banjoy - Posted - 08/09/2010:  10:18:44

(Moderators -- I hope this is an appropriate category for this inquiry...)

I just noticed that MP3 files I've posted to banjohangout are being dissemniated all over the internet at various sites that offer free MP3 downloads. FOR EXAMPLE:

chemp3.com/download/607928/ban...nk-eastes

A few questions come to mind here. Is this with BHO knowledge and permission? When I posted file here I don't recall giving permission to further disseminate these audio files. It may have been in the fine print. Is all this cool?

I guess what I am reacting to is that these are offered as free downloads outside of banjohangout, apparently with no attribution or credit. These can even be set to ring tones, apparently, without attribution. In this specific example, this is an original tune I wrote, and I sure don't recall giving permission for folks to set this to a ring tone ... so I am not thrilled at all about this.

Comments please? Eric?

Edited by - Bill Rogers on 08/09/2010 10:50:58

JasonL - Posted - 08/09/2010:  10:47:09

It *looks* like a search engine that indexes mp3 files that are available on the internet. They haven't copied the files themselves as they link back to the original files. Although they say that they provide a similar service to Google, they are being disingenuous and possibly parasitic in that they are "deep linking" i.e. linking to just the mp3 file and not to the website itself so there is no context, not much in the way of attribution and Eric pays for server bandwidth without get any advertising money from it.

I'm sure there is a way of stopping this with security settings etc, unfortunately this wasn't my line when I worked in IT.

banjoy - Posted - 08/09/2010:  10:58:42

Yeah Jason, I agree, this looked like a site that farms MP3 files. I could see from the source of the file that it was still parked on BHO servers... There are other examples too. All about the same...

schlange - Posted - 08/09/2010:  12:16:18

Yeah, there are multiple sites out there that do this. At this time I'm not pursuing any efforts to block them, although that may change in the future.

gradelyduck - Posted - 08/09/2010:  12:37:48

I guess this is the same problem that affects the music and video industry in general. Unless your copyright can be protected ( a high priced lawyer could fight your case) it is a case of grinning and bearing it. There is another side; without the web, your music would be heard by a very small minority of the world. I reckon it would be quite a kick to hear a tune that I'd written ringing out on someone's phone.

schlange - Posted - 08/09/2010:  12:46:06

I don't see it as the same problem, because (for me at least) the assumption with Banjo Hangout MP3s is that you're fine with the world downloading what you post. It's not like The Beatles trying to make sure illegal copies of their songs aren't floating around.

If you don't want your MP3s downloaded (just streamed through the jukebox) you can always check the box to remove the download link.

banjoy - Posted - 08/09/2010:  14:05:16

Hey Eric--

In this example, the suppress download feature IS selected. But it doesn't seem to stop this site from downloading it directly from your server anyway. I don't think you caught on yet that this does not use your jukebox. It's a direct link to the MP3 file on your server. So because the MP3 can't be downloaded from BHO, it still can be downloaded from your server from other site no matter what. That ain't cool with me, is that okay with you? My preference only applies to your site, and can be ignored elsewhere?

That's okay with you?

From what I can see, the downloads are direct linked to your server (hangoutstorage.com, which I assume is your domain?) and do not go through your JukeBox at all, which it bypasses..

In addition, this site has their own Terms of Service, which I may not be in agreement with.

Also, nothing is attributed to banjohanout.org. You're okay with that?

From what I can see, the information displayed on screen is being read out of the MP3 file itself. So only because I put my name in the file it even being displayed. Had I not done even that, this would be a completely unattributed MP3 that anyone can download, listen to, whatever.

And, finally, how does this work with your new license agreement? Do you keep up with the downloads of copyrighted ... since apparently all your MP3 files are hotlinked like this ... not just mine?

--Frank

Edited by - banjoy on 08/09/2010 14:14:23

banjoy - Posted - 08/09/2010:  14:18:44

Eric--

On Apache servers there is a feature you can invoke that rejects a request for any document unless that request originated from your server. In other words, the jukebox, originating from your server, woudl play the file (or show a photo or whatever) but other site hotlinking to those file, either directly with a URL or within an HTML document, that does not come from your own domain, is rejected.

