trick420 - Posted - 02/25/2010:  10:42:39

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I wonder what that bridge would sound like on an open back with some Nylguts and a no-knot tailpiece...

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/25/2010:  11:06:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by trick420

I wonder what that bridge would sound like on an open back with some Nylguts and a no-knot tailpiece...

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Based on what I think I've learned so far, the banjo would definitely sound different, no matter how it was configured. The shape of the notes, when using this bridge, are quite a bit different than the shape of notes produced by banjos, using conventional style bridges.

As far as I can tell, the original design philosophy of this bridge was that it be able to respond to the natural movement of the banjo head when a string is plucked on the banjo. Conventional bridges use more of a "brute force" approach where this bridge is designed for finesse. Just MHO at this stage.

Jerry

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/26/2010:  18:43:01

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Today, Art and I went over to my friend's office and, on his CAD system, he re-sized & re-proportioned our prototype based on what I think we learned with the first 2. After he made the drawing, one of his engineers cut two more samples for us to try. These are what the pieces look like before glue-up. A little Mike Gregoryish if you ask me. I glued them up with hope of finishing them in the next few day so that we can test them:

Gomer - Posted - 02/27/2010:  09:13:34

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Mssrs. Bart and Jerry: Good Day to you both. I have some concern related to products liability potential. I see that the points have been rounded on the "tusk" portion of the bridge. I am thinking that if a person accidentally hit that bridge the wrong way that the bridge might snap over and cut off a finger. If you watch Seeger play, you never see his little finger. I don't pretend to know anything about this, but maybe Pete Seeger does. I would caution you to proceed with care. There are already too many players who have lost body parts to the banjo. Do we really want more?

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Edited by - Gomer on 02/27/2010 09:14:30

Roll Player - Posted - 02/27/2010:  13:32:56

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Gomer, not to worry - that stuff is strong. On the prototypes I've played, the edges are well-rounded (unlike me). I was not in the slightest danger of losing a little finger , but maybe Jerry should have prospective purchasers sign a liability waiver. The larger question is whether we banjo players should have our audiences sign a waiver... also would advise you to be careful of oral damage while your tongue is so firmly lodged in your cheek!

Gomer - Posted - 02/27/2010:  16:49:52

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Thanks for the warning Art. In point of fact, I had my lower left wisdom tooth extracted for exactly that reason.

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/27/2010:  18:01:37

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Since we're on the topic of injuries. This morning, while I was cutting the new prototypes down to final height, I discovered that a belt sander will propel a PC board banjo bridge with enough force and velocity to penetrate several layers of skin which, if not attended to, will result in profuse bleeding of the affected skin area.

When it first happened, I didn't know that I had been injured and was more concerned about the bridge as it appeared to have exploded and the parts got lodged in belt sander. It was only after I had extricated the bridge from the machine, finding it undamaged, that I noticed that as it was being propelled by the sander, it removed some bits from the thumb on my picking hand. This afternoon I made another discovery. That was that I can still play my banjo with a large bandage on my thumb.

I never thought, when I decided to try to learn the banjo, that my knowledge base would expand so much.

Gomer - Posted - 02/27/2010:  21:48:47

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I warned you Jerry!

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/28/2010:  03:22:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gomer

I warned you Jerry!

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Yeah Tom, I know, but I have to carry on a family tradition....that is....following in my children's footsteps, going through life, learning everything the hard way. At least, this morning, even though there is still a bit of swelling, most of the pain is gone. That, plus it looks like all the bits of my thumb that are missing, will actually grow back, including the finger print.

bnjojo62 - Posted - 02/28/2010:  06:51:25

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yeah those belt sanders can throw a pretty good fastball sometimes, as I have learned over the years.

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/28/2010:  07:48:25

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Well, friends, I tried one of the new prototypes and I think we're there. I'll have to wait until I can get together again with Art, but my initial thoughts, after playing one of these latest bridges, is that I finally got the dimensions and weight right on this one. I used my bride as a guinea pig and ask her, in a blind test, to compare what she heard with the Seeger style bridge with one of my Spillway Dam bridges made from Maple with a Purpleheart cap. In both cases, she said they were very good, with good low end but the Seeger bridge had a lot more "bite", if I can use that term on a public forum.

The note shapes, as best I can tell with my ears, are about the same as with the earlier prototypes, but with the new dimensions, there is better balance and these do not exhibit the "evil" qualities, up the neck like their lighter, smaller predecessors. They also have better note decay and sustain characteristics than the first bridge that I made by hand and the one that we used to make the test recordings.

Stability wise and structure wise, these things are almost bullet proof. They won't move around and I doubt they would ever sag, no matter how loose the head was on a banjo on which they were mounted. I think the neatest thing about this bridge design is that you could get a wide range of sound characteristics from any banjo, based on how tight or loose you might want to run your setup.

I'll have some final thoughts, after Art & I have had time to go over this one together.

