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feldspar1333 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:00:31
quote:
Originally posted by KE
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie
Morris Dees?? zianet.com/web/dees1.htm I have no idea!!
Really?! You're going to link a wife's statement made in a divorce? Toward what end? Unsubstantiated innuendo on an unrelated subject? Shame!
I really don't see the relevance.... I do not have time to read a diatribe about his "sexual appetite".... good grief.
Ronnie - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:05:28
Someone suggested we research the man. No skin off my nose one way or the other.
feldspar1333 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:08:46
quote:
Originally posted by jwgreene01
They have been using "Hate" lists as a fund raiser for decades. Sleaze at its worst. They target anyone who is a conservative or believes in a limited govt.
Its all just BS!
Another ridiculous statement that, by definition, is deserving of ridicule.
Edited by - feldspar1333 on 02/24/2011 16:14:14
feldspar1333 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:13:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie
Someone suggested we research the man. No skin off my nose one way or the other.
Copy that Ronnie. Thanks for the clarification....
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:21:16
Copy that as well, but with all the available information, I'm not sure why you'd choose <that> if you didn't have a position one way or another.
minstrelmike - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:28:17
recession = more hate groups
Ronnie - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:28:47
Honestly, I could care less one way or the other. Google him yourself if you wish. I don't know the gentleman!
Edited by - Ronnie on 02/24/2011 16:32:09
Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:33:12
Irrelevant to the discussion. If he was Satan himself it would be irrelevant to the discussion. Classic ad hominem argument.
Richard Dress - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:35:33
"Why are people being apologists for this sort of ugliness? I understand the desire to debate topics (I am a proud member of the trolls/malcontents!), but give me a break....." -- unknown
I am not sure where this came from but all of a sudden people are starting to throw turds around. What happened to reasoned argument? Why is ugliness so close to the surface? Usually when reason fails the food fight starts.
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:52:12
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
KE, Thanks for a definition. It tells me that whoever is in charge of 'designating' is necessarily in charge of creating or shielding criminality on an ad hoc basis. That's political and Wiki is putting forward a definition that tries to give respectability to extremist politics. Witness the recent episode with the NBPP in Philly.
As far as a visible resurgence of hate groups, I have to say that the demonstrations in Wisconsin have given us a long list of initialed groups to ponder. However, I would laugh at SPLC as a credible source for anything. I doubt the SPLC list has even one of the organizations that were public and in-your-face with calls for violence just these last few days right here in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana ... Anybody want to bet?
feldspar1333 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
"Why are people being apologists for this sort of ugliness? I understand the desire to debate topics (I am a proud member of the trolls/malcontents!), but give me a break....." -- unknown
I am not sure where this came from but all of a sudden people are starting to throw turds around. What happened to reasoned argument? Why is ugliness so close to the surface? Usually when reason fails the food fight starts.
Richard,
There is no food fight here. I take issue with people attempting to mainstream rascist organizations by claiming that any group that opposes the current administration's policies is labeled a Hate Group. We are talking about Hate Groups Richard.... a little ugliness is gonna happen, however I am happy to have a reasonable debate. It is not ugly to object strenuously when people start being apologists for racism.
Edited by - feldspar1333 on 02/24/2011 16:55:03
mullie1 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:54:40
quote:
Originally posted by KE
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
KE, you are educated. You understand what I am saying but you ignore it and start to babble. That's not showing me respect in this exchange of ideas. Your argument is not what I would expect of a highly educated person. If you can't address the political implications of 'who gets to do the designating', then take issue with my discrediting of SPLC, but please don't just start blowing smoke and tossing red herrings right and left.
Sorry to be irritated but you are not treating me as an intellectual equal.
Well then, perhaps you should elaborate, because I clearly must have misunderstood. The definition of hate group seems defensible. In what way is the definition 'extremist politics?' And please further elaborate on your statement 'shielding criminality' - what criminality and who is shielding it?
Those were my thoughts after reading Richard's post (which I am still trying to understand along with his other posts) and so far there has been no response. I also don't see any "food fight" here, just some people looking for clarification. Pretty civil stuff.
kipperr - Posted - 02/24/2011: 16:57:44
Well, since this has turned into a SPLC debate, I have had some experience with them, and have used their materials. They don't seem unlike any of a number of organizations that use current events to try to drum up monetary support. Whether you think that is right or not is your opinion, but many organizations do this.
