Tam_Zeb - Posted - 03/14/2010:  05:13:19

---

Can anyone explain the difference between Frailing & Clawhammer darned if I can tell the difference

tonehead - Posted - 03/14/2010:  05:24:52

---

zeppmusic.com/banjo/frvscl.htm

Here's the best explanation I've seen. We've "threaded" that one a few times.

R Buck - Posted - 03/14/2010:  05:39:51

---

More difference in the spelling to the two words. Both describe a method of down picking that can have some differences but those differences seem arbitrary to me.

tombriarhopper - Posted - 03/14/2010:  07:10:41

---

That is it! I will now call what I do "frailhammer." Wait, that doesn't sound too manly, does it? OK, I'll call it "Frank."

fretlessinfortwayne - Posted - 03/14/2010:  07:14:14

---

This is very complicated, so hold onto your seat. You see, one begins with the letter "c" while the other begins with an "f." And there are other letters that are different, but that's probably too much detail.

Chris Via - Posted - 03/14/2010:  07:36:33

---

Here is an example I posted a while back of the differences.
youtube.com/watch?v=egmrCj_gZUg
youtube.com/watch?v=2gTGf50Kmsk

The main difference is the rythym attack, whether your rhythm lick is a brush of 3 or 4 strings, or you attack just the bottom string. Some call it seperating the strings.

---

Edited by - Chris Via on 03/14/2010 07:39:36

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/14/2010:  09:50:52

---

In my mind, there is a difference but I can see where folks don't hear any difference. (Many folks hear no difference between bluegrass and clawhammer, too).

Frailing uses more chord-brushes whereas clawhammer is more notey, playing mostly on the 1st and 5th strings and using lower strings individually with few double stops or chord-brushes. The styles kind of coincide with the difference between clawhammering folk or singing songs vs playing real old-time the Irish way where everyone plays the same lead.

It isn't hard-core (and I'd have hard time arguing with folks who say there is no difference whatsoever). When I sing solo, I use a chordal approach but when I do the breaks in-between, one of them will often be straight clawhammer (in my mind) and will be very notey and almost bluegrass-like except for the rhythm.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 03/14/2010:  10:12:00

---

It is hard to figure out just where on the spectrum I belong! I guess I'm a frailer, but I don't play like Stringbean or Grandpa Jones. I was going with "Clawhammer" for the cool name, but since I do not yet drop-thumb, I might not qualify. Oh dear! ; )
I quite like the term "knock-down", but I think that "thumping" best describes my playing style.
OK, you melodic guys can have Clawhammer to yourselves. Maybe.

Banjo-thumper------and proud of it!

Jim D - Posted - 03/14/2010:  11:14:17

---

I've always felt that any differences between "frailing" and "clawhammer" were more apparent than real.

While I know banjo players who have definitions of each that make sense to them, I don't know many of them who agree on each others' definitions. And, in any case, I'm not sure it makes a difference.

My $0.02

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/14/2010:  11:49:43

---

Without elaborating further definitions, it's my impression that the two terms meant clearly different things in the 1970s, but have increasingly overlapped in meaning ever since. "Frailing," which used to be in common use, has become scarce, as many who play with little or no drop-thumb call their style "clawhammer."

stanger - Posted - 03/14/2010:  12:45:21

---

Bill and I are old school.
For us, the two are simply different styles, just as the 3-finger way of playing has different styles. When I first learned how to drop my thumb off the 5th string onto the other strings, the most common term I heard for the technique was 'drop thumb'. That was in the South during the late 60's, and back then, relatively few of the players I met in N. Carolina and Virginia used the 'clawhammer' term, but I heard it as well.

'Frailing' is an uncommon word outside the South- it's an old slang term for knocking, or more commonly, getting into a fist fight. 'Clawhammer' has a more common connotation- hammering implies forcefulness, and also implies the vertical swinging motion of the right hand. 'Claw' also has a dramatic association.
And everyone knows what a hammer is.