Later,
Jerry

xnavyguy - Posted - 03/03/2010:  16:50:09

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Art was in Austin today and had a chance to stop by for a few minutes. I've had one of the latest prototypes mounted on my Douglas Fir modified Helix (tm) style rim with a 1/4" brass tone hoop. This is the bridge that nearly took my thumb off and lodged in the housing of my belt sander. It's .3 grams lighter than it should be because the sander was still running when I lost control of it. This is a photo of the bridge on my banjo:



These bridges deliver an amazing amount of string energy to the banjo head. Art and I have been able to pretty much confirm everything that Bart Veerman said about the bridge in his BNL article. If you haven't had a chance to read Bart's article, this link should take you to it:
banjobridge.com/stu.htm
This bridge did not, physically, turn my banjo into a Stelling because it only weighs 7 lbs, however the response, tone, & volume are very Stellingesque, if I can use that word.

I guess the bottom line here, at least for now, is that the new dimensions & weight of this 3rd round of prototypes is a winner. I'm going to be out of town for the next 4 days, but I gave Art the other #3 prototype to take home with him. Knowing him, I expect he will run it through its paces, using his Fender Artist. When he does, he will probably take the time to post his thoughts.

See Ya' Soon,
Jerry

Roll Player - Posted - 03/04/2010:  09:22:29

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I haven't yet had a chance to install the Seeger bridge prototype on my Fender Artist yet, but I should get to it this afternoon and I'll let everyone know what I find. I can confirm what Jerry said about what the bridge did when installed on his 7 pound banjo. That thing can now "peel paint," as they say. The volume has gotten a big boost and the midrange is richer, without any loss at the low end. Note separation is very good too. It definitely moved in the direction of a Stelling-type sound. More to come...

As promised, here is what I found this afternoon when I put the Seeger-style bride on my Artist. It did a lot of the same things to my banjo as it did to Jerry's - more volume was added to an already powerful banjo along with richer mids. There was no loss of note separation or bass. All of this is pretty much in line with what Jerry said above. I did adjust my hand position slightly to get the most out of this bridge and I suspect that a few setup adjustments might get even more out of it. It also worked very well for clawhammer.

Still, I'm not sure that I prefer this bridge to Jerry's Hybridge Spillway Dam that I had on there. They're two distinctly different sounds, each with its own advantages.

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Edited by - Roll Player on 03/04/2010 16:03:43

xnavyguy - Posted - 03/11/2010:  14:43:17

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This post is for those of you who sent me a PM requesting one of these bridges. Today I sent a bulk email to all of you so you need to check your email in box. If my email isn't in your in box, check your spam folder, just in case your email program thinks my message is junk mail.

Gomer - Posted - 03/12/2010:  08:01:20

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Although not a collaborator on this project, I can see that a grteat deal of thought went into it. as an "auslander" looking in, I can see that the tangs might well act as ready levers for quick removal in the event of a nuclear war.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/12/2010:  08:25:58

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Can this bridge design be made as a compensated (stepped) bridge...or would that be way too complicated?

Roll Player - Posted - 03/12/2010:  08:35:26

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Having seen a couple of them being made, I'd say compensating them would make it way too complicated. You'd have to use much thicker circuit board for the string support piece and then compensate by hand, and the extra mass might mess up the tone. If compensation is that much of an issue, you could compensate the nut instead, a la Stelling.

xnavyguy - Posted - 03/12/2010:  10:45:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Can this bridge design be made as a compensated (stepped) bridge...or would that be way too complicated?

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Believe it or not, I actually thought about that concept, and thought if you radiused the top, the radius could serve to lengthen the middle string adding a slight amount of compensation.

The physical properties of these things are pretty amazing. Vertically they are extremely stiff but are flexible enough, at the four corners, that the supports are actually able to track the movement of the banjo head while it is in motion. How flexible they are is a function of the length of the arms and the width of the space between them and the width of the feet. They're kind of fun to play with, off the banjo.

xnavyguy - Posted - 03/18/2010:  12:43:45

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Had a little time on my hands this morning so I thought I would do a bit more spearminting with one of the last two bridges that I built.

For all of our earlier experiments, we tried these things on our test banjos, without changing the setup on the banjos which are, for the most part, set up pretty tight for Scruggs style 3 finger bluegrass picking. This morning I installed the Seeger style bridge on my Fender FB-58 which is not a true masterclone but it is the closest thing that I have. The head tap note WAS somewhere between concert G and G#. I played it for awhile to get use to the sound & response and then loosened all the bracket nuts a full 1/3 turn, hoping to get the head flexibility to a closer match to the bridge flexibility. This particular banjo has a tone ring that has a very sharp, knifelike, top on it so it is going to take awhile for the head to loosen. I've been playing the snot out of it since I loosened the nuts but have only managed to get the head tap note down to barely under a concert G, even though the nuts are pretty loose. I think I'm going to have to get the hair dryer out and do a bit of massaging on this thing to get it to release a little.

Early on, just from the amount it has already loosened, I think it's moving in the right direction. The banjo is very responsive and the notes are beginning to develope a sort of sweet quality, especially when the strings are picked very lightly. Art is coming over tomorrow evening for some band practice so I should have this thing settled down by the time he gets here so we can evaluate whether or not these changes are for the better or worse.

