xixiant - Posted - 12/31/2010:  20:39:16

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It seems like there ought to be a good story behind it, but the interweb does not reveal its secrets easily.

Links would be appreciated, but anecdotes would be really lovely! Thanks!

cockneybanjo - Posted - 12/31/2010:  21:27:45

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is it simply because they look good and are relatively easy shapes to work with?

....didn't L'il Abner have a job at one time, cutting the half-moons in outside privy doors?

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/01/2011:  01:20:51

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I've heard that S S Stewart employed Turkish inlay cutters, who used the Islamic crescent as an inlay. I can't vouch for the veracity of that story, but certainly crescents were ubiquitous as SSS banjo inlays.

Paul R - Posted - 01/01/2011:  06:01:37

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The star is more common, and would be an obvious choice, as the banjo is an American instrument. The moon is less obvious, although it's probably the only thing that would go with a star. "Moon and stars" - fairly standard expression in songs, if you're going that route.

It may also have to do with styles of the times, such as Art Nouveau and its predecessors.

This could become an interesting research topic, if there were usable sources.

As for tne outhouse door thing, wouldn't a full moon be more, uh, appropriate in that instance?

revellfa - Posted - 01/01/2011:  06:08:52

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I heard the same as Bill Rogers, that the Turks were involved somehow. Would this have been during the end of the Ottoman Empire? If so, that's kinda neat!

McUtsi - Posted - 01/01/2011:  06:16:02

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Images of the sun,the moon & the stars have become archetypal and recognizable
shapes,and signal "long lasting","comforting" etc...and,they´re...beautiful...that´s
all I need.McUtsi

trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/01/2011:  06:39:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I've heard that S S Stewart employed Turkish inlay cutters, who used the Islamic crescent as an inlay. I can't vouch for the veracity of that story, but certainly crescents were ubiquitous as SSS banjo inlays.

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I've heard that too...but it seems awful silly to me. I can hear ol' SSS now:

"What's that, Mustapha? I asked for little squares and leaves and stars. All you've brought me were Crescent moons. Do you think I'm going to buy them just because you like to make them? Hah! Go back and make me more checkerboards or I'll send you back to Mr. Dobson to scratch out more simple-method tunes."

3fingers - Posted - 01/01/2011:  08:18:42

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quote:

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I've heard that S S Stewart employed Turkish inlay cutters, who used the Islamic crescent as an inlay. I can't vouch for the veracity of that story, but certainly crescents were ubiquitous as SSS banjo inlays.

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I've heard that too...but it seems awful silly to me. I can hear ol' SSS now:

"What's that, Mustapha? I asked for little squares and leaves and stars. All you've brought me were Crescent moons. Do you think I'm going to buy them just because you like to make them? Hah! Go back and make me more checkerboards or I'll send you back to Mr. Dobson to scratch out more simple-method tunes."

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I'v also heard this. The way I heard it was that the Turks were very experienced in pearl inlay work and instrument manufacturers used them for inlay work. I also kinda remember that there was a middle Eastern influence in music in the late 1800's and they were inlayed as middle Eastern symbols. I dont know if theres any truth to it but I remember reading something to that effect.

Craig

deuceswilde - Posted - 01/01/2011:  09:27:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I've heard that S S Stewart employed Turkish inlay cutters, who used the Islamic crescent as an inlay. I can't vouch for the veracity of that story, but certainly crescents were ubiquitous as SSS banjo inlays.

---

I've heard that too...but it seems awful silly to me. I can hear ol' SSS now:

"What's that, Mustapha? I asked for little squares and leaves and stars. All you've brought me were Crescent moons. Do you think I'm going to buy them just because you like to make them? Hah! Go back and make me more checkerboards or I'll send you back to Mr. Dobson to scratch out more simple-method tunes."

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He actually did say that. It was one of the topics that we discussed when I met him in Downingtown.

It has been proposed in the past that some sort of mysticism might be at work- I doubt it. Someone also suggested that it is some sort of christian symbolism ; read the Stewart Journal and you'll find a different tone on that subject.

These sorts of decoration show up on all sorts of late 19th century stuff including jewelry. It was pretty and fairly easy to do.

On a side note, real Stewart banjos had very thick pearl in almost 1/4" ebony fingerboards. These were not a department that he skimped in.

Interestingly, if you look closely at the cuts in "Observations on the Banjo and Banjo Playing" (made from photos of SSS' hands) the fingerboard has butterflies inlayed in it.

My thoughts on the SSS checkerboards are- less to stock and easy to get repaired in the hills of Tennessee, or wherever the performer was playing.

mike gregory - Posted - 01/01/2011:  09:53:44

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Oh, what the heck.
If enough people believe it, anything will eventually be defended as if it is a FACT.

