KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  08:45:31

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Let's put it this way -- if you are willing to undermine the SPLC, is that in defense of the groups they have identified as hate groups? Please refer to my earlier posting of the eight groups in my area identified by the SPLC, and tell which you are willing to endorse or defend. Otherwise the attack on the credibility of SPLS is simply a red herring. If your comments re SPLC are not related to defending the aforesaid groups, then it is simply an unrelated ad hominem attack.

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Edited by - KE on 02/25/2011 08:46:45

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  08:52:16

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I agree pretty much with minstrelmike and also believe the thread is political. The tipoff is the stridency of the the NPR-like self-righteous Greek chorus that always accompanies these progressive forays (not saying that was the OP's intent). We all know that old tune. "It's all for the children and you are a racist"

Let's start in agreement here: hate groups are not nice (now you can't accuse me of being in favor of hate groups and obscure the conversation). To say that there seems to be more hate going around these days is true and trivial. All you have to do is check the media today (Friday) to verify the OP's claim.

The problem is that it gets political and rather ridiculous when you see the list of suspects. You guys are joking, right? The KKK? The skinheads? They are the threat? Please. These guys are all beating each other up in prison or lined up waiting to get back in. The only halfway serious bunch is the NBPP, but you don't see them on TV these days. Look around you and see the real hate groups running around right under your nose.

I just checked some news sites on the web and I saw lots of violent people, I saw union thuggery, I saw unions calling for blood in the streets, I saw reporters being beat down. Right here in the US of A. Then a bunch of people on the HO are telling me it's the Aryan Nation being hateful and I must be a racist for mentioning anything that doesn't fit the program. Of course, that's political.

But it's also a lot a fun and I wouldn't ever want it to change.

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:03:58

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

Let's put it this way -- if you are willing to undermine the SPLC, is that in defense of the groups they have identified as hate groups? Please refer to my earlier posting of the eight groups in my area identified by the SPLC, and tell which you are willing to endorse or defend. Otherwise the attack on the credibility of SPLS is simply a red herring. If your comments re SPLC are not related to defending the aforesaid groups, then it is simply an unrelated ad hominem attack.

---

Another unfortunate logic string.

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:06:03

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

Let's put it this way -- if you are willing to undermine the SPLC, is that in defense of the groups they have identified as hate groups? Please refer to my earlier posting of the eight groups in my area identified by the SPLC, and tell which you are willing to endorse or defend. Otherwise the attack on the credibility of SPLS is simply a red herring. If your comments re SPLC are not related to defending the aforesaid groups, then it is simply an unrelated ad hominem attack.

---

Another unfortunate logic string.

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I understand it is unfortunate, but where is it wrong?

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:22:10

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

Let's put it this way -- if you are willing to undermine the SPLC, is that in defense of the groups they have identified as hate groups? Please refer to my earlier posting of the eight groups in my area identified by the SPLC, and tell which you are willing to endorse or defend. Otherwise the attack on the credibility of SPLS is simply a red herring. If your comments re SPLC are not related to defending the aforesaid groups, then it is simply an unrelated ad hominem attack.

---

Another unfortunate logic string.

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I understand it is unfortunate, but where is it wrong?

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Logic statements must have clear meaning and must be either true or false. Undefined statements. Pretense conclusion stated first.

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:47:16

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OK. We can work with that and proceed.

Let's start with the first sentence of the top post: "A new study by the Southern Poverty Law Center describes a big rise in hate groups across the country."

Seems well-defined. Is this statement true or false?

Two parts: Did the SPLC study state that or not?
Do you agree or disagree with their assertion?

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Edited by - KE on 02/25/2011 09:49:13

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:58:21

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

OK. We can work with that and proceed.

Let's start with the first sentence of the top post: "A new study by the Southern Poverty Law Center describes a big rise in hate groups across the country."

Seems well-defined. Is this statement true or false?

Two parts: Did the SPLC study state that or not?
Do you agree or disagree with their assertion?

---

Actually its not a well defined statement at all. Undefined determination of "hate group". What is a hate group? Who defines a group as a hate group? What is the criteria?

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:02:31

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Good grief.

inniepie - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:04:11

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youtube.com/user/samvaknin#p/u...uafQNmjFA

Not to butt in here but this video is worth watching if you have the time/interest and gives an interesting perspective on racism and hate groups .Freud said that we reserve our most virulent emotions - aggression, envy, hatred - towards those who resemble us the most...

mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:08:32

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sultans of Claw

Good grief.

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Agreed. Circular logic, rope-a-dope, John Cleese teaching the "Argument Clinic" on Monty Python.........anything but discussing the issue at hand, lol. One wonders why?

