Tuneager - Posted - 02/04/2010:  21:20:08

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I am re-posting the link to the 1992 video and the 1992 NY Times Letter to place this thread and it's comments back into context. After reading the NY Times Letter from 1992 by Marty Cutler, it simply resonated a chord in me as to all the great players who were attempting Jazz before that 1992 letter was written, or that video recorded, and it does disappoint me that so many great players haven't gotten the exposure for their efforts in Jazz directions before or since. I have my own memories of that time too. My apologies to Marc Horowitz, my ignorance of his influence, hastily reading posts, and misplacing his name by thinking of the writer David Horowitz and/or pianist Vladimir Horowitz.

Bela Fleck video from 1992
banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...p?id=4093

NY Times 1992 Letter
nytimes.com/1992/06/28/arts/l-...22&st=cse

Marty explained that his letter was printed and edited differently than what he wrote. The entire unedited letter would've probably explained his opinion better, as he does in later posts in this thread, but it's still there on the internet as it stands.

So many jazz attempts before 1992, 4-string players aside, such as Larry McNeely (Slipped Disc), Vic Jordan (El Cumbanchero), Bill Knopf (lots of Jazz and Ragtime), Alan Munde, Marty Cutler, Gordon Stone (Scrapple from the Apple), Tony Trischka, Bill Keith, Bobby Thompson (Take 5), Fred Geiger, Pat Cloud, and probably many others that I am forgetting at the moment.

There's probably lots of others who could mention Jazz efforts that were going on back in that time, as has been done somewhat in the postings that follow. My own comments and perceptions of an edited NY Times Letter led this thread down a road which was the antithesis of music, my apologies to those who took offense.

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Edited by - Texasbanjo on 03/08/2010 15:37:59

BanjoJohnDavid - Posted - 02/04/2010:  21:46:07

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That quote is 18 years old. It sounds like his comment was taken out of context.

CharlieVickers - Posted - 02/04/2010:  22:34:30

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I am new to the banjo but I have already sensed that there is a certain element in the "banjo culture" that would go out of their way to discredit Bela Fleck. Is it just because he doesn't devote all his time to bluegrass? I've seen several comments on the web that seems to point in that direction. As someone new to this instrument I think it is phenominal what Bela does with the banjo. He is one of the reasons I am so interested in learning to play this wonderful instrument. I believe he brings much credibility to this instrument and all who play it. Certainly he has broadened that group of music lovers who now include the banjo as one of their favorite instruments and see its potential with all types of music. I look forward to seeing his current African tour in March in Roanoke, Va. I applaud Bela for recognizing the African roots of the banjo and for having the foresight to bring what he found in Africa to the American audience. This is not the "bluegrass hut", it is the "banjohut".......which lends itself to a much broader spectrum of music.

banjo1930 - Posted - 02/05/2010:  00:00:56

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It must have been taken out of context. Marty Cutler is also an amazing banjo player, and I am sure he wasn't trying to discredit Bela Fleck.

Banjowen - Posted - 02/05/2010:  01:11:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by CharlieVickers

I am new to the banjo but I have already sensed that there is a certain element in the "banjo culture" that would go out of their way to discredit Bela Fleck. Is it just because he doesn't devote all his time to bluegrass? I've seen several comments on the web that seems to point in that direction. As someone new to this instrument I think it is phenominal what Bela does with the banjo. He is one of the reasons I am so interested in learning to play this wonderful instrument. I believe he brings much credibility to this instrument and all who play it. Certainly he has broadened that group of music lovers who now include the banjo as one of their favorite instruments and see its potential with all types of music. I look forward to seeing his current African tour in March in Roanoke, Va. I applaud Bela for recognizing the African roots of the banjo and for having the foresight to bring what he found in Africa to the American audience. This is not the "bluegrass hut", it is the "banjohut".......which lends itself to a much broader spectrum of music.

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I completely agree, so many people think that a 5-string banjo was invented solely for playing bluegrass on, I'm afraid if thats all you are meant to play on them I wouldn't have bothered buying one,...and yes this is the "BANJO" Hangout and not the "BLUEGRASS" Hangout.