So, let's get 53,000 OutHangers to help spread THIS brand-new "well-known FACT":


The moon and stars were used as inlay because so few people Way Back Then knew how to READ, and, since a glance at the heavens, from anywhere on Earth, on a clear night, revealed the moon and stars, this was a simple way for the manufacturers to advertise, in ANY language, that the sound of the banjo is "absolutely heavenly"!

(Source: "HISTORY of BANJO DECORATION " by SEYMOUR MOTS )

deuceswilde - Posted - 01/01/2011:  11:57:32

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No no no... they were star charts.

You see, when illiterate old timers lived in isolation up in the hills, they needed a way to navigate at night in order to get to the contra dances where no two banjoist would play the same style. That is, unless they were direct decedents of an older banjoist. Stewart knew that his main customers were wire-string ear players. So he sold them, through catalogs, $125 presentation banjos as "simple method" maps.

As a side note. The old timers were so isolated that they did not even get catalogs (no mail or contact from the outside world) so they never bought or used the banjos for their intended purpose. So, I find Mr. Gregory's explanation to be the truth.

3fingers - Posted - 01/01/2011:  12:24:47

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You mention Star Charts and I immediately have flashback of This is Spinal Tap and the crab suit LOL

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 01/01/2011:  13:20:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by xixiant

It seems like there ought to be a good story behind it, but the interweb does not reveal its secrets easily.

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Before arriving in Africa -from which it eventually migrated to America- the banjo was native the middle-east.

farm3.static.flickr.com/2427/3...384af.jpg

Therefore; any old banjo seen sporting a moon-and-star inlay pattern is obviously part of a plot to sap America's vital bodily fluids, and they should all be boxed up and sent (no COD's please) to me for safekeeping.

~Pete

Paul R - Posted - 01/01/2011:  21:31:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
Therefore; any old banjo seen sporting a moon-and-star inlay pattern is obviously part of a plot to sap America's vital bodily fluids, and they should all be boxed up and sent (no COD's please) to me for safekeeping.
~Pete

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But, since you're American, you cannot safely keep these things which will surely sap your precious bodily fluids. Therefore, since I am not American, you should send them to me.

My possession of these banjos will further the research into this important topic. Eventually.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 01/01/2011:  23:24:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by Paul R

quote:

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Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
Therefore; any old banjo seen sporting a moon-and-star inlay pattern is obviously part of a plot to sap America's vital bodily fluids, and they should all be boxed up and sent (no COD's please) to me for safekeeping.
~Pete

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But, since you're American, you cannot safely keep these things which will surely sap your precious bodily fluids. Therefore, since I am not American, you should send them to me.

My possession of these banjos will further the research into this important topic. Eventually.

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I admire your bravery in offering to withstand the slings and arrows of outraged fortune for my sake, but I think I'm still strong enough to do the job on my own, and I don't wish to endanger one of our brave Canadian allies.

Besides: I'm now 67 and my remaining precious bodily fluids are few and far between.

~Pete

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Edited by - Deaf Lester Crawdad on 01/01/2011 23:26:17

John Gribble - Posted - 01/02/2011:  01:31:42

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The Masons are probably behind it.

The star alone is easy: Vega

solstation.com/stars/vega.htm

Helix - Posted - 01/02/2011:  04:18:56

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They are talismans, for protection and enjoyment. We use the same stars on our military equipment, so do other armies.

Look at the inlays of the day, they are all hand-cut, one piece, Orpheums stick out in my mind.

Everybody copied Stewart, he was way out ahead.

mike gregory - Posted - 01/02/2011:  08:14:10

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They may be talismans NOW, but some of us old-timers remember back when they were just talisboys.
Back when life was simpler and better.
Back when The Marshall Tucker Band was just the Deputy Tucker Band; when Larry King was just Larry Prince; when General Electric was just PFC Electric; and the Banjo Hangout website was the Gourd On A Stick Telegraphic Society.

raybob - Posted - 01/02/2011:  08:35:14

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Thanks Mike. Happy New Year!

3fingers - Posted - 01/02/2011:  09:51:25

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I wholeheartedly agree Happy New Year and Thanks Mike for another year of making me laugh

Craig

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Edited by - 3fingers on 01/02/2011 09:53:15

erstokke - Posted - 01/02/2011:  11:41:58

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Thanks for the explanation, Mike! Looks like a promising new year. What really cracked me up was this:
---......by SEYMOUR MOTS ---

As to crescent moon and star, my Ome banjo has one one the scroll headstock and one at the 5th fret.