The NRA for example. I had to tell them to take me off of their mailing list because everytime some member of a certain political party was about to be elected to national office, they would send out these "the sky is falling/they're fixing to take our guns away/send us some money so we can fight back" letters. What an insult to my intelligence. I just used the money they wanted me to send them, and bought another rifle (Mossberg .270).
SOP for most special interest groups. Your opinion on whether that is good or bad.
Now if you'll excuse me, I really need to get back to doing some posing and trolling. 
Richard Dress - Posted - 02/24/2011: 17:43:58
Feldspar, KE's definition and your position seems to be that groups can be included or excluded arbitrarily, depending solely on the political whim of the power brokers. To say that it does some good along the way in no way excuses the abuses, the abusers, or the potential abuses, just abets them. You say you don't like hate groups or people who defend them (me I guess, if you are feeling dishonest). It's very reckless to toss crap like that willy nilly into a thread. It makes you appear frothing. And it casts a dark pall over the entire thread. (Why are people so quick these days to get up the cry "Burn the witch!")
I will admit that my original intent was to flip a dab of chum into the waters to see if we could enliven a rainy day. But that is not being a troll, since my points were both relevant and needed for balance. The shine on the SPLC should be seen for what it is: swamp gas. In any case, shouting racism when you can't point to anything but your own misunderstanding is more than I expected as a response. I feel like the cabin cruiser captain in Jaws now.
'Creating or shielding' means that the powers-that-be (i.e. the ones writing the rule book) can create a criminal or shield another criminal simply by putting 'designated' into the thought crime legal language. Or they may just bypass the law altogether and 'designate' whatever they like. Sort of like the behavior we have always seen in the third world officialdom and are beginning to see all around us here in the good old USA.
Pete13 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 18:00:59
Hate and extremist groups have always, and will always be with us. Whether the agenda they're pushing is a political or religious one is all the same to me. The more extreme their viewpoint gets, the more it fails, as the average person perceives them as nutjobs, and rightfully so.
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 18:15:14
Here is a list of the eight groups in my area identified by the SPLC as hate groups:
Nation of Islam (Black Separatist)
Since its founding in 1930, the Nation of Islam (NOI) has grown into one of the wealthiest and best-known organizations in black America. Its theology of innate black superiority over whites and the deeply racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic rhetoric of its leaders have earned the NOI a prominent position in the ranks of organized hate.
Aryan Nations 88 (Neo-Nazi)
Aryan Nations (AN) was once a powerful organizing force for white supremacists that cultivated a wide spectrum of racist and anti-Semitic ideas.
Volksfront (Racist skinhead)
According to groups such as the Anti-Defamation League, Volksfront is a virulently racist and anti-Semitic group that has become the most active neo-Nazi group on the West Coast of the United States, and which maintains close alliances with many other hate groups.
Blood and Honor (Racist Skinhead)
Based in the United Kingdom, Blood & Honour is a shadowy international coalition of racist skinhead gangs. In the United States, two rival groups claim to be affiliated with Blood & Honour.
Council of Conservative Citizens (White Nationalist) and allied with
Conservative Citizens Foundation (White Nationalist)
The Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) is the modern reincarnation of the old White Citizens Councils, which were formed in the 1950s and 1960s to battle school desegregation in the South. Created in 1985 from the mailing lists of its predecessor organization, the CCC has evolved into a crudely white supremacist group.
New Black Panther Party (Black Separatist)
The New Black Panther Party is a virulently racist and anti-Semitic organization whose leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law enforcement officers.
Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (Ku Klux Klan)
Founded by David Duke in 1975, the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan has attempted to put a "kinder, gentler" face on the Klan, courting media attention and attempting to portray itself as a modern "white civil rights" organization. But beneath that veneer lurks the same bigoted rhetoric.
Please tell me which of these groups you feel have been unfairly targeted as hate groups.
Edited by - KE on 02/24/2011 18:16:50
Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/24/2011: 18:19:37
I have to admit, all those groups are pretty conservative and do believe in limited government.
fivebranch - Posted - 02/24/2011: 18:25:52
Can you have a group that believes in limited government without being classified as a hate group?? While being conservative??