The two terms, like Bill mentioned, started getting fuzzy in the late '70s, but with the generational gap of 20 years, the old slang of the word 'frail' has largely faded, so 'clawhammer' has come into common useage.

I think that the Southern players were much less interested in defining how they played. They just played, and called it whatever seemed to fit. In my travels, I also heard the style called 'knocking', 'rapping', and 'banging'. During the early revival of the 5-string, when New York intellectuals began losing interest in jazz and re-discovering other roots music, there was a great urge to codify everything, especially terminology. If you can't play it, you might as well talk about it, and they sure did talk a lot about the banjo. Since 'frailing' was so esoteric as a word, naturally that was the one most taken to.

The oldest term of all for down-picking is 'stroke', a contraction of 'downstroke'. These days, the only time I hear it much is from the fretless players. Personally, I think it's the best word for the style.

These days, there's another generation coming up that's just as obsessed with who is authentic or not, what word is most authentic, or what banjo is most authentic. The scooped fingerboard is a good example of this- all the really old old-timers I ever saw played with their right hand fingers over the neck unless they intentionally wanted to play the banjo softly. Now, there is a generation of players who have never played the style close to the bridge, so they assume it's always been done the way they learned.

That's the way it's always been with the banjo. Stick with it long enough, and you'll see the circles all turn again.
regards,
stanger

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/14/2010:  13:55:18

---

When I took up banjo in the late 60's, my fondest goal was to be able to do what Pete Seeger called "double thumbing while you're frailing".

I think the the place I heard him use that expression was on the album "Strangers and Cousins" (though I'm no longer sure which album). He was introducing a version of Old Joe Clark, and said he had heard his younger brother Mike play it, and it was so pretty that he asked Mike he was doing. Mike said "Oh it's nothing more than double-thumbing while you're frailing."

Then Pete said, "Well I've talked about that, but I never really learned how to do it. So I took some advice I gave in my own banjo book, and I sat down and practiced." And then he played a lovely drop-thumb clawhammer version of Old Joe Clark.

I'd say the terms are pretty much synonymous, though I personally tend to think of frailing as brushy clawhammer, and clawhammer as unbrushy frailing...same technique...different amount of emphasis on multi-string brushing...which is pretty much what minstrelmike seems to be saying...but that's far from universal usage for those terms.

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/14/2010 13:58:21

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/14/2010:  14:01:35

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stanger

.
These days, there's another generation coming up that's just as obsessed with who is authentic or not, what word is most authentic, or what banjo is most authentic. The scooped fingerboard is a good example of this- all the really old old-timers I ever saw played with their right hand fingers over the neck unless they intentionally wanted to play the banjo softly. Now, there is a generation of players who have never played the style close to the bridge, so they assume it's always been done the way they learned.

---

Am I right that what you meant to say was "all the really old old-timers I ever saw played with their right hand fingers over the HEAD"? Otherwise I don't understand what follows in your posting.

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/14/2010 14:13:21

vernob - Posted - 03/15/2010:  10:12:23

---

WORDS, WORDS, WORDS. Remember that there are no notes to a banjo. You just play it. I can read music but not enough to hurt my playing. Also remember that if you favor "conserving" wilderness areas, you are NOT "conserv-ative" but liberal! Go figure...

stanger - Posted - 03/15/2010:  12:06:45

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

quote:

---

Originally posted by stanger

.
These days, there's another generation coming up that's just as obsessed with who is authentic or not, what word is most authentic, or what banjo is most authentic. The scooped fingerboard is a good example of this- all the really old old-timers I ever saw played with their right hand fingers over the neck unless they intentionally wanted to play the banjo softly. Now, there is a generation of players who have never played the style close to the bridge, so they assume it's always been done the way they learned.

---

Am I right that what you meant to say was "all the really old old-timers I ever saw played with their right hand fingers over the HEAD"? Otherwise I don't understand what follows in your posting.

---

Hi, Marc...
Yup. Their right hand fingers were striking the strings above the head, just below the rim-neck joint. Some, when they wanted to play softly, moved their hand upwards so the fingers struck the strings above the last frets on the neck. None I ever saw had a scooped neck on their banjo, either.

