011:  07:47:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slingerland

bobbybanjo and dobroman- Please do not make assumptions on topics to which you are not privy. I have talked with Joe about his book in private about issues that have nothing to do with Gibson instruments or their values. Blind loyalty to anything is not good. 

---

I stand by my comments above. 

And your post here makes no sense at all.  If you have some comments to share you may do so but alluding to some "secret" information is a cheap attempt to gain attention which is typical of some of the low life who post here.

RB100 - Posted - 05/12/2011:  07:51:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by bobbybanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slingerland

bobbybanjo and dobroman- Please do not make assumptions on topics to which you are not privy. I have talked with Joe about his book in private about issues that have nothing to do with Gibson instruments or their values. Blind loyalty to anything is not good. 

---

I stand by my comments above. 

And your post here makes no sense at all.  If you have some comments to share you may do so but alluding to some "secret" information is a cheap attempt to gain attention which is typical of some of the low life who post here.

---

I agree with Bobby.

"Blind loyalty to anything is not good." But innuendo with nothing to back up is better?

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Bill

Edited by - RB100 on 05/12/2011 07:59:50

lespik - Posted - 05/12/2011:  08:03:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Spann

It is unfortunate that what could be a lively and educational conversation so often becomes a personal attack. 

Joe

---

Agreed.

Slingerland - Posted - 05/12/2011:  08:08:29

Joe knows exactly what I am talking about. It involves Joe's portrayal of the Dayton String Instrument Co, a subject which a colleague and I have conducted more research than any other person presently know. We have spent huge amounts of time and resources researching the company and its history; it involves more than going on to Mugwumps or reading A.P. Sharpe.

I have not attacked Joe personally. 

Beezaboy- I agree with you completely as to how the process should work.

Joe said on this forum that he would like his research advanced by future researchers. It is not appropriate for anyone to rely on this book (or any other) as the end all be all, as I have heard many people talk about it as. 

Joe Spann - Posted - 05/12/2011:  09:02:11

Paul (Slingerland) disagrees with my personal opinion about the instruments of the Dayton String Instrument Company.  Which he has every right to his opinion.

As I stated in "Spann's Guide", it is my opinion that the instruments of the Dayton String Instrument Company are primarily imitative and derivative of early Gibson designs.  They aren't exactly the same, merely similar.  For example, the carved-top, teardrop shape, oval soundhole mandolin body was first proposed and built by Orville Gibson.  It was what made his mandolins different from the "tater-bug" designs.

Here is an example of two Dayton String Instrument Company mandolins.  They aren't exactly the same as Gibsons, but the basic design is imitative and derivative.

vintageinstruments.com/museum/...page.html

Banjorb3 - Posted - 05/12/2011:  09:33:10

Well, the most surprising revelation to me was the introduction of the style 12 in 1933.  Joe, were these three banjos listed somewhere as style 12s at the time of manufacture, or are we calling them that simply because they look like the 12s of 1937?

Ken  

Slingerland - Posted - 05/12/2011:  09:33:49

Joe- I would have had no problem if you had said Dayton instruments were "merely similar" to Gibson instruments. You use Dayton as your only example of  "Unauthorized Copies" of Gibson Instruments.  This could be compared to calling your book a "Unauthorized Copy" of a John Deere manual because it shares the same colors and design features. I don't think there is anyone who could reasonable believe that to be true.

The owner of the company (Charles Rauch) was issued two patents for his innovative instrument designs. A copy of the patent used for Dayton mandolins and guitars can be found at this link....http://google.com/patents?id=4...mp;f=false

The patent used in constructing Rauch's mandolins and guitars created a double chamber within the instrument, to compensate for tonal disturbances caused from the instrument being compressed against the body of the player.

Dayton banjos, which make up for a majority of the existing Dayton instruments, bear no resemblance to Gibson instruments at all, except for some of them being labeled "The Dayton".   A copy of the banjo patent can be found at this link.....http://google.com/patents?id=M...mp;f=false

This is strong evidence that Dayton instruments are not "Unauthorized Copies" of Gibson Instruments. You portray Dayton as a company that was making forgeries that Gibson would have been justified in suing. I can't see how a reasonable person after conducting appropriate could come to that conclusion.

You based this section of your book on an email I sent you in December of 2010. If I would have know you would be using this information in the book, I would have provided you with more detailed information, to enable you to present the Dayton Co. in an accurate light.  Knowing that I have been extensively researching the company, you did not ask for more information. You say you conducted independent research on Dayton, but you include no other information in the book other than what I sent to you.