Edited by - fivebranch on 02/24/2011 18:26:30
jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 18:29:55
quote:
Originally posted by feldspar1333
quote:
Originally posted by jwgreene01
They have been using "Hate" lists as a fund raiser for decades. Sleaze at its worst. They target anyone who is a conservative or believes in a limited govt.
Its all just BS!
Another ridiculous statement that, by definition, is deserving of ridicule.
Feldspar1333, ridiculous statement? Just maybe you should do some research on SPLC. Its all there waiting on you to do discovery, instead of making umarticulated comments. SPLC was exposed years ago.
Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/24/2011: 18:33:10
quote:
Originally posted by fivebranch
Can you have a group that believes in limited government without being classified as a hate group?? While being conservative??
Sure.
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 18:40:18
quote:
Originally posted by Sultans of Claw
quote:
Originally posted by fivebranch
Can you have a group that believes in limited government without being classified as a hate group?? While being conservative??
Sure.
Of course! Surely, there are many not "practicing hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation or other designated sector of society." A group can clearly advocate for a conservative cause without promoting hatred and violence.
Edited by - KE on 02/24/2011 18:43:44
feldspar1333 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 19:06:45
Richard,
Who is frothing? I am not. I objected to statements that alledged that the SPLC targets any group that does not agree with the adminstrations policies, or any conservative group that wants smaller government. I object to these statements because they do not at all reflect the nature of the groups tracked by the SPLC. Suggesting that the groups that the SPLC tracks are mainstream conservatives lends legitimacy to the groups they do track.
Richard Dress - Posted - 02/24/2011: 19:26:20
What are you talking about, KE? You are saying those eight groups are scaring the people in your part of Uzbekistan? I bet the Uzbeks would laugh at all eight of them as being wimps and eat them for breakfast. BTW, CAIR should be on the list if the list had any relevance at all, and I bet they would make the Uzbeks nervous.
The last time I saw the KKK was in 'Birth of a Nation'. Please. Look, just because SPLC has some bad people on their list, that doesn't make the SPLC the good guys. Anybody can make a list. Old Joe was on Adolph's S-list--they were both scumbags.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/24/2011: 19:27:33
quote:
Originally posted by KE
Here is a list of the eight groups in my area identified by the SPLC as hate groups:
Nation of Islam (Black Separatist)
Since its founding in 1930, the Nation of Islam (NOI) has grown into one of the wealthiest and best-known organizations in black America. Its theology of innate black superiority over whites and the deeply racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic rhetoric of its leaders have earned the NOI a prominent position in the ranks of organized hate.
Aryan Nations 88 (Neo-Nazi)
Aryan Nations (AN) was once a powerful organizing force for white supremacists that cultivated a wide spectrum of racist and anti-Semitic ideas.
Volksfront (Racist skinhead)
According to groups such as the Anti-Defamation League, Volksfront is a virulently racist and anti-Semitic group that has become the most active neo-Nazi group on the West Coast of the United States, and which maintains close alliances with many other hate groups.
Blood and Honor (Racist Skinhead)
Based in the United Kingdom, Blood & Honour is a shadowy international coalition of racist skinhead gangs. In the United States, two rival groups claim to be affiliated with Blood & Honour.
Council of Conservative Citizens (White Nationalist) and allied with
Conservative Citizens Foundation (White Nationalist)
The Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) is the modern reincarnation of the old White Citizens Councils, which were formed in the 1950s and 1960s to battle school desegregation in the South. Created in 1985 from the mailing lists of its predecessor organization, the CCC has evolved into a crudely white supremacist group.
New Black Panther Party (Black Separatist)
The New Black Panther Party is a virulently racist and anti-Semitic organization whose leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law enforcement officers.
Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (Ku Klux Klan)
Founded by David Duke in 1975, the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan has attempted to put a "kinder, gentler" face on the Klan, courting media attention and attempting to portray itself as a modern "white civil rights" organization. But beneath that veneer lurks the same bigoted rhetoric.
Please tell me which of these groups you feel have been unfairly targeted as hate groups.