I'm not claiming this was universal- it's only my observation from watching the old guys who lived around the Chesepeake area of Virginia, down the the tri-city area of N. Carolina. I spent a lot of time digging up banjoists while I was in the Navy, stationed in Norfolk. This was back in the mid-late '60s.- Most of them are probably gone now.
regards,
stanger

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/15/2010:  12:19:54

---

"... I personally tend to think of frailing as brushy clawhammer, and clawhammer as unbrushy frailing"

There it is (if it's anything at all) in a nutshell.

Reason I think this way is because I heard the term from Pete Seeger's book. Later on when I heard the term clawhammer, it was about people playing more 'cleaner' instrumental type of stuff instead of chords behind singers.

The old Minstrel tutors distinguished between stroke-style (downstroke) and the new-fangled guitar-style (up-picking with the fingers) so 'stroke' is probably the most comprehensive word but I don't believe I'd feel comfortable telling folks I stroke my banjo.

---

Edited by - minstrelmike on 03/15/2010 12:21:17

fred davis - Posted - 03/15/2010:  12:39:15

---

The difference is so simple It's the 4 note in the C chord C ( F) G

kwfolk1 - Posted - 03/15/2010:  12:46:00

---

I started off calling it frailing, even when I began double-thumbing along with frailing. Then, after hearing Ken Perlman at at house concert at Banjo Bill's place when he was teaching I believe at John Hopkins in Baltimore, I was impressed and lead me to purchase Ken's Melodic Clawhammer Banjo Book, a book I highly recommend. That's when I began differentiating between the two styles. Though related, I tend to call it clawhammer when the playing style is more melodic n nature - fewer fully brush stokes, and frailing when more single string playing is involved.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/15/2010:  12:56:43

---

Seems to me we keep saying the same thing six different ways, here: When your playing includes a lot of multi-string brushing it falls on the frailing end of the spectrum; when it's mostly single notes, it falls on the clawhammer end of the spectrum.

Precisely where the dividing line between the two ends of the spectrum may be is a mystery better left to theologians than banjo pickers...even downpickers!

However the basic movement of the hand and all the techniques associated with it are identical: It's just that frailers brush a lot, and clawhammerers - not so much. (Now there's a word for ya: "clawhammerer"!)

The real question is: Who cares what you call it? Just play it already!

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/15/2010 13:02:23

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/15/2010:  13:00:08

---

Just play it already.

Marc's dead-on.

Until we hear it, we can't tell you you're doing it wrong.
Makes it hard to find anything to talk about then ;-)

fretlessinfortwayne - Posted - 03/16/2010:  12:41:32

---

Now that we got that settled, what's the difference between a cougar, a puma and a mountain lion?

---

Edited by - fretlessinfortwayne on 03/16/2010 12:42:13

banjo bill-e - Posted - 03/16/2010:  13:27:32

---

One is a cat, one is a shoe, and one is a middle-aged woman with too much time on her hands.

janolov - Posted - 03/16/2010:  13:41:18

---

I think that we should keep in mind that "clawhammer" seems to be relatively new terms, that wasn't used very commonly before the 80's or 90's.

Pete Seeger used the term frailing in his book, I think the first edition was in the early 50's (I have the 3rd edition from 1962). He also tells he have heard it be called "beating", "rapping" and "framing". "Clawhammer" isn't even mentioned.

In Art Rosenabum's Old-Time Mountain Banjo from 1968 he is talking about a great varity Down-Picking styles, and mentions the terms "clawhammer", "drop thumb", "frailing", "knocking", knock-down", "beating", "rapping", "flyin' hand", "framming". Clawhammer is just one of many other terms.

In New Lost City Rambler's Song Book from 1964 John Cohen describes Old-Time styles for fiddle, banjo, guitar. He says that the picking down is variously called "frailing", "claw-hammer" (C. Ashley), "clubbing" (Roscoe Holcomb), "rapping" (Hobart Smith), "flailing", "thrashing", "knock-down", "drop-thumb" and "down-picking". Interesting is the "claw-hammer" is connected to Clarence Ashely - I would characterize his style as brushing!