In the section following the section on Dayton, who discuss how Gibson copied features extensively from Lange. These copied features were much more significant than the similarities Dayton instruments share with Gibson instruments. But yet you don't classify Gibson as being "Unauthorized Copies" of Lange instruments.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you have a duty in writing books of this nature, to present the subjects fairly.

I am not trying to discount the importance of your book. I own a copy and plan to use it.

Edited by - Slingerland on 05/12/2011 09:40:59

Slingerland - Posted - 05/12/2011:  09:56:06

Of lesser importance, you also say that "The Dayton" was silk screened into the pegheads of Dayton instruments, when in reality, no Dayton instrument has been documented with a silk screened peghead. The instruments that do have "The Dayton" on the peghead, have it inlaid in MOP.

Greg Earnest - Posted - 05/12/2011:  10:19:58

I have been privileged to have a front-row seat over the past few years as Joe has conducted the research that culminated in this book.  I can personally attest that, more than anything else, he cares about getting things right.  As he has said both in the book and on this forum, he welcomes informed debate. . . but the way to go about it is not with veiled insinuations and remarks about how much money people might be making, the purpose of which I still don't understand.

Slingerland - Posted - 05/12/2011:  10:24:42

I think Joe should be making money off the work he has done.

The Old Timer - Posted - 05/12/2011:  11:03:16

I know a little bit how this feels, writing articles for Bluegrass Unlimited.  It's truly a labor of love, and very near "vanity publishing" when you get right down to it, after you stop and count up your expenses!  (Not intending "vanity publishing" to denigrate, but that's what it's called in the publishing world!  Lord knows I've done it.) 

I hope Joe doesn't feel he needs to defend anything in his book here on the BHO, I believe he's said he stands by his work but he's open to new learnings.  Without even reading it yet, I respect his effort and good intentions.

I for one, want a copy, is it actually on the market and for sale now? 

I liked this thread BEST when it was simply funny (DMiller).

Slingerland - Posted - 05/12/2011:  11:06:50

As I said earlier, I discussed my issues with the book with Joe in private. I did not go into any of the specifics until Joe talked about it.

Joe Spann - Posted - 05/12/2011:  11:49:22

Well Paul, I've certainly gotten an education in the Dayton String Instrument Company.

And you've done an excellent job of ruining my excitement over the debut of my book.

It took four years to write and you tore it down in less than 24 hours.

Maybe someday you'll write a book too.

TwoTrax - Posted - 05/12/2011:  11:56:45

RB100 - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:01:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by TwoTrax

---

This is perhaps the lowest that I have seen a response sink to on the hangout...Joe, please understand that not everyone here is of this bent...

Bill

Slingerland - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:24:48

Joe- I'm done talking about it. I did not want to ruin your excitement. I've expressed my gratitude to you for your contributions. Best wishes,

Paul

horseman - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:27:19

just my 2 cents...two trax don't make no sense. must have a $2 bet on the loser. it don't pay @ the window. no dog in the fight.

BanjoLink - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:30:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB100

quote:

---

Originally posted by TwoTrax

---

This is perhaps the lowest that I have seen a response sink to on the hangout...Joe, please understand that not everyone here is of this bent...

Bill

---

 Dittos!!!!!!  Same with Greg Earnest's post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

snakeherd - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:43:05

It's hard not to suspect that Joe is going to be a target for anyone who's 'pre-war' doesn't meet his criteria. People have spent a lot of time and effort convincing themselves and others that they have the real thing, and are likely to remain in denial.

bobbybanjo - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:46:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Spann

Well Paul, I've certainly gotten an education in the Dayton String Instrument Company.

And you've done an excellent job of ruining my excitement over the debut of my book.

It took four years to write and you tore it down in less than 24 hours.

Maybe someday you'll write a book too.

---

Joe, just blow it off. 

No one can change the fact that you published a very valuable and informative book.

ktbown - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:47:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greg Earnest

I have been privileged to have a front-row seat over the past few years as Joe has conducted the research that culminated in this book.  I can personally attest that, more than anything else, he cares about getting things right.  As he has said both in the book and on this forum, he welcomes informed debate. . . but the way to go about it is not with veiled insinuations and remarks about how much money people might be making, the purpose of which I still don't understand.

 

---

 I don't know the countless times I have used your website Greg ..... for info on the old gibsons ... would like to say "Thank You" for that ....   I'm sure Joe's book will be well used over the years .... by me and many others .

Greg Earnest - Posted - 05/12/2011:  12:53:37

Thanks, ktbown. . . Joe's book will now be close at hand whenever I'm working on the site.

ge

John Steele - Posted - 05/12/2011:  14:55:16

Joe, I received my copy up here in Canada, and I've enjoyed going through it, and will many more times.  Great work. 