vtbanjoplayer - Posted - 02/05/2010:  04:36:20

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People are very often trying to discredit Bela for not playing bluegrass, WTF?? This man is one of the most talented banjo players on the planet, and just because he does'nt devote all of his time to playing bluegrass that makes him an inferior player? Give me a break. If any of you who say he does'nt play bluegrass you need to look a little further into his collection of recordings. On his "Daybreak" album and the album "The bluegrass sessions:Tales from the acoustic planet volume 2" there are some of the most amazing bluegrass tunes to come off a banjo. Sure, all the traditional bluegrassers are what most people think about when the banjo comes to mind, but that does not mean that is the only way to play. To all the Bela haters out there open your mind and heart to one single person and his playing style that has most likely put a banjo in the hands of countless numbers of players out there. Don't be a "player hater", you need to embrace what he has done for the wonderful instrument that we all love: the banjo. Music is art, just because you don't understand it, does not mean it is not a wonderful thing. If you dislike Bela and his style, curb your curiosity every time you are on "You tube" or any other site where you can see video and don't click on his video and don't listen to his music. But as musicians you should be able to put your dislike of him aside and recognize that he has brought an amazing amount of recognition to the banjo and the simple fact that he is an amazing player.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  05:03:32

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjo1930

It must have been taken out of context. Marty Cutler is also an amazing banjo player, and I am sure he wasn't trying to discredit Bela Fleck.

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You are quite right. If Béla actually said that, I bet he wishes he hadn’t, and if words were put into his mouth (always possible in print media), I reckon he wishes he could have seen and quashed that misquote before it went to print. Béla knows better and he credits people quite generously. I know because I’ve worked with him and he credited me for capturing a live recording of him.

Marty and Béla are friends and I've seen them together – getting on famously, with no bitterness or rivalry. I even recorded them both on the same night in a smoky back room in an old Greenwich Village speakeasy.

This is “in-family” stuff and a tempest in a teapot, because local banjo gods like Marc Horowitz and Tony Trischka were showing Béla weird scales and jazzy licks back when he was a shy teenager; in fact, banjoist Marc Horowitz – Béla’s mentor before Tony – used to indulge in all kinds of off-the-wall licks and jazzy scales. (He’s reformed and plays old-time music now, but with great flair and imagination I might add.)

He would have shown Béla stuff from Tony Trischka, Roger Sprung (who coined the term “progressive bluegrass” in 1963), Bill Keith, Bobby Thompson, Jack Hicks, Alan Munde, Marty Cutler, himself et al., including crawling-up-the-neck diminished passages, blues and jazz licks, everything that was around at the time. New York banjoists were doing it all back then – taking all kinds of chances.

All these guys had monstrous chops and many were probably iconoclastic by parochial bluegrass standards. They all had great senses of humor, a wealth of musical ideals, would try anything (new) that they could think of, and that’s the rich, wildly eclectic banjo environment where Béla cut his eyeteeth. Béla’s a New York player from day one.

Marc did something infinitely more important though, and I got this from Marc himself; he gave a meandering teenage Béla Fleck a course in FOGGY MOUNTAIN BANJO album tunes, ‘Little Darlin’ Pal of Mine’, ‘Groundspeed’, ‘Fireball Mail’ – yup, all of it – in order to ground him in a Scruggs right hand, which he wasn’t paying attention to and didn’t have yet .

Béla wanted Marc to show him all the cool stuff Tony Trischka stuff especially, and Marc did his best to expose him to every wild banjo lick that he could, be he focused Béla on Scruggs, which nobody had done up until that point. Béla, now exposed to so many banjo styles and licks by Horowitz, went onto get lessons with Tony in Brooklyn.

Tony was state-of-the-art and was even getting great ideas and licks from Marty Cutler, a melodic-Scruggs banjoist with a wicked imagination. These guys were all good friends and Béla had the best banjo teachers on the planet from the time he was in high school.

So I see Marty’s point and understand why he stuck his neck out. It’s very old news now, but he was righteous and fair to send a letter to the New York Times editor, because he personally knew about Béla’s training (knew him) from a very young age. Marty would have known that Béla "knew better" than to make a fuzzy statement like that and actually mean it to be true.

That’s my take on it, knowing all these characters. I'm an old New Yorker (younger than these guys by a few years – haha) and New Yorkers like to take each other to task for saying unthinking or boneheaded things, even by mistake. Good for Marty for putting things in proper context, whether Béla was misquoted or taken out of context or not.

I once did sound for "Banjomania"at the Speakeasy in Greenwich Village, and it was all these NY players, Tony Trischka (who organized the event), Bill Keith, Marty Cutler, Buddy Wachter (4-string - who stole the show), and Béla. Later I sent Béla a cassette of his segment of the show, recorded on a Sony Pro Walkman (no Dolby) at a low enough level so that there was zero distortion but plenty of signal.

Béla liked it so much that he passed it onto Rounder, and I got a call from Nashville, a secretary asking me if I still had the “master” (cassette), that they were under deadline and wanted it ASAP. I called Tony Trischka and asked if this was for real, and he said “yes”, so I made a personal copy on the spot and overnighted the “master” down to Nashville.