In Peggy Seeger's The five-string Banjo American Folk Styles from 1960 (I have the 1963 edition)she describes several styles, one of them called just "frailing".

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/16/2010:  15:09:20

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

I think that we should keep in mind that "clawhammer" seems to be relatively new terms, that wasn't used very commonly before the 80's or 90's.

Pete Seeger used the term frailing in his book, I think the first edition was in the early 50's (I have the 3rd edition from 1962). He also tells he have heard it be called "beating", "rapping" and "framing". "Clawhammer" isn't even mentioned.

In Art Rosenabum's Old-Time Mountain Banjo from 1968 he is talking about a great varity Down-Picking styles, and mentions the terms "clawhammer", "drop thumb", "frailing", "knocking", knock-down", "beating", "rapping", "flyin' hand", "framming". Clawhammer is just one of many other terms.

In New Lost City Rambler's Song Book from 1964 John Cohen describes Old-Time styles for fiddle, banjo, guitar. He says that the picking down is variously called "frailing", "claw-hammer" (C. Ashley), "clubbing" (Roscoe Holcomb), "rapping" (Hobart Smith), "flailing", "thrashing", "knock-down", "drop-thumb" and "down-picking". Interesting is the "claw-hammer" is connected to Clarence Ashely - I would characterize his style as brushing!

In Peggy Seeger's The five-string Banjo American Folk Styles from 1960 (I have the 1963 edition)she describes several styles, one of them called just "frailing".

---

I think it's "John Burke's Book of Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo: Written in tabulature form for Clawhammer style with diverse tunings" of 1968*, that promulgated the use of the term Clawhammer for the way of playing that he described as follows: "In the clawhammer style the thumb is used to get extra turns and twists in the melody, organizing it into compact melodic "runs"' and which he calls "a relatively modern style". If one looks through his tabs, there are very, very few multi-string brushes noted.

I think the term clawhammer style has come to mean "that way of playing that appears in the John Burke book."

(*I think I got my copy that year, or very close to it. The price on the cover is $2.95)

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/16/2010 15:19:53

banjopogo - Posted - 03/16/2010:  21:55:32

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tam_Zeb

Can anyone explain the difference between Frailing & Clawhammer darned if I can tell the difference

---

Pete Seeger was the first one to popularize 5-string among city folks, and for a long time his banjo book was the only game in town.
He played with the "bump-ditty" pattern and hammer-ons and pull-offs.
So frailing became associated with that style.

Then along came John Burke with a melodic drop-thumb book in about 1971 or 72.
(edit- correction- book came along in 1968 and was probably hitting it's stride in popularity about 1971 or 72)
He called his style clawhammer.

So in the '70s after that we associated "clawhammer" with drop-thumb,
and "frailing" with bump-ditty style.

While some people still make that distinction, it seems that the term frailing is no where near as popular or even as well understood as it was in the 1970s.

I think it's because "clawhammer" as a term has become well enough known that outsiders (especially Bluegrass people or music store employees) are aware of the down-picking style and associate it with that term... whether or not it's bump-ditty or drop thumb.

There may be some word association thing going on.

1. clawhammer is kind of descriptive- you put your hand in a claw, and hammer on the strings (sort of)- and that description is equally true whether you bump-ditty or drop-thumb.
2. Outsiders don't see that much of a difference between bump-ditty and drop-thumb-
it's the same downward motion with the nails, and similar use of the thumb, and basically the same repertoire. Often it's outsiders that name a group of people, or make the name stick.
3. clawhammer is also used for a common tool, and so it sounds STRONG and familiar.
4. frailing sounds like the word "frail" which means "weak",
and "flailing" which sounds wild and sloppy!!!

Weak, wild, and sloppy are not good associations... so I think the term frailing is getting neglected.