I did not want to get involved in this and this hurts banjo playing time. But if you look at the SPLC Hate Groups brochure cover (shown on their website) you will see it highlighting people that want to close the border as part of hate groups. People wanting to enforce the laws of the land may be considered conservative by liberals and they may also be called haters but I don't believe they are. It seems like the SPLC considers them so.
Also please consider this statement from the cover page on the SPLC website:
"Mainstream politicians have promoted many of the ideas and conspiracy theories important to these groups. (these groups refer to hate groups, my addition). Last April, for example, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed S.B. 1070, the harshest state anti-immigrant law in the country, setting off a flood of proposals for similar laws. State legislators also have offered proposals that would roll back birthright citizenship, bar judges from considering Islamic law in state courtrooms, institute an alternative currency, and even allow a state to disregard federal laws and regulations."
1st Gov. Brewer's law was not anti immigration but it was anti illegal immigration. She put no further restrictions on immigration laws than the US government already has in place (but the US Govt enforces these laws with discrimination).
Barring judges from considering Islamic law in state courtrooms constitutes hate groups? Insisting on using the laws of our land constitutes hate group mentality? It does seem the SPLC had a very liberal tendency and a bias against many tenants of a conservative agenda.
ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 02/24/2011 19:31:10
Ronnie - Posted - 02/24/2011: 19:32:22
During the 1970's someone stuck an Invisible Empire (KKK) sticker on my banjo case and fragments of it are still there. I don't know where they got their glue!! "You have been visited by the Ku Klux Klan" These guys were pretty active in my area.
Edited by - Ronnie on 02/24/2011 19:41:57
jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 20:16:51
Just a very small piece of a good article outlining what SPLC really is, the man behind the curtain.
Immigration and the SPLC: How the Southern Poverty Law Center Invented a Smear, Served La Raza, Manipulated the Press, and Duped its Donors
By Jerry Kammer
March 2010
Taking Account of Morris Dees
A few journalists, mostly writing in liberal publications, have described a long history of hustling, hypocrisy, and hucksterism at the Southern Poverty Law Center.
“No one has been more assiduous in inflating the profile of [hate] groups than the millionaire huckster, Morris Dees,” wrote JoAnn Wypijewski of The Nation magazine in 2001.98
Ripping the SPLC as “puffed up crusaders,” Wypijewski wrote: “Hate sells; poor people don’t, which is why readers who go to the SPLC’s website will find only a handful of cases on such non-lucrative causes as fair housing, worker safety, or healthcare, many of those from the 1970s and 1980s. Why the organization continues to keep ‘Poverty’ (or even ‘Law’) in its name can be ascribed only to nostalgia or a cynical understanding of the marketing possibilities in class guilt.”
In 2009, liberal journalist Alexander Cockburn called Dees the “arch-salesman of hate-mongering.” Under a headline that labeled Dees the “King of the Hate Business,” he said Dees thrived by “selling the notion there’s a right resurgence out there in the hinterland with massed legions of haters, ready to march down Main Street draped in Klan robes, a copy of ‘Mein Kampf’ tucked under one arm and a Bible under the other … . Ever since 1971, U.S. Postal Service mailbags have bulged with his fundraising letters, scaring dollars out of the pockets of trembling liberals aghast at his lurid depictions of hate-sodden America.”99
Jesuit humanities professor Raymond A. Schroth, writing in the National Catholic Reporter, described Dees’ manipulation this way: “He focuses on a real problem and packages it to suit his purposes. If the problem is nuanced, complicated … he provides a prism, based partly on fear, through which we can view the issue: The Internet is out of control; hate groups are poisoning the World Wide Web. His Southern Poverty Law Center, with your help, will save you.”100
The law center’s publicity machine continues to deify Dees as an aging but tireless patriarch of a national movement. On December 15, 2009 — Dees’ 73rd birthday — SPLC donors received an e-mail that featured the SPLC’s trademark concoction of joyful celebration, somber sentiment, cold commerce, and cult-like glorification of Dees. It hailed the healing, redemptive power of giving him money:
Spirits are unusually high today at the Southern Poverty Law Center — we’re celebrating Morris’s birthday and his commitment to justice that has made our work possible. Morris’s courage in standing up to hate and intolerance — and the personal risks he has taken while pursuing justice on behalf of hate victims — have inspired millions … . Please take a moment to honor him by sending a personalized birthday message along with a special tax-deductible gift to support his work. We’ll make sure he receives your message. Your support of Morris’s and the SPLC’s fight for justice and tolerance is crucial. Standing together, we’ll be a powerful force against those who seek to split us along racial and ethnic lines.