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:09:09

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

OK. We can work with that and proceed.

Let's start with the first sentence of the top post: "A new study by the Southern Poverty Law Center describes a big rise in hate groups across the country."

Seems well-defined. Is this statement true or false?

Two parts: Did the SPLC study state that or not?
Do you agree or disagree with their assertion?

---

Actually its not a well defined statement at all. Undefined determination of "hate group". What is a hate group? Who defines a group as a hate group? What is the criteria?

---

I propose using the wikipedia definition as a start. Do you propose an alternative?

"A hate group is an organized group or movement that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation or other designated sector of society."

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:11:23

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quote:

---

Originally posted by mullie1

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sultans of Claw

Good grief.

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Agreed. Circular logic, rope-a-dope, John Cleese teaching the "Argument Clinic" on Monty Python.........anything but discussing the issue at hand, lol. One wonders why?

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Like trying to walk across a lake on a watermelon.

mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:12:24

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sultans of Claw

quote:

---

Originally posted by mullie1

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sultans of Claw

Good grief.

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Agreed. Circular logic, rope-a-dope, John Cleese teaching the "Argument Clinic" on Monty Python.........anything but discussing the issue at hand, lol. One wonders why?

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Like trying to walk across a lake on a watermelon.

True dat!

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KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:15:11

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Psst, peanut gallery! We're trying to work here.

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:18:01

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PEEEAAAAAANUTTS! GET YER PEEEEAANUTTS!

mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:18:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by KE

Psst, peanut gallery! We're trying to work here.

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Sorry....continue (I need more popcorn anyway!)

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:20:06

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JW, you are not supposed to notice that. You obviously are just a hater and probably belong to one of the EIGHT DANGEROUS HATE GROUPS. These EIGHT DANGEROUS HATE GROUPS are all you have to know about. Ignore what you see and hear, because the blessed SPLC has done all the work for you.

inniepie - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:21:05

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

Psst, peanut gallery! We're trying to work here.

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Geesh I'll be no one has watched the video...this is starting to feel like an old boys club....I'm gonna go make chocolate banana bread...

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Edited by - inniepie on 02/25/2011 10:23:34

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:23:53

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

OK. We can work with that and proceed.

Let's start with the first sentence of the top post: "A new study by the Southern Poverty Law Center describes a big rise in hate groups across the country."

Seems well-defined. Is this statement true or false?

Two parts: Did the SPLC study state that or not?
Do you agree or disagree with their assertion?

---

Actually its not a well defined statement at all. Undefined determination of "hate group". What is a hate group? Who defines a group as a hate group? What is the criteria?

---

I propose using the wikipedia definition as a start. Do you propose an alternative?

"A hate group is an organized group or movement that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation or other designated sector of society."

---

Obscure writer definitions from wikipedia are not a credible defintion. For a more official and credible definition what is the Federal govt definition of hate groups? Either the congressional or judicial definition will do.

fivebranch - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:30:00

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"other designated sector of society."
Not to advocate any hate group but "other designated sector of society" that could be limitless how about Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:30:52

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quote:

---

Originally posted by inniepie

quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

Psst, peanut gallery! We're trying to work here.

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Geesh I'll be no one has watched the video...this is starting to feel like an old boys club....I'm gonna go make chocolate banana bread...

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Who you calling old? Don't be hating on us, sister. And let me know when the chocolate banana bread is ready. <ducking>

inniepie - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:37:25

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Who you calling old? Don't be hating on us, sister. And let me know when the chocolate banana bread is ready. <ducking>
[/quote]

(Whack).....It'll be ready in approximately 1 hour...the little woman's been busy in the kitchen

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Edited by - inniepie on 02/25/2011 10:37:58

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:38:07

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quote:

---

Originally posted by fivebranch

"other designated sector of society."
Not to advocate any hate group but "other designated sector of society" that could be limitless how about Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.

---

Right. Let's strike that. That leaves:

"A hate group is an organized group or movement that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation."

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:39:44

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quote:

---

Originally posted by inniepie

youtube.com/user/samvaknin#p/u...uafQNmjFA

Not to butt in here but this video is worth watching if you have the time/interest and gives an interesting perspective on racism and hate groups .Freud said that we reserve our most virulent emotions - aggression, envy, hatred - towards those who resemble us the most...

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"other" vs "nearly us" is useful. I can see how that relates to narcissism.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:40:32

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"I propose using the wikipedia definition as a start. Do you propose an alternative?

'A hate group is an organized group or movement that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation or other designated sector of society.' -- KE

Let's test your definition. Does it include the SEIU? CAIR? They practice hostility towards a designated sector of society.