---

Edited by - banjopogo on 03/17/2010 22:12:18

brokenstrings - Posted - 03/16/2010:  22:01:20

---

If I remember right, Pete Seeger also uses "double-thumbing" and "drop-thumbing" interchangeably, which, as I understand it, ain't right.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/16/2010:  22:20:57

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopogo

Then along came John Burke with a melodic drop-thumb book in about 1971 or 72.
He called his style clawhammer.

---

As I noted in the post just above yours, "John Burke's Book of Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo: Written in tabulature form for Clawhammer style with diverse tunings" came out in 1968, at least according to the date in my copy. I'm pretty sure that's when I bought it too.

I suspect that Ken Perlman's adoption of the term thereafter for his books probably was very influential in making it the customary accepted terminology.

I think it's interesting that John Burke points out that it's a relatively recent style. More than 40 years later, a lot of people seem to have lost sight of that.

And banjopogo, I think your analysis of why "clawhammer" is a more attractive term than "frail" is right on the money! I remember immediately adopting it when I encountered it...even though I really was a "frailer" at the time (and barely, at that). It just seemed like a waaay cooler name!

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/16/2010 22:29:40

Dennis Ott - Posted - 03/16/2010:  22:33:22

---

Yeah, double and drop thumb are two different things as I know it as well. It seems as if some are saying that "clawhammer" has no (or little) drop thumbs?? Would that make "frailing" another term for a whole bunch of double thumbing? Did someone already say that?

Beware of the mountain lions!!

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/16/2010:  23:02:50

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dennis Ott

Yeah, double and drop thumb are two different things as I know it as well. It seems as if some are saying that "clawhammer" has no (or little) drop thumbs?? Would that make "frailing" another term for a whole bunch of double thumbing? Did someone already say that?

Beware of the mountain lions!!

---

Clawhammer is full of drop thumb. It's a defining characteristic of the style.

What people have been saying is that clawhammer has little or no brushing across multiple strings...which is something completely different than drop-thumbing.

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/16/2010 23:06:45

Basic Strum - Posted - 03/17/2010:  04:44:58

---

In addition to being an expert banjoist, few people have dedicated themselves more completely than John Cohen to getting out in the field and recording, filming and preserving musical techniques and traditions. When he says the terms "frailing" and "claw-hammer" both describe the same thing, well, that's all I need to know. Bill

kwfolk1 - Posted - 03/17/2010:  16:57:53

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Basic Strum

In addition to being an expert banjoist, few people have dedicated themselves more completely than John Cohen to getting out in the field and recording, filming and preserving musical techniques and traditions. When he says the terms "frailing" and "claw-hammer" both describe the same thing, well, that's all I need to know. Bill

---

That sounds about right to me.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/17/2010:  20:26:08

---

Another thing, most veteran players can (and at times do) play a completely "clean" bum-ditty stroke with no multiple-string brush at all. The brush stroke is there, but it only strikes one string.

banjopogo - Posted - 03/17/2010:  22:08:54

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopogo

Then along came John Burke with a melodic drop-thumb book in about 1971 or 72.
He called his style clawhammer.

---

As I noted in the post just above yours, "John Burke's Book of Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo: Written in tabulature form for Clawhammer style with diverse tunings" came out in 1968, at least according to the date in my copy. I'm pretty sure that's when I bought it too.

I suspect that Ken Perlman's adoption of the term thereafter for his books probably was very influential in making it the customary accepted terminology.

I think it's interesting that John Burke points out that it's a relatively recent style. More than 40 years later, a lot of people seem to have lost sight of that.

And banjopogo, I think your analysis of why "clawhammer" is a more attractive term than "frail" is right on the money! I remember immediately adopting it when I encountered it...even though I really was a "frailer" at the time (and barely, at that). It just seemed like a waaay cooler name!

---

Touche-
my John Burke book is long gone, and I'd assumed that it had just been published when I bought it.

Yeah... one thing I've notice regarding language.
Trendiness aka fashion beats out accuracy nearly every time!!!