Edited by - jwgreene01 on 02/24/2011 20:19:59
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 20:31:17
OK. I think I see where some of the misunderstandings are coming from. In addition to their work on hate groups, the SPLC works on other causes. Their four identified areas of concern are: children at risk, hate and extremism, immigrant justice, and teaching tolerance.
FG to BB: I believe the groups involved in immigration labelled by the SPLC as hate groups received that designation because of their public statements that have a racist and xenophobic component identifying Mexicans as subhuman criminals.
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 20:40:26
quote:
Originally posted by jwgreene01
Just a very small piece of a good article outlining what SPLC really is, the man behind the curtain.
Immigration and the SPLC: How the Southern Poverty Law Center Invented a Smear, Served La Raza, Manipulated the Press, and Duped its Donors
By Jerry Kammer
March 2010
Is that the same Jerry Kammer that draws a paycheck from the Center for Immigration Studies?
cis.org/AboutNot that there's anything wrong with that, but he does represent an organization clearly at odds with the SPLC, hence the ad hominem attack.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/24/2011: 20:49:18
quote:
Originally posted by KE
OK. I think I see where some of the misunderstandings are coming from. In addition to their work on hate groups, the SPLC works on other causes. Their four identified areas of concern are: children at risk, hate and extremism, immigrant justice, and teaching tolerance.
FG to BB: I believe the groups involved in immigration labelled by the SPLC as hate groups received that designation because of their public statements that have a racist and xenophobic component identifying Mexicans as subhuman criminals.
Good luck all, I am out of here.
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 20:53:22
Good night. Nice talking with you.
Oktave - Posted - 02/24/2011: 21:09:54
Hello,
I just for put my grain of little French.
So first of all, I dont understand all the posts, nor all the parallels debate.
In France it seems perfectly staggering than a militia armed replaces police.
The right to bear arms in the street is just as much stagerring !
Here, the violence of American films is often criticized as well.
When Obama was elected, many French people thought he will be killed before the end of his first year !
There is a tendency here to be the image of a traditionally violent America.
Born of the Indian genocide and enriched by slavery.
Sorry. "teach a lesson" is a French tradition. Since we invented the human right (Me, I'm for anything, that day I was at the pool !) we no longer feel our farts (it's a French expression, I do not know if you Have this one? It means "to believe himself is perfect", a variant called "fart higher than his ass ".) !
(Or maybe that is the smell of ours cheeses that covers the smell!?)
Anyway in Europe also he had noticed an increase in extreme right parties.
I believe there is not to twist your ass to s*** right (it's still a French expression, Roughly speaking it means "don't break the head" .. thin! "Break the head" it works in America? It's "Do not bother" ?... brief ... Moving on.)!
I think this increase follows on September 11. Ben Laden advocates for racism! For all the racisms!
For you, Your risk could be a group of militia, than by dint of walking the streets with big guns, no longer feel fart!
With us, unless we elected democratically have, nothing to fear from this groups. This is not armed groups.
The horrors of World War II are still fresh in us minds. The finality of racism is known, and it is scary! In France, the discourse of extreme right parties is much less free than in America. Curbing by the laws but also by the popular outcry that would arise immediately.
-
skuse my inglish, am frênch -
French version :Salut,
Je viens mettre mon grain de sable de petit français.
Alors avant tout, j'ai pas compris tout les posst, ni toutes les discutions parallèles.
En France il semble parfaitement aberrant qu'il puisse exister des milices armés remplaçant la police.
Le droit de porter une arme dans la rue l'est tout autant !
Lorsque Obama a était élus, beaucoup de français ont pensé qu'ils allez se faire tuer avant la fin de sa première année !
Ici, la violence des films américains (les box-office essentiellement) est souvent critiqué aussi.
On a tendance ici à avoir l'image d'une Amérique traditionnellement violente.
Né du génocide indien puis enrichi par l'esclavage.