   I seem to remember you have an interest in genealogy.  Over the years I've been involved in the writing of several volumes of local genealogical data through our historical society.  Something interesting happened, which may be a common occurrence to those more experienced than I;   After several years of research, and knowing that we had knocked on every door, and investigated everything in the most thorough way possible, the book would be published. Almost immediately there was an avalanche of feedback, particularly corrections, sometimes strongly-worded variances in opinion (!!), and sometimes information for which we had begged and pleaded to acquire for the book, to no avail. It was very frustrating.   However, looking back at it many years later, I realize that it served as a catalyst for discussion which, in the long run, would only serve to illuminate the subject even more.   Anyway, you probably know all that, but I thought I would share that with you. 

I think you should be commended for a significant and important piece of work.

- John

Mike Casey - Posted - 05/12/2011:  17:32:46

Joe,  I certainly appreciate all the research you've done.  I hope you realize some profit for your hard work.   I suggest you enjoy the attention you deserve and I hope the good outweighs the bad.  We are all better off for your book.  One thing for sure.  It will stop a lot misinformation and fraud from entering the pre war Gibson market.   

dhergert - Posted - 05/12/2011:  23:01:09

Anyone who has published anything related to such unique details --  spontaneously, out of their own interest -- knows there isn't much if any money in it.  It's a labor of love.  If this kind of publication breaks even, it's somewhat amazing.  The fact that it has been published is also somewhat amazing, the process is so long and arduous both on the research and preparation side, and on the technical publishing side. 

Whether Joe's book is the final word on some details or not does not matter -- we in the banjo community are richer because of his research and labors to make this book available.  It is a wonderful book, an instant classic that will stimulate thought and Gibson related knowledge searches for decades to come.

Thanks Joe!!!

Best,

-- Don Hergert

Sweet Tidings Gospel Jam

sweettidingsgospeljam.com



"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:

only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."

-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896

Oldtwanger - Posted - 05/13/2011:  04:33:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by dhergert

Anyone who has published anything related to such unique details --  spontaneously, out of their own interest -- knows there isn't much if any money in it.  It's a labor of love.  If this kind of publication breaks even, it's somewhat amazing.  The fact that it has been published is also somewhat amazing, the process is so long and arduous both on the research and preparation side, and on the technical publishing side. 

Whether Joe's book is the final word on some details or not does not matter -- we in the banjo community are richer because of his research and labors to make this book available.  It is a wonderful book, an instant classic that will stimulate thought and Gibson related knowledge searches for decades to come.

Thanks Joe!!!

---

Thank you Don, for this post.  I could not find the words to express my feelings this well.

After reading some of the posts in this thread I was ready to bail out of the Hangout and leave the petty sniping to those who seem to thrive on it.

Your words have reminded me that there are many others here who truly love the quest for knowledge of these instruments.  

Members like you make the rest somewhat more tolerable.

Joe has worked long and hard on this remarkable work and deserves a great deal of respect, not criticism.

lightgauge - Posted - 05/13/2011:  04:58:25

"Joe has worked long and hard on this remarkable work and deserves a great deal of respect, not criticism""""""

 Well said.

It is always easier to let someone else do something and then find fault , than it is to do it yourself. If anyone disagrees to the point of publicly posting their displeasure, remember you are free to write your own book--and should. Then you can share in the "supposed wealth". 

I think most of us appreciate the time and work invested in another valuable resource 

country frank - Posted - 05/13/2011:  07:42:37

Well I cant wait to get my copy here in the UK [c'mon Amazon what's going on?], I know it will be a riveting read and i know i am going to learn a hell of a lot about something i currently know little about.

Its a pity that a negative element often manifests itself in the shadow of supreme effort and without doubt this book is a supreme effort. Thank you in advance Joe.

2many5s - Posted - 05/13/2011:  07:45:30

Joe,

I know how some of these comments can hurt, regardless of the mountain of positive ones. I don't know any of these folks, (except for you) but have been monitoring your progress through Steve Huber and others for some time.

I need to get my copy at some point, but I already understand what work went into it, believe me. For that I, and the banjo community at large, are very, very grateful.

One can only do what one can do. If people don't get that, well, remember what is said about those who can't take a joke...

lespik - Posted - 05/13/2011:  09:01:41

I think I may be spending too much time on the HO, and these threads especially. I swear when I woke up this morning, it was from a dream about pre-war Gibson Catalogs. No joke.

dobroman - Posted - 05/13/2011:  09:43:04

UPS says my copy should make it today. I have looked forward to it for a long time and it will be what I do with my Friday night this week. Joe, knowing the time it took to complete and then you taking the time to sign it for me makes it all the more fun.

Thanks!!!