Thing is, MELODIC clawhammer is indeed a relatively new style.
However, what I call "rhythmic drop thumb" is not. The technique is essentially the same, except that the drop thumbs were on open strings that weren't melody notes and acted as an extra pulsing drone note. (or technically "pedal" note.)
Melodic drop thumb is really only practical on a fretted banjo-
rhythmic use of drop thumb is quite doable on a fretless since the drop thumb notes are usually open strings.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/17/2010:  23:15:12

---

I think the term "clawhammer" for downstroke banjo playing was popularized by the County Records "Clawhammer Banjo" series, the first record of which came out in 1965. Burke might well have taken his cue from that. The styles on those records range from playing with a heavy brush little removed from basic bum-ditty to Round Peak style, suggesting that "clawhammer" is not confined to one downpicking approach.

Deering_Dude - Posted - 03/18/2010:  06:26:12

---

As a side note, "frail" (verb) appears to be etymologically related to the verb "flail." As you may know, "L", "R", and "N" are somewhat interchangeable as a language/dialect progresses over time (e.g. colonel). I have a friend at Catholic University who has actually blogged on this banjo verb.

ralphriver.blogspot.com/2005/0...ling.html

brummeister1 - Posted - 05/21/2010:  18:05:59

---

Seriously? I think I'm gonna start a thread titled " COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUMPING AND HOPPING" hahaha

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/22/2010:  22:22:42

---

The problem with defining the two terms is that there are hundreds of definitions for each, and there are dozens of other words - Frammin, Flaillin, Hammerclaw, etc

It is all downstroke and it all is more or less meaningless.

I prefer the word Clawhammer because it has a sort of built in demo of what one does.

I use terms like "The Frail" to explain the downstroke part of the technique. I also call the frailing finger "The Frailer" or "The Frail Finger" to avoid calling it I, M, Index, Middle, Pointer, Social, or any other term that might come up in impolite conversation.

For me there has never been a difference between dropping the thumb and not dropping the thumb - some would say that is the difference between frailing and clawhammer. Some say filling in the half beat after the Bum is the difference. I just call using that Bum Did-dy thing for entire tunes "boring" and do my best to show people more interesting ways to play. Some people attack me for dissing their "unique style" but I have nothing against their choice, I just find it boring. Consequently I teach people how to do "interesting" banjo and let them call it anything they like.
That is why there is no mention of Frailing or Clawhammer in the title of my book - Rocket Science Banjo. I could have called it Rocket Science Frailing, Or Rocket Science Clawhammer, but I didn't want to get involved in the argument that whirls around the terms. Ken Perlman made the mistake of calling an early book "Melodic Clawhammer Banjo" and has had people condemning his books (without even reading their way through the text) ever since. He has the best instruction method - bar none - for modern downstroke playing. But all sorts of people prefer to "pick a side" in these arguments without an answer, and they would rather condemn his books than get the good out of them.

I avoided that problem but immediately found out that there are people who would rather argue about the title than read the book, or condemn a perfectly good and common technique I show because it "violates" the correctness of the way they learned. "That's not the way I learned" they cry. So what. It is the way I teach and lik every teacher I have a style. Every teacher also has a unique way of working with students. I have mine, and no amount of "It ain't rocket science, Dude" from people who have read nothing but the title is going to change my way now (I start collecting Social Security this summer).

There are a number of banjo methods around, and innumerable teachers. What they call the style is unimportant - it is how well they teach you to do what they do that counts. Instead of asking players what they call it, ask "How'd you do that, man. I really want to know."

jasonbeers - Posted - 05/23/2010:  06:33:24

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Seems to me we keep saying the same thing six different ways, here: When your playing includes a lot of multi-string brushing it falls on the frailing end of the spectrum; when it's mostly single notes, it falls on the clawhammer end of the spectrum.

Precisely where the dividing line between the two ends of the spectrum may be is a mystery better left to theologians than banjo pickers...even downpickers!

However the basic movement of the hand and all the techniques associated with it are identical: It's just that frailers brush a lot, and clawhammerers - not so much. (Now there's a word for ya: "clawhammerer"!)

The real question is: Who cares what you call it? Just play it already!

---

Lots of good stuff in that post.