Anyway, in my specific case, most of my MP3s are freely downloadable, even my performance of otjher's copyrighted work. Only a few files are suppressed from download on BHO, but no problem, just download them elsewhere...

Maybe take another look Eric.

minstrelmike - Posted - 08/10/2010:  07:07:49

If you post something on the internet, anybody with a connection can read it, listen to it, and link to it.

If you don't want people to read stuff, don't write it.
If you don't want them to hear stuff, don't post it.

If you only want a select few to hear or read stuff, use Facebook and set your privacy up correctly.
Perhaps they have a No Internet option </sarcasm>

/* trying to sop deep-linking is a never-ending battle and it isn't worth going there.
I don't see much difference between posting something for 40,000 of your best friends and then the rest of the billions of folks on the internet accidentally finding it, or even purposefully finding it via search

Define "browse" for me again (as in Internet BROWSER */

schlange - Posted - 08/10/2010:  11:17:39

Songs marked as "Not downloadable" should now be truly hidden from third-party sites like those referenced above. We discovered that we hadn't renamed the files of songs which were already in the archive when we took the new "Not Downloadable" option live, so if those links were already spidered by third-party sites, they would still be valid even after you marked the file.

We've since renamed all of those files (breaking those download links) and set it up so that, if you mark an existing MP3 as "Not Downloadable" it renames the file automatically, so any existing links will no longer work.

banjoy - Posted - 08/23/2010:  12:46:41

Eric--

If these tunes are published through an ASCAP publisher, are you keeping up with these downloads from third-party sources? Or, are you only counting clicks from your own server?

Since this affects your license fees, and fees paid to member artists, a direct reply here would be appreciated. It seems you overlooked that part of my question.

I've deleted my original works from banjohangout. Just trying to get a handle on how you're doing this Eric. The above website I cited accepts, apparently, work only in the public domain and they have a form to go through to report copyrighted works so they can be removed. Even though the link(s) are now broken (I appreciate that, Eric!) I have filed such a complaint with them and further, am asking how they obtained this file for their site. I assume they just crawled your site. But if you have a contractual relationship with them, that would be nice to know.

Many thanks.

Edited by - banjoy on 08/23/2010 12:48:48

schlange - Posted - 08/23/2010:  13:18:44

A contractual relationship with them? By no means!

We don't just count clicks, we count downloads as well for the PROs. So that info is all being tracked.

Hope that answers your questions. Thanks, Frank!

banjoy - Posted - 08/23/2010:  14:28:59

All is cool with me and good in banjo land. Thanks, Eric!

banjoy - Posted - 08/24/2010:  13:35:26

One more quick thought on your solution.

Re-naming the file does break existing links as you indicated. However, the next time those spiders crawl your server which hosts these files, they will simply re-index the renamed files, so nothing really has changed, the problem has not nbeen solved. So after the re-named file is indexed, those sites will still be able to download directly from your server and bypass your jukebox, also bypassing your user's preferences.

Do you have a plan in place to permanently suppress unwanted downloads like this?

To repeat, your solution is temporary, not permanent. Crawling your servers happens all the time, not once. Do you plan to re-name files frequently to keep up?

TWO things you can do, Eric, with no sweat on your end and this takes five minutes to do: FIRST: You can include a robots.txt file on your host server. You currently do not have one. In that file you can tell robots NOT to crawl that server, or directory. SECOND, you can add (or edit an existing) .htaccess files on your Apache server and completely stop file requests that do not originate from your server. In that file you can also specifically ALLOW certain domains (such as iTunes' site) the ability to access those files. These two fixes together would give you total control over which sties can and cannot access your files -- not only MP3s but also images, etc. Your file re-naming solution will not work in the long run, maybe 30 days at best until your server is crawled again.

Edited by - banjoy on 08/24/2010 13:42:15