I expect you will say 'NO!' so I say your definition is weak and clearly subject to political manipulation. It is more about controlling people than protecting anybody.

How about another test of your wonderful WikiDef:

What if there is a sect that hates another sect but there is no hostility and no violence? Just hate? How would you know that? This is where we never get a lucid answer just mumbling and waving of hands. So I can safely say in advance that I won't be reading any honest attempt to reply to that question.

Since you have no answer for that, why is the 'hate' in there if you don't know yourself how to find objective evidence for it. Isn't hostility and violence enough? We all understand that. What's with the 'mystery' word here. What is your real agenda insisting on a weak mysterious definition?

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:44:38

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Check above. If you're in agreement, we're moving past "other designated sector of society."

The key word is "practices." I wouldn't care whether or not you hate me unless it manifests say, as Westboro Baptist Church.

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:47:25

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Sorry for my snippy "peanut gallery" comment. It's not my place. It takes all the ingredients to make a stew, especially the salt and pepper.

Where the heck has bobbybanjo gone?

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Edited by - KE on 02/25/2011 10:48:05

Voyageur - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:47:53

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What's all this I'm hearing about people objecting to "hat groups?" I love hats and don't think anyone has the right to criticize people who wear hats, or get together to talk about hats, or go shopping for a hat.

Oh...you said "hate groups." Never mind.

mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:51:14

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Voyageur

What's all this I'm hearing about people objecting to "hat groups?" I love hats and don't think anyone has the right to criticize people who wear hats, or get together to talk about hats, or go shopping for a hat.

Oh...you said "hate groups." Never mind.

---

I have the same problem with people complaining about all of the violins on television! I love violins and the music is soothing.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:52:24

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"The key word is 'practices' I wouldn't care whether or not you hate me " -- KE

That's my point. How do you know when someone is "practicing hate"?

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  10:57:24

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I suppose a noose on your effigy would qualify. Or tying you a fence and beating you with a pipe. Or calling you a subhuman criminal for taking a job to feed your family. Or defacing the wall of your synagogue, mosque or church. Or holding a protest disrupting your son's military funeral.

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:00:43

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KE still waiting on the official US congressional or judicial definition of hate groups.

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:05:49

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

KE still waiting on the official US congressional or judicial definition of hate groups.

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I've been occupied. Why don't you go find it, since you were invited to propose an alternative, it seems your job.

mike gregory - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:08:24

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quote:

---

Originally posted by inniepie

quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

Psst, peanut gallery! We're trying to work here.

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Geesh I'll be no one has watched the video...this is starting to feel like an old boys club....I'm gonna go make chocolate banana bread...

---

Well, I wasn't going to watch it just yet, but your comment filled me with such self-loathing that I had to go back and click on the link.

The dark-skinned genocidal violence portrayed in "Hotel Rwanda" and the light-skinned genocidal violence portrayed in "Schindler's List" would tend to support the position taken by Mr. Vaknin and Mr. Freud.

We could, of course, insist that the films horribly exaggerate minor incidents, or that the incidents never happened, but that would be another thread topic entirely.

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:10:08

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

KE still waiting on the official US congressional or judicial definition of hate groups.

---

See if this helps definitions.uslegal.com/h/hate-crime/

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:11:27

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"I suppose a noose on your effigy would qualify. Or tying you a fence and beating you with a pipe. Or calling you a subhuman criminal for taking a job to feed your family. Or defacing the wall of your synagogue, mosque or church. Or holding a protest disrupting your son's military funeral." -- KE

OK. Let's look at that. We have some clear criminal offenses here, covered by laws on the books or in dispute.

We have two others that would have to fall under the hate category: drawing a rope and name calling.

You clearly think it is very important to have a criminal category that includes any audio or video information that offends you. Here is where we get into trouble. We all agree that stuff that offends us should be punished, but I want to be the one who draws up the list, not you. Why do you get to be the king and not me?

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:12:44

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

KE still waiting on the official US congressional or judicial definition of hate groups.

---

See if this helps definitions.uslegal.com/h/hate-crime/

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Not relevant for the discussion.

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:16:01

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Ball's in your court, friend.

mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:19:24

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

[quote]....Not relevant for the discussion.

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definition of "lazy" - unwilling to do any work or make an effort

(sorry, back to the peanut gallery!)

inniepie - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:19:31

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

Ball's in your court, friend.

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WE are missing you KE in a much more sophisticated and intellectually stimulating forum topic...
Same to you voyageur, especially if you like hats...

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Edited by - inniepie on 02/25/2011 11:20:39

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:24:12

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

quote:

---

Originally posted by KE

quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

KE still waiting on the official US congressional or judicial definition of hate groups.