This article claims that "The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. " islam.about.com/od/history/a/c..._moon.htm
You may also read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent

In fear of getting this thread locked and myself expelled, it is interesting to see a muslim symbol on an all American instrument these days. Oh wait, the banjo is African, right? Oh wait, I am getting "All Mixed Up", right? peteseeger.net/allmixedup.htm

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Edited by - erstokke on 01/02/2011 11:54:54

mike gregory - Posted - 01/02/2011:  12:15:09

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Since MOTS is the source for so much inlay on entry-level instruments, I thought it was time to acknowledge his contribution to the worldwide effort.

The Mighty Ant - Posted - 01/03/2011:  12:39:37

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Well, I'm only about a year into my new life as a banjo player, but I never knew that stars and the moon are common on banjos.

I cant recall ever seeing a banjo with stars and a moon on it, except for the picture earlier in this thread. I even google searched and didnt get much.

Sure would be neat to *ahem* see a few more examples, (hint hint)...


Mike

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Edited by - The Mighty Ant on 01/03/2011 12:56:12

mikehalloran - Posted - 01/03/2011:  13:05:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I've heard that S S Stewart employed Turkish inlay cutters, who used the Islamic crescent as an inlay. I can't vouch for the veracity of that story, but certainly crescents were ubiquitous as SSS banjo inlays.

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This is also given as the reason for similar inlays on 19th C. Gibson guitars and mandolins.

There are no 19th C. Gibson banjos... Another clue?

AndyM - Posted - 01/03/2011:  15:09:27

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In olden days, the moon was construed as female and the star as male. Outhouses had one or the other on them so a person could tell which one a person should be visiting. Eventually the males outhouses with the star became so unkept, only the moon symbol for outhouses survived. Why the moon and star was used on instruments is unknown. Were instruments manufactured for either gender? Or, if both symbols were on an instrument, was that considered for either gender? Mike is probably the only one that can explain all this.

stanger - Posted - 01/03/2011:  18:19:49

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikehalloran

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I've heard that S S Stewart employed Turkish inlay cutters, who used the Islamic crescent as an inlay. I can't vouch for the veracity of that story, but certainly crescents were ubiquitous as SSS banjo inlays.

---

This is also given as the reason for similar inlays on 19th C. Gibson guitars and mandolins.

There are no 19th C. Gibson banjos... Another clue?

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I read the same thing a long time ago, too, Mike.

I think it's entirely possible that more than one Turk, or a Greek, or an Italian immigrant knew how to cut inlays. All those countries have a long history of quality inlaying and engraving, and all have used similar motifs for centuries. As it's a skill that is relatively rare, it would be a good one for any skilled immigrant to make a living with in the New Country.

The moon & star motif goes back as far a Egyptian tomb paintings and carvings. It's VERY old. Here in America, it's seen on early tombstones, scrimshaw, quilts, and other decorative stuff.
regards,
stanger

gottasmilealot - Posted - 01/03/2011:  18:48:11

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...because banjo music is out of this world...

Helix - Posted - 01/04/2011:  04:41:14

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True, but: Gourd On A Talisman Stick? G O A T S?

mike gregory - Posted - 01/04/2011:  09:46:04

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Thank you, Helix.
At last, an explanation for the banjos with GOATSkin heads.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/05/2011:  07:36:22

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Try reading about some ART and DESIGN history, of the Victorian Age, sometime.
Among many others (Japanese, Chinese, African, etc.), there were:

. . . o Moorish influences
. . . o Ottoman influences (Ever wonder why hassocks are called "ottomans" --
. . . . . . and why "Turkish" rugs were so common, during the 1800s?)
. . . o Islamic influences.
. . . o Egyptian influences (Re: Napoleon early-1800s / Tut's Tomb, later in the 1920s)

Louis Comfort Tiffany traveled to the Middle East in the 1870s (As did many
Victorians, who went on the Grand Tour of Europe, the Middle East.) It was
an early influence in his work, during the late-1870s and 1880s:


L. C. Tiffany's painting depicting a market outside of the walls of Tangier -- 1873
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Co...t_Tiffany


As a MAJOR American designer, Tiffany was also one of the "taste makers" who
influenced the popular culture of his time... He designed rooms in the White House.

NOTE: Required Banjo content:
L. C. Tiffany also designed the interior of Mark Twain's Connecticut home. Twain...
You know... the guy who penned the infamous words:

"...The piano may do for love-sick girls who lace themsleves to skeletons,
and lunch on chalk, pickles and slate pencils. But give me the banjo. Gottschalk
compared to Sam Pride or Charley Rhoades, is as a Dashaway cocktail to a hot
whisky punch. When you want genuine music -- music that will come right home
to you like a bad quarter, suffuse your system like strychnine whisky, go right
through you like Brandreth's pills, ramify your whole constitution like the measles,
and break out on your hide like the pin-feather pimples on a picked goose, --
when you want all this, just smash your piano, and invoke the glory-beaming banjo!"