Stay tuned.

mike gregory - Posted - 03/18/2010:  20:14:29

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Marc N.
Wild guess:
You might- just might- be able to cut out a good-sized notch, epoxy a chunk of material on the back, and put the compensating notch in that.

blindsniper - Posted - 03/18/2010:  21:29:41

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Just a thought. The Pete Seeger bridge was made from PCB. Was PCB chosen for its sound properties or for its availability. Surely there are modern polymers that will be just as good, or perhaps, even better?

xnavyguy - Posted - 03/19/2010:  05:30:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by blindsniper

Just a thought. The Pete Seeger bridge was made from PCB. Was PCB chosen for its sound properties or for its availability. Surely there are modern polymers that will be just as good, or perhaps, even better?

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According to Stu Jamieson, the engineer/banjo player that built Pete's bridge, the best bridge material has to be anisotropic, meaning it has no directional properties like wood. That is the reason he chose PCB material. That, plus it's strength to weight and ability to resist string abrasion.

This bridge design, due to it's limited contact area and ability to flex when the head flexes, is able to conserve string energy better than a stiffer, less compliant conventional bridge.

xnavyguy - Posted - 03/20/2010:  14:46:28

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Art came over last night and played my FB-58 during our 2 hour practice session. The head tension on the banjo had finally settled down to around a concert F#. The note shape, using the Jamieson bridge, is definitely different than what you get from any other bridge. Based on what we heard last night with the Fender FB-58, it seems to be an excellent bridge to use in a loose setup situation. That said, Art seemed to think, for his playing style, that the head should have been a little tighter, however, when I was playing the banjo, he thought the head tension was just right for my playing style. That just shows to go you that each of us are a little different in the kinds of tone we get from our machines and the variabilities of how we pick and the kinds of picks we use, can certainly make a difference in the sound.

My observations, from the other side of the banjo, playing my guitar, with 3 other musicians, was that the Fender wasn't projecting as much as what I normally hear when I play with Art. Art likes his setup so that his notes are able to pierce, for want of a better word, into the mix, while I tend to like things a little more mellow.

Unless anybody has any more questions, that's about all I can think of for now.

Thanks for listening,
Jerry

tom elder - Posted - 03/24/2010:  17:29:21

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roger sminoff states guitar strings work the bridge front to back instead of side to side.That being said i would like to try one on a john hartford tuned bango ,with big strings.

xnavyguy - Posted - 03/24/2010:  18:30:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by tom elder

roger sminoff states guitar strings work the bridge front to back instead of side to side.That being said i would like to try one on a john hartford tuned bango ,with big strings.

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I only have plans to make enough for the folks that responded when I first started this thread. I can put you on the list, in case I have any extras, else I can send you the plans so you can build your own. Send me a PM if you're still interested.

Jerry

tom elder - Posted - 03/25/2010:  05:21:44

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Jerry Thanks for the offer, i can guestimate the specs. when said task is attempted. Tom

xnavyguy - Posted - 04/01/2010:  05:52:22

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Between last Friday & Monday, I was able to send out all the completed bridges and bridge kits to those who had requested them. They're all gone and I don't plan to make any more but if anyone else is interested in having their own, you can send me a PM and I will be happy to email you a set of the plans that I used for reference in building these things.

I've started to get some feedback from a few who have managed to build their kits and install them on a banjo. These are the two comments that I've received so far:

"Seems like it has better notes on the higher pitched strings, and cleaner separation, but looses some on the bass side. I've only had it one one banjo, and will try it on others, before making the final judgement. Sure is a strange looking little bird lol."

"Overall, I'm satisfied with it. I would love to tell you that the banjo sounds better or louder or whatever, but all I can say is it sounds as good as it did with the wooden bridge. Maybe a little cleaner, crisper, but that's purely subjective."

Maybe, at some point, we or I can start another thread where those who took part in this project can share their experiences with this bridge in more detail.

TonyS - Posted - 04/02/2010:  12:17:04

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ex-coastie here - seems I'm the last to get the word!
Anyway, as a long neck, Seeger style player, could you please let me know if anyone backs out, or doesn't pay up and take that extra one off your hands - any oher leads (besides making my own) please let me know?
Thanks
BM1

Stringsinger - Posted - 04/02/2010:  13:21:52

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I am really interested in acquiring one of these bridges also. I am a Seeger-style player and own a Gibson RB175 longneck model. (I have a Rich and Taylor tone ring in it).

xnavyguy - Posted - 04/02/2010:  13:33:11

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I cut out 20 of those bridges. They are either gone or promised. Some got more than one. Maybe one of the other recipients would be willing to part with theirs after they've had a chance to try them out. The only plans I have, with respect to this project, is to contact a PC board house to find out what it might cost to have these things cut out in quantity, not that there would be that much demand for them, but to satisfy my curiosity.

xnavyguy - Posted - 04/03/2010:  05:49:20

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Latest comments from another recipient of one of the Jamieson bridges:

The first impression--it packs a surprising punch for its size and weight!