---

See if this helps definitions.uslegal.com/h/hate-crime/

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Not relevant for the discussion.

---

Absolutely relevant.

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/c...te_crimes

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:30:42

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"The dark-skinned genocidal violence portrayed in Hotel Rwanda and the light-skinned genocidal violence portrayed in Schindler's List would tend to support the position taken by Mr. Vaknin and Mr. Freud. We could, of course, insist that the films horribly exaggerate minor incidents, or that the incidents never happened, but that would be another thread topic entirely." -- mike

The world's cultures offer us many instances for wonder and comment. I am not sure that the size of the incident is as important as the behavior itself. Any trait can be scaled up or down, but some are interesting at any scale. For example, the albinos in central Africa.

They walk, they talk, and they look like everyone else except for their pigmentation. Because of that difference, they are universally hated and hunted down for their body parts. Analyze that Herr Vaknin. (Something makes me think Herr Vaknin subsists on government grants.)

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 02/25/2011 11:33:03

mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:32:26

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sultans of Claw

[quote]Absolutely relevant.

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/c...te_crimes

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Thanks for the link! The type of hate crimes highlighted on that site are currently at a level not seen by the FBI in over 30 years. Of course some here will dispute the source, definitions, pictures, credibility, meaning, spelling, blah, blah, blah....just to avoid admitting the extent of the situation and the profile of many of the perpetrators.

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:33:46

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And then there's this:

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/c...ection249

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  12:17:57

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Dress

"I suppose a noose on your effigy would qualify. Or tying you a fence and beating you with a pipe. Or calling you a subhuman criminal for taking a job to feed your family. Or defacing the wall of your synagogue, mosque or church. Or holding a protest disrupting your son's military funeral." -- KE

OK. Let's look at that. We have some clear criminal offenses here, covered by laws on the books or in dispute.

We have two others that would have to fall under the hate category: drawing a rope and name calling.

You clearly think it is very important to have a criminal category that includes any audio or video information that offends you. Here is where we get into trouble. We all agree that stuff that offends us should be punished, but I want to be the one who draws up the list, not you. Why do you get to be the king and not me?

---

You couldn't be further off-base. By point:

"You clearly think it is very important to have a criminal category that includes audio or video information that offends you." - Where did you pull that from? I think no such thing.

"We all agree that stuff that offends us should be punished" - No we don't.

". . . but I want to be the one to draw up the list, not you. Why do you get to be the king and not me?" - Did I not propose a tentative definition of hate group and request suggestions for revision, or an alternative? Was not the first suggestion offered accepted? And yet, further revisions were not forthcoming. Either put up, or shut up, but stop playing the victim.

---

Edited by - KE on 02/25/2011 12:19:46

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  12:24:38

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KE,

FYI, had you researched, you would have found NO Congressional or Judicial definition of "Hate Group" for the some of the reasons posted in this thread by other members along with constitutional issues. The simple fact is the term was fabricated and propagandized by SPLC for raising donation money for personal gain and promotion of SPLC ideology.

As previously stated by other members selective determination of groups as “Hate Groups” is subjective classification at best and is perpetrated by SPLC for use on individuals or groups by projecting unfavorable labels to persuade public opinion, shut down dissenting opinions or de-legitimize opposing causes in order to promote their ideology or agenda.

mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  12:28:21

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sigh, how sad

KE - Posted - 02/25/2011:  12:37:54

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

KE,

FYI, had you researched, you would have found NO Congressional or Judicial definition of "Hate Group" for the some of the reasons posted in this thread by other members along with constitutional issues. The simple fact is the term was fabricated and propagandized by SPLC for raising donation money for personal gain and promotion of SPLC ideology.

As previously stated by other members selective determination of groups as “Hate Groups” is subjective classification at best and is perpetrated by SPLC for use on individuals or groups by projecting unfavorable labels to persuade public opinion, shut down dissenting opinions or de-legitimize opposing causes in order to promote their ideology or agenda.

---

You proposed it, not I. I know you wanted to put up a strawman, but why? It avoids the central argument.

There are clearly statutory definitions of hate crime; a group practicing a hate crime would reasonably be called a hate group.

I submit it is very important to identify and call out those groups practicing the definition I gave. The SPLC has done so. I wouldn't care who has done so -- the practice of hate deserves universal condemnation.

At least nobody here has yet publicly admitted to defending the groups cited as hate groups. There is at least that much discomfort exhibited.

jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011:  12:38:04

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mullie1

quote:

---

Originally posted by jwgreene01

[quote]....Not relevant for the discussion.

---

definition of "lazy" - unwilling to do any work or make an effort

(sorry, back to the peanut gallery!)

---

Another projected unsavory and unfounded judgement