. . . "Enthusiastic Eloquence," San Francisco Dramatic Chronicle, 23 June 1865
Source: twainquotes.com/Banjo.html



Before Tiffany (and others) was English architect, Owen Jones, who published his
COLOR 'Grammar of Ornament', in 1868:
illuminated-books.com/viewer-e...k=grammar

(You'll have to type-in the visible numbers -- to be able to look at the various
plates of Jones' book.)


Best-
Ed Britt

Edmund Britt & Co.
Design Consultants
Product Design and Development

338 Main Street, Suite 200-A
Wakefield, MA 01880

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/05/2011 07:51:21

Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/05/2011:  08:43:00

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I wished more of the new banjos incorporated some of the inlay designs of these old banjos.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/05/2011:  11:15:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by cockneybanjo

is it simply because they look good and are relatively easy shapes to work with? ...

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This is also a good point...

Throughout history there have been SIMPLE decorations and ornament added to
homes, tools, and everyday household objects. The easiest way to make those
designs is with simple oldtime DRAFTING tools: The compass, straight edge, and
angle-square. (Yes, those ARE the symbols of Masonry -- BECAUSE they are the
most basic tools for geometric design and analysis.)

The Crescent and star inlays can be designed and laid-out with JUST a simple
compass and straight edge.

In my youth, I heard old craftsment refer to this type of decoration as "compass-work",
and it is refrerred-to that way, in many books on historic ornament and decoration.
Most ancient cultures used geometric ornament, once they developed architectural
forms.

This Elizabethan design is laid-out with compass and straight-edge, but incised using chisles
of specific radii:
pfollansbee.files.wordpress.co...lines.jpg

Lots of 'em:
google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&b...&gs_rfai=


I couldn't find the exact source citation, but much of the text on the following
webpages are taken from one of the mid-19th C. books on ornament -- Possibly
Owen Jones.

ttp://furniturestyles.net/ter...resque.htm

Note: the Moorish pattern below is reminscent of some of the inlay done by Icilio
Consalvi, on some high-end Cole banjos:



On the following pages click on the small images, to enlarge them:
furniturestyles.net/terms/deco...terns.htm

furniturestyles.net/terms/deco...ornament/

Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/05/2011 11:21:10

bordertownbrown - Posted - 01/05/2011:  14:47:48

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The first banjo I ever laied my hands on was an old S.S. Stewart which had moon and star inlays. I always liked the motif and use it in some of the banjos I build today.

Jim Yates - Posted - 01/05/2011:  15:24:10

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wHEN i LAID OUT THE DESIGN FOR THE INLAY ON THE BANJO i BUILT IN THE SEVENTIES, i DIDN'T THINK TWICE ABOUT THE 5TH FRET INLAY. iT WAS A STAR. wHEN i INLAID THE FINGERBOARD OF THE BANJO THAT MY NEICE, sTEPH NOW PLAYS, i USED ALL DOTS EXCEPT FOR THE 5TH FRET, WHICH WAS A STAR. a STAR ON THE 5TH FRET JUST SEEMS TO LOOK RIGHT TO ME.

s**T! i HAD THE CAP LOCKS ON FOR THIS WHOLE MESSAGE.

Home-made open back

Frankenstein Banjo

xixiant - Posted - 01/13/2011:  14:25:39

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...Just when you didn't think the banjo could get any cooler, it goes and does it.

Ottoman? Turkish? Islamic? Moorish? Compass work? Talisboys? Heavenly? MOTS?

Ah, the mystique and allure of the banjo. If only the fam would buy into it. :)

Super, super fun reading, everyone!

Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/13/2011:  21:38:39

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Cool thread!

mikehalloran - Posted - 01/14/2011:  06:56:22

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My Bart Reiter/Vegaphone conversion has 19th C. Coles Eclipse inlays. I understand he no longer does fancy engraving but these certainly look cool on my banjo.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 01/14/2011:  13:39:55

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Not to digress too much, but below is probably the most famous example of moon and stars decoration. My dad worked for Procter & Gamble for over thirty years, and our family was always signed up to be on various product test panels. I was about 13 before I discovered that all household items like toothpaste and dish detergent didn't come in plain white packaging with code numbers stamped on them. Their famous logo, now replaced by something really boring, goes way back to the beginning of the company in the 1830s. Many of you may remember the rumor mongering in the 1980s which claimed that these were surreptitious satanic symbols, a rumor which was deliberately spread by Amway. Okay, most of you probably aren't old enough to remember that, or Amway, either.

