Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/12/2011:  20:36:45

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The point of this isn't to say who was first to play Melodic Style, Reno style, whatever. I think that is kind of a pointless discussion, especially the more I dive into the older stuff. Some of the early minstrel material is extremely complex and contains all sorts of techniques that went on to be used in modern day banjo playing.

However, I do think awareness needs to be raised about some of the older styles and techniques being used during those time periods. Which is my reasoning for creating this thread.

I've been working on this piece from 1919 and found it contained some material that was later adapted into bluegrass, progressive banjo. It is by Fred Van Eps and it is called Kirmanshah:

If you listen at 1:30 you'll hear some nice melodic phrases. Of course, the rest of the song is full of Single-string techniques.

Also, at 0.10 is a lick that kind of reminds me of your standard bluegrass lick at the 3rd fret of second string with open 1st as drone.

youtube.com/watch?v=jFD6gSH78iw

It really is a fascinating historical study to go back and listen at the old players (even those before Van Eps) and see how banjo playing evolved throughout the years.

PS:I would greatly appreciate it if this thread wasn't moved elsewhere for the sake of banjo knowledge and a greater audience......Gibson Banjos, Earl Scruggs, Bill Keith, pre-war banjos, and how do I convert mp3's? (hopefully that will help) :P :P

Thanks,
Jody

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/12/2011 20:39:15

MitchellB - Posted - 02/13/2011:  05:26:50

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Great banjo player for sure.

deuceswilde - Posted - 02/13/2011:  08:11:18

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I'd love to be in this discussion and help provide examples of documentation, but....

For us hacks that don't know squat about country or modern wire string techniques- could you give a brief definition at to what "single-string/ melodic" is?

The Old Timer - Posted - 02/13/2011:  08:38:11

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Now there's some pre-war tone! Talk about "pulling tone", he's really snapping them old (gut?) strings!!! I hear a lot of thumb/index playing, some 3 finger triplets (makes me think of some of Bela Fleck's tricks), some alternating index/middle lines (like the 5-6-7 notes in Old Joe Clark), chording with 3 or more fingers, etc. I confess I can't pick out a lot of single string passages, but my mind isn't quick enough anymore to visualize instantly what I hear. The REAL old timers (and I include Uncle Dave Macon) used a huge arsenal of banjo styles, whether frailing/clawhammer, two finger, three finger, four finger, "rapping", up/down strokes, melodic, etc. 100 years ago there wasn't just a single style of banjo. If you were an expert banjo player, you knew and used them all (listen to a lot of Uncle Dave's records and see how broadly skilled he was!).

I love that big opening 4th string slide up to the 5th fret, just like Earl in Hot Corn Cold Corn!

You can see Van Epps banjos for sale on various vintage instrument websites, his own design. They seem to be REALLY nicely made instruments! One feature was an internal metal bowl/reflector that hung inside the rim just below the head, to amplify the instrument (like a Dobro?) I've seen one for sale intact, and another for sale with the metal bowl crudely snipped away by a pair of metal shears!

Van Epps was the "modern master" of the banjo (which was nearly ONLY 5 string in his day) for sure. How great to hear recordings like this.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/13/2011:  08:48:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by deuceswilde

I'd love to be in this discussion and help provide examples of documentation, but....

For us hacks that don't know squat about country or modern wire string techniques- could you give a brief definition at to what "single-string/ melodic" is?

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Sure,

Single-string=consecutively playing more than one note on a single-string. In upstroke style this makes it so one can't do a "roll."
This is accomplished with your right hand by playing thumb-index or another variation like thumb-index-thumb-middle
In this particular song referenced, the very beginning goes:


_____0_2_0_____________
_0_1_______1_0_________
_______________________
_______________________
_______________________
T I T I T I.....etc

These cannot be played as a "roll" so a thumb-index or appropriate variation has to be used with your right hand to get the notes. Of course, I'm talking up stroke style here. Clawhammer and Minstrel players would be doing this with downward strokes and perhaps adding hammer-ons.
Many people believe this sort of thing started with Don Reno or Eddie Adcock, when in fact it was being used much earlier as a technique. Another example can be heard in Earl Scrugg's "Pike County Breakdown."

Melodics=To me this is more playing across the strings, so that the notes ring together in a harp like fashion. This was popularized by people like Carroll Best and later Bill Keith/Bobby Thompson.

An easy example would be a G major scale
_________0____4________________
_____0______5__________________
_0_____5______________________
___7_________________________
_________________0____________


Hope that clears up the terms? In some ways they are both misnomers, as you don't use the technique to only play on a "single-string" and what isn't "melodic"? Yet, these are the terms we are stuck with when discussing said techniques.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/13/2011:  08:54:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Old Timer
I love that big opening 4th string slide up to the 5th fret, just like Earl in Hot Corn Cold Corn!