Désolée. "donner des leçons" c'est une tradition française. Depuis que l'on a inventé les droit de l'homme (Moi j'y suis pour rien, ce jour là j'avais piscine !) on se sent plus péter (c'est une expression française, je ne sait pas si vous l'avez celle là ? Ca veut dire "qu'on se croit parfait", une variante dit "que l'on pète plus haut que notre cul".)!
(A moins que se ne soit l'odeur de nos fromage qui recouvre l'odeur !?)
Quoiqu'il en soit en Europe aussi il a était remarqué une augmentation des partis d'extrême droite.
Je crois qu'il n'ya pas à tortiller du fion pour chier droit (c'est encore une expression française, Grosso-modo ça veut dire "faut pas se casser la tête" ..mince ! "Se casser la tête" elle fonctionne en Amérique ? ..bref. Passons.) !
Cette augmentation fait suite au 11 septembre. Ben Laden milite pour le racisme ! Quel-qu'il soit !
Chez vous le risque pourrait être qu'un groupe de milicien, à force de se promener dans les rues avec des gros flingues, ne se sentent plus péter !
Chez nous à moins d'être démocratiquement élus nous n'avons rien à craindre de ses groupes. Ce n'est pas des groupes armés.
De plus les horreurs de la seconde guerre sont encore bien présente dans les esprits. La finalité du racisme est connus, et elle est effrayante ! Chez nous le discours des partis d'extrême droite est beaucoup moins libre que chez vous. Autand par la lois que par le tollé populaire que cela soulèverai.
KE - Posted - 02/24/2011: 21:17:39
Merci. Votre francais est très facile à lire.
pick1936 - Posted - 02/24/2011: 21:21:47
Hi Ronnie, Off The subjsct, But I see where You stated somewhere Carl Perkins Was A Friend and Neighbor, Carl is The first Rockabilly, His influence got Me stated on Guitar over 50 Years ago. I loved His bass Runs, and high string pickin. anyway I don't' know of many Hate groups.
Nechville. In Higginsville.
Lee Kelso
Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/25/2011: 03:45:43
quote:
Originally posted by KE
Is that the same Jerry Kammer that draws a paycheck from the Center for Immigration Studies?
cis.org/About
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he does represent an organization clearly at odds with the SPLC, hence the ad hominem attack.
And a true master of purple prose: "Postal Mailbags have bulged with his fund raising letters."
Ronnie - Posted - 02/25/2011: 05:34:54
Lee, he was a good man. We buried Carl Jan. 23, 1998, Em's 3rd birthday. He would carry Em in his arms and say "Ronnie, You have been blessed." (Cursed, maybe, but she is worth it.) Check out rockabillyhall.org a few blocks from the house. Now back to our regularly scheduled topic.
mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011: 05:42:42
Having received first hand confirmation, along with some interesting facts as to where much of this hate is coming from, I find it almost comical that some on this thread are trying to focus the debate on the SPLC rather than deal with the issue at hand which is the recent rise in hate group membership, domestic terror plots, hate speech, and violence. Like I mentioned before....we have not come very far from the era of the 60's, and that's pretty pathetic. You know that when the "definition" of hate (or the potential agenda of the messenger) becomes the focus of the discussion - and not at a minimum acknowledging that there is a problem -than we've taken several steps backward in dealing with the issue. Igorance is bliss, sadly.
kipperr - Posted - 02/25/2011: 06:30:07
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
Having received first hand confirmation, along with some interesting facts as to where much of this hate is coming from, I find it almost comical that some on this thread are trying to focus the debate on the SPLC rather than deal with the issue at hand which is the recent rise in hate group membership, domestic terror plots, hate speech, and violence.
Well, the OP made the SPLC part of the focus in the first place by referencing their study to promote the idea.
It's been part of this debate from the first thread. If we can't critically evaluate the sources of our information, we're in trouble.
mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011: 06:42:38
quote:
Originally posted by kipperr
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
Having received first hand confirmation, along with some interesting facts as to where much of this hate is coming from, I find it almost comical that some on this thread are trying to focus the debate on the SPLC rather than deal with the issue at hand which is the recent rise in hate group membership, domestic terror plots, hate speech, and violence.
Well, the OP made the SPLC part of the focus in the first place by referencing their study to promote the idea.