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 01/14/2011 13:42:30

butter - Posted - 04/17/2011:  18:04:13

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I have an antique banjo which has a star on the peghead, There are no manufacture marks except a crescent moon stamped on the wood stringer (that runs from neck to tail.) The 11-inch, nickle-plated brass over maple shell, brackets and tailpiece look like SS Stewart Universal Favorite #1 from pre-1900. I got this banjo for $50 on eBay, It was a basket case which the guy at 5th fret said was not worth what I paid and "a wallhanger". Well, he had a point. The fret board and nut  were gone, the neck was bent but I love a challenge. I bought a precut blank fret board and fret wire, planed the neck warp out, reset the heel to rim angle. filed the frets on sandpaper taped to table saw top---and I'm still playing it. My question to this thread is: Is the crescent moon a maker mark? Possibly SS Stewart? Thanks, the thread has some interesting leads.

Ronnie - Posted - 04/17/2011:  19:18:06

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The star was very prominent on many banjos other then Vega, as was the Crescent on the doors of outdoor toilets.,

mike gregory - Posted - 04/18/2011:  06:15:58

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And thread drift, once again, moves to toilets!

I was told that, in pre-literate times, a vent hole shaped like the Sun (aggressive, blistering, powerful)   was cut into the door of the men's toilet, and the Moon (soft, gentle, changeable, mysterious) was cut into the door of the women's toilet.

And eventually, since the moon was easier to cut, the sun motif lost popularity among the builders of outhouses.

 

Mopick - Posted - 04/18/2011:  07:21:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by Don Borchelt



Not to digress too much, but below is probably the most famous example of moon and stars decoration. My dad worked for Procter & Gamble for over thirty years, and our family was always signed up to be on various product test panels. I was about 13 before I discovered that all household items like toothpaste and dish detergent didn't come in plain white packaging with code numbers stamped on them. Their famous logo, now replaced by something really boring, goes way back to the beginning of the company in the 1830s. Many of you may remember the rumor mongering in the 1980s which claimed that these were surreptitious satanic symbols, a rumor which was deliberately spread by Amway. Okay, most of you probably aren't old enough to remember that, or Amway, either.

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There is a P & G  plant in Cape Girardeau Missouri.  I remember the satanic or occultic rumors about that logo from when I went to college in Cape in the late 70's / early 80's.

 

Randy

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Edited by - Mopick on 04/18/2011 07:23:10

Ronnie - Posted - 04/18/2011:  07:32:01

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P & G plant here in Jackson as well. Pringles chips made here. The Milan ammunition plant is operated by P &G also.  Here in the so-called  Bible belt a lot of people

probably still consider that logo as something diabolical! 

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Edited by - Ronnie on 04/18/2011 07:36:30

mike gregory - Posted - 04/18/2011:  08:34:49

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A symbol symbolizes whatever the beholder chooses to assign as its meaning.

I recall reading somewhere that the informal American hand gesture of the thumb touching the forefinger, with the remaining fingers outstretched, is given the meaning "OK", a sign of approval.

In America.

But, in some other country ( if I remember what I read all those years ago, it was either the Mideast or southeast Asia), it has something to do with either wanting, or accusing the other person of wanting, anal intercourse.

 

 

Brian T - Posted - 04/18/2011:  09:19:54

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There is one explanation:  To the Haida, everything was dark in the beginning.  Raven had to walk everywhere and kept bumping into things.  Eventually, ever curious Raven learned that all the light was being kept in a bent-wood box by  "the old one who walks everywhere."  With cunning and tricks, Raven found the box and stole all the light.  What we see on the banjo is the result of Raven returning the Moon and Stars to the night sky, having yet to return the Sun.

bluemule_77 - Posted - 04/18/2011:  21:13:17

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Here's my Ome.  The "why" for THIS banjo:  to commemorate the Hale-Bopp comet.  Really!

GSCarson - Posted - 04/19/2011:  04:19:36

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Some of those inlay shapes can be found on the early Pennsylvania (Kentucky) rifles.  I see a lot of similarities between some of those shapes and some of the early banjo inlays.  Go to a museum with early rifles or a shop such as Dixon's that sells reproduction parts and inlays in brass, nickel silver and silver and you will recognize some of those same inlays, they've been around for quite a while 1700's....  The half moon in particular.  I have been working on a banjo with that theme (early rifle style inlays) for a while now that ties some of them together.

Glenn C.