You can see Van Epps banjos for sale on various vintage instrument websites, his own design. They seem to be REALLY nicely made instruments! One feature was an internal metal bowl/reflector that hung inside the rim just below the head, to amplify the instrument (like a Dobro?) I've seen one for sale intact, and another for sale with the metal bowl crudely snipped away by a pair of metal shears!

Van Epps was the "modern master" of the banjo (which was nearly ONLY 5 string in his day) for sure. How great to hear recordings like this.

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Yeah, Uncle Dave was great. Such an entertainer as well. I think those 4th string slides are one of my favorite parts as well.
I was really attracted to the tune after hearing the minor section and the timing of it. Some neat chord progressions in there.

BTW, I'm jealous of your banjo collection

deuceswilde - Posted - 02/13/2011:  14:08:02

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OK, got it.

That is pretty much the standard approach in the guitar style of banjo playing.

Frank Converse's "Analytical Banjo Method," 1886, page 38- "First Exercises. Guitar Style." The main difference is that he teaches using the ring finger. Also relevant are 14:40 and 14:41.

Lansing goes into "alternate RH fingering" in his instructor, 1889.

Stewart gets into it some in his "Observations on the Banjo and Banjo Playing, 1892.

In fact it is pretty common fare throughout the mid-late 19th century.

I don't know the reason for thumb(X)-first(1)-second(2) and repeat, when X1X1X1 or 121212 work just as efficient with the principles of economy of movement. Perhaps it was an attempt to keep the "roll" going. As a side note "roll" before modern Scruggs/whatever style meant something different. It was a quick arpeggio with each note clearly defined, for full explanation see SSS's "Complete American Banjo School," page 35.

With the exception of Lansing's, all the above referenced works can be downloaded free from my website...

thejoelhooks.com/Site/Home.html

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/13/2011:  17:13:18

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Thanks for all the information, I have read through the Converse method but haven't seen the others I don't believe.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/15/2011:  12:17:50

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Anyone else? I was hoping for more comments and input.
Anyways, if you aren't familiar with the following names be sure to check them out:

Vess Ossman, Fred Van Eps, Parke Hunter, William Ball, Tarrant Bailey Jr, Frank Converse, etc

There is a whole history of banjo playing there.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/15/2011:  21:33:01

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Good on you Jody, I hear you loud and clear. People are stuck in misnomers, ambiguous terms, emotionally laden terms, conceptual boxes, and the like. It's time to widen the gyre, go back, and think about musical ideas, older and fresher approaches. People get so locked in their narrow thinking about the old, received wisdom, that they can't see the forest from the trees. There's so much out there that we can take on board. Great thread. I'm too tired to think on it right now, after a bottle of wine! I'll come back and read. Good on you, Jody!

banjomikey - Posted - 02/15/2011:  23:01:06

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jody Hughes



PS:I would greatly appreciate it if this thread wasn't moved elsewhere for the sake of banjo knowledge and a greater audience......Gibson Banjos, Earl Scruggs, Bill Keith, pre-war banjos, and how do I convert mp3's? (hopefully that will help) :P :P

Thanks,
Jody

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Now you're pushin it man!

Joe Spann - Posted - 02/16/2011:  03:05:18

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This is a great thread that deserves a wider audience.

Understanding the specific bluegrass banjo techniques of the mid-20th century in the wider context of banjo playing generally is a very good thing.

Enjoying it thoroughly.

Joe

banjomikey - Posted - 02/16/2011:  06:22:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jody Hughes

quote:

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Originally posted by The Old Timer
I love that big opening 4th string slide up to the 5th fret, just like Earl in Hot Corn Cold Corn!

You can see Van Epps banjos for sale on various vintage instrument websites, his own design. They seem to be REALLY nicely made instruments! One feature was an internal metal bowl/reflector that hung inside the rim just below the head, to amplify the instrument (like a Dobro?) I've seen one for sale intact, and another for sale with the metal bowl crudely snipped away by a pair of metal shears!

Van Epps was the "modern master" of the banjo (which was nearly ONLY 5 string in his day) for sure. How great to hear recordings like this.

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Love those slides too!


Yeah, Uncle Dave was great. Such an entertainer as well. I think those 4th string slides are one of my favorite parts as well.
I was really attracted to the tune after hearing the minor section and the timing of it. Some neat chord progressions in there.

BTW, I'm jealous of your banjo collection

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Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/17/2011:  13:09:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Good on you Jody, I hear you loud and clear. People are stuck in misnomers, ambiguous terms, emotionally laden terms, conceptual boxes, and the like. It's time to widen the gyre, go back, and think about musical ideas, older and fresher approaches. People get so locked in their narrow thinking about the old, received wisdom, that they can't see the forest from the trees. There's so much out there that we can take on board. Great thread. I'm too tired to think on it right now, after a bottle of wine! I'll come back and read. Good on you, Jody!