It's been part of this debate from the first thread. If we can't critically evaluate the sources of our information, we're in trouble.
Point well taken. However the FOCUS of this thread has been (intentionally?) sidetracked in to a bashing of the messenger rather than an intelligent discussion of the issue. If anyone has information proving that hate groups & violence are
not rising or has factual information to counter the SPLC's statement than let's discuss. IMO it's lazy to simply try to criticize sources without attempting to deal with the topic or the facts presented.
BConk - Posted - 02/25/2011: 06:50:25
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
Having received first hand confirmation, along with some interesting facts as to where much of this hate is coming from, I find it almost comical that some on this thread are trying to focus the debate on the SPLC rather than deal with the issue at hand which is the recent rise in hate group membership, domestic terror plots, hate speech, and violence. Like I mentioned before....we have not come very far from the era of the 60's, and that's pretty pathetic. You know that when the "definition" of hate (or the potential agenda of the messenger) becomes the focus of the discussion - and not at a minimum acknowledging that there is a problem -than we've taken several steps backward in dealing with the issue. Igorance is bliss, sadly.
Hey! They're not Hate Groups - they're just patriotic, armed and organized groups of citizens that are willing to commit acts of violence because they're concerned that there's a negro president, too many Mexicans in the country, and too many Jews in banking.
mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011: 06:54:47
quote:
Originally posted by BConk
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
Having received first hand confirmation, along with some interesting facts as to where much of this hate is coming from, I find it almost comical that some on this thread are trying to focus the debate on the SPLC rather than deal with the issue at hand which is the recent rise in hate group membership, domestic terror plots, hate speech, and violence. Like I mentioned before....we have not come very far from the era of the 60's, and that's pretty pathetic. You know that when the "definition" of hate (or the potential agenda of the messenger) becomes the focus of the discussion - and not at a minimum acknowledging that there is a problem -than we've taken several steps backward in dealing with the issue. Igorance is bliss, sadly.
Hey! They're not Hate Groups - they're just patriotic, armed and organized groups of citizens that are willing to commit acts of violence because they're concerned that there's a negro president, too many Mexicans in the country, and too many Jews in banking.
I guess you're right......but while planning violence, what if they wear flag lapel pins, recite God Bless America as a group, shout that they "want their country back", and call themselves patriots? That must count for somethin'??
BConk - Posted - 02/25/2011: 06:58:29
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
quote:
Originally posted by BConk
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
Having received first hand confirmation, along with some interesting facts as to where much of this hate is coming from, I find it almost comical that some on this thread are trying to focus the debate on the SPLC rather than deal with the issue at hand which is the recent rise in hate group membership, domestic terror plots, hate speech, and violence. Like I mentioned before....we have not come very far from the era of the 60's, and that's pretty pathetic. You know that when the "definition" of hate (or the potential agenda of the messenger) becomes the focus of the discussion - and not at a minimum acknowledging that there is a problem -than we've taken several steps backward in dealing with the issue. Igorance is bliss, sadly.
Hey! They're not Hate Groups - they're just patriotic, armed and organized groups of citizens that are willing to commit acts of violence because they're concerned that there's a negro president, too many Mexicans in the country, and too many Jews in banking.
I guess you're right......but while planning violence, what if they wear flag lapel pins, recite God Bless America as a group, shout that they "want their country back", and call themselves patriots? That must count for somethin'??
Of course it does! And the holocaust never happened...and South Carolina did not secede from the Union to preserve slavery!
KE - Posted - 02/25/2011: 07:21:17
quote:
Originally posted by BConk
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
Having received first hand confirmation, along with some interesting facts as to where much of this hate is coming from, I find it almost comical that some on this thread are trying to focus the debate on the SPLC rather than deal with the issue at hand which is the recent rise in hate group membership, domestic terror plots, hate speech, and violence. Like I mentioned before....we have not come very far from the era of the 60's, and that's pretty pathetic. You know that when the "definition" of hate (or the potential agenda of the messenger) becomes the focus of the discussion - and not at a minimum acknowledging that there is a problem -than we've taken several steps backward in dealing with the issue. Igorance is bliss, sadly.
Hey! They're not Hate Groups - they're just patriotic, armed and organized groups of citizens that are willing to commit acts of violence because they're concerned that there's a negro president, too many Mexicans in the country, and too many Jews in banking.
You do have a subtle way of making your point. I bow in your general direction.
minstrelmike - Posted - 02/25/2011: 07:25:30
Hate groups always exist.
They increase membership during times of decreasing resources for the population.
All you have to do is blame the problem on 'them.' Democrats, Republicans, immigrants, illegal immigrants, Wall Street bankers, foreign agents, foreign terrorists, domestic terrorists, rappers, whatever. It doesn't fix the problem. Take homosexuality. Assume all the homosexuals suddenly disappeared. Which of the current world or local problems disappear?
Same with most any group. That's the definition of analysis. Assume the folks you hate all go away and you realize very little is fixed except the person's own comfort level. Notice that the 950 different denominations of Christianity were formed due to divides between believers. No one outside the church cared one whit for the folks inside who created their own divisions.
In other words, 'love' isn't a fix either.
I fail to see why this isn't a political topic whereas global warming is a political topic.
Here are two other groups you can hate: Global warming believers, global warming deniers.
Sultans of Claw - Posted - 02/25/2011: 07:48:24
quote:
Originally posted by KE
You do have a subtle way of making your point. I bow in your general direction.
As do I.
mullie1 - Posted - 02/25/2011: 07:51:32
Georgia congressman Paul Broun's response was not to condemn the person or the question - but to agree that he too was frustrated. Unbelievable, but I'll bet Broun and the questioner were wearing flag lapel pins.
athenscms.com/blogs/2487/
Voyageur - Posted - 02/25/2011: 08:17:45
I am too lazy today to craft an intelligent comment, so I'm just going to agree with Brian [BConk] and Mike [minstrelmike].
jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011: 08:22:36
quote:
Originally posted by KE
quote:
Originally posted by jwgreene01
Just a very small piece of a good article outlining what SPLC really is, the man behind the curtain.
Immigration and the SPLC: How the Southern Poverty Law Center Invented a Smear, Served La Raza, Manipulated the Press, and Duped its Donors
By Jerry Kammer
March 2010
Is that the same Jerry Kammer that draws a paycheck from the Center for Immigration Studies?
cis.org/About
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he does represent an organization clearly at odds with the SPLC, hence the ad hominem attack.
Isn't this statement an ad hominem attack?
Inability to recognize and address the primary facts that SPLC has for 40 years used fear tactics through propaganda to raise donations for questionable purposes (spending less than 3% of donations in 2008 on litigation for their causes) or investigate their lack of transparent financials is the issue. Unfortunately, those who are unwilling to read and examine this perspective and factually disprove this articles' information or for that matter any dissenting opinions clearly defines and dismisses any responses/statements as subjective, unreliable and without merit.
Additionally, anyone using statements without supporting evidence and verification of facts diminishes their position to un-factual rhetorical opinion while underscoring their lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
Edited by - jwgreene01 on 02/25/2011 08:34:29
KE - Posted - 02/25/2011: 08:28:45
No sir, I believe it is simply calling out a faulty argument on the basis of an invalid logical construction. Kammer is simply using his creds as a journalist to do a hack job for hire.
Edit: I'm not going to try to keep up with responding to the edits in prior posts, even if the 15 minutes have not expired.
Edited by - KE on 02/25/2011 08:38:49
jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011: 08:40:54
quote:
Originally posted by KE
No sir, I believe it is simply calling out a faulty argument on the basis of an invalid logical construction. Kammer is simply using his creds as a journalist to do a hack job for hire.
Everyone is certainly entitled to their beliefs and/or opinion. Again;
Unfortunately, those who are unwilling to read and examine this perspective and factually disprove this articles' information or for that matter any dissenting opinions clearly defines and dismisses any responses/statements as subjective, unreliable and without merit,
Any one using statements without supporting evidence and verification of facts diminishes their position to un-factual rhetorical opinion while underscoring their lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
jwgreene01 - Posted - 02/25/2011: 08:43:37
quote:
Originally posted by KE
Edit: I'm not going to try to keep up with responding to the edits in prior posts, even if the 15 minutes have not expired.
LOL I don't blame you. Only minor spelling or gramatical changes.
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