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Thanks Tom,
Look forward to your input as well. It does make you think what were such techniques before the advent of terms like single-string/melodics and attaching these techniques to personalities.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/18/2011:  06:55:32

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Jody, this is apropos for this thread:

archive.org/details/VessLOssman

More on Vess Ossman here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vess_Ossman

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/21/2011:  11:21:35

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Here is another one of my favorites, Fred Bacon's Medley of Southern Airs dated around 1920.
It reminds me a lot of Reno's version of "Old Kentucky Home", especially with the double timed part and all.

memory.loc.gov/mbrs/edrs/50674l.wav

It's amazing how advanced banjo playing was during this time period.

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/21/2011 11:21:57

trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/21/2011:  11:48:43

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If you want another eye-opener, try Fred Van Eps 1922 recording of "Chinese Picnic & Oriental Dance".

Download a copy here: madoresobscuremusicblog.blogsp...ntal.html

The glissando in the first few measures is simply crazy. Not exactly single string...but still something that sounds very modern, although from almost 90 yrs in the past.

===Marc

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Edited by - trapdoor2 on 02/21/2011 11:51:33

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/23/2011:  13:35:43

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Yeah I also hear these recordings and I hear some of the same sounds that went on to become sounds that Django Reinhardt used on guitar.
I do wonder where and when the terms "melodic" and "Single-string" were applied. It seems that it occurred after the bluegrass surge.
I know "roll" used to mean something completely different according to the old banjo tutors and then it was later applied to any finger picking pattern.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/23/2011:  15:06:50

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"It reminds me a lot of Reno's version of "Old Kentucky Home", especially with the double timed part and all."

It sure does! Somehow brings up a mental image, young Reno sitting there trying to slow down a 78 hoping to learn this tune...

What always amazes me listening to this kind of music: MELODY is where it's at, period. If they can pretty it up, they'll do it in an astounding way but never anywheres even near the point where the fluff (rolls etc.) is allowed to encroach on, or overshadow, the melody.

Quite humbling really to listen to these techniques being applied in such flawless and incredible perfection...

Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/07/2011:  09:30:04

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Yeah, when I heard that I at once thought of Reno's version. I like that about these older banjo players, they concentrate on melody/variations. They'll do Chord arrangements, tremolo, all sorts of things.

WildJimbo - Posted - 03/07/2011:  09:52:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jody Hughes



If you listen at 1:30 you'll hear some nice melodic phrases. Of course, the rest of the song is full of Single-string techniques.

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Maybe it's just my ear, but it sure sounds like he's playing that passage with a single string technique.

Darcy - Posted - 03/07/2011:  17:15:53

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I really like the melodic run-down at 0:50 on this cut of Dixie/Maple Leaf Rag. I also like that he follows it immediately with the minor version of the same rundown.

youtube.com/watch?v=xNXDVFV3vS0

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Edited by - Darcy on 03/07/2011 17:16:28

Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/07/2011:  19:25:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by WildJimbo

quote:

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Originally posted by Jody Hughes



If you listen at 1:30 you'll hear some nice melodic phrases. Of course, the rest of the song is full of Single-string techniques.

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Maybe it's just my ear, but it sure sounds like he's playing that passage with a single string technique.

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Hey Jim,
You could very well be right.
I slowed this down to transcribe it and what I listen for is a certain "ping" that the fifth string has on these old recordings...in that part of the song it sounded like he was playing the fifth string followed by notes on adjacent strings, not for the whole section but pieces of it.
There is another section in the song I was uncertain about the approach as well (around 0.26)...it sounds like "single-string" to my ear, but at the same time I can't be certain.
Sometimes it's hard to discern where or how someone is playing notes exactly from a recording...especially given the age/quality of the sounds and very often the lower tuning. Too bad we don't have any videos of these performances to know for certain.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/08/2011:  08:06:06

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We do have quite a bit of documentation though. Van Eps published a collection of solos in 1923 and the fingering is notated. I donated my copy to the classic banjo website where you can download all the music for free. classicbanjo.com/tutors/VanEps/toc.htm The piece you're talking about isn't in this collection...but if you work thru his fingerings in this book, you can see how he was playing similar stuff. It leans heavily on "single-string" technique, as that is what was common at the time. "Melodic" or "arpa" style was pretty much avoided...obviously you didn't want an open string to ring longer than the notation requires, easier to control note duration if it is stopped.

John Field - Posted - 03/09/2011:  00:46:27

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The very banjo that Fred Van Eps recorded many of his classic solos on circa 1907 onwards is currently for sale in the classifieds on the Hangout........