The track Rounder used was of Béla fooling around and merging ‘Garryowen’ with ‘Miss McLeod’s’ - called ‘Did you Ever Meet Gary Owen, Uncle Joe’, which found its way onto Bela Fleck and Tony Trischka: Solo Banjo Works.

Béla is a real gentleman and is generous with his praise for others. He credited me no less than three times in the album’s liner notes, writing: “Special thanks to Tom Hanway for capturing the moment.” I’m glad I was on sound that night at the Speakeasy, that the equipment was working – sometimes you had to punch the amp for the monitor to get it to stop crackling – and could afford fresh batteries and Maxell UD-XLII cassettes for the Walkman!

New Yorkers don’t let silly or inaccurate stuff go by unchallenged. Again, Béla is pure gentleman who knows his banjo history and gives credit where credit is due. He’s cited Horowitz and Trischka and many influences in other interviews. Marty Cutler is also a gentleman, an awesome banjo player, and scrupulously honest and fair in his views. It’s a tempest in a teapot really.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 05:15:14

Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010:  05:12:42

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I read the above post incorrectly and was thinking of David Horowitz

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Edited by - Tuneager on 02/05/2010 13:27:32

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  05:16:16

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I'll pass that onto him, like right now!

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  05:26:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

Horowitz is not a banjo player, Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who acknowledged MANY before Bela.

banjohangout.org/myhango...=0&styleID=0

nytimes.com/1992/06/28/a...y%22&st=csee

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That could be misconstrued as a personal attack on Horowitz - very unwise. Marc Horowitz taught Béla before Tony. You need to check Béla's own recollection of the real history, my friend, here out of Bélas own mouth, as documented on PBS.

Béla spent years with Marc Horowitz, before Tony. You just don't know it, but don't attempt to rewrite the history please.

You're not saying Béla doesn't know his own history are you, or that you know it better than he? That would be very foolish. Go back and read Béla's own account, here's the germane part, exposing your fiction:

"I was taking guitar lessons before I got my first banjo, and I was doing better with finger picking than flat-picking. One day I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, but that I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark (sic, Marc) Horowitz, who was much more of a bluegrass player. Mark (sic) was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic style which was big at the time. After a couple years with Mark (sic), I would make a cassette of him playing, take it home and then learn it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to learn more of that. I would get there and he'd just barely have it. So I started studying with Tony Trishka. Here I am taking lessons from maybe the best modern banjo player that's ever been. He just turned it upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, just soaking it up."

"Horowitz is not a banjo player" - you say? Not according to Béla Fleck! You're just winging it here.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/10/2010 20:05:49

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  05:34:53

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Don't put words in my mouth.

Previous post deleted by poster between these two. I should have quoted it because he said that I made the inaccurate statement (that he actually made) below. Pure nonsense.

Re-read what I'm saying.

You said this: "Horowitz is not a banjo player, Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who acknowledged MANY before Bela."

What's up with that? That's inchoate and sounds like a personal attack to me. I didn't say it, you did.

Go to the link above, in my previous post. Everybody go there and see what Béla himself said. This is not some theory. Béla sites Horowitz in plain english. Geesh!

LMAO

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 07:00:45

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  05:48:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

banjohangout.org/myhango...=0&styleID=0 1992

nytimes.com/1992/06/28/a...ay%22&st=cse 1992

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Guess what, these are dead links now, check 'em.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

Horowitz is not a banjo player, Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who acknowledged MANY before Bela.

banjohangout.org/myhango...=0&styleID=0

nytimes.com/1992/06/28/a...y%22&st=csee

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That could be misconstrued as a personal attack on Horowitz - very unwise. Marc Horowitz taught Béla before Tony. You need to check Béla's own recollection of the real history, my friend, here out of Bélas own mouth, as documented on PBS.

Béla spent years with Marc Horowitz, before Tony. You just don't know it, but don't attempt to rewrite the history please.

You're not saying Béla doesn't know his own history are you, or that you know it better than he? That would be very foolish. Go back and read Béla's own account, here's the germane part, exposing your fiction:

"I was taking guitar lessons before I got my first banjo, and I was doing better with finger picking than flat-picking. One day I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, but that I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark (sic, Marc) Horowitz, who was much more of a bluegrass player. Mark (sic) was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic style which was big at the time. After a couple years with Mark (sic), I would make a cassette of him playing, take it home and then learn it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to learn more of that. I would get there and he'd just barely have it. So I started studying with Tony Trishka. Here I am taking lessons from maybe the best modern banjo player that's ever been. He just turned it upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, just soaking it up."

"Horowitz is not a banjo player" - you say? Not according to Béla Fleck! You're just winging it here.

This is getting silly. I'm making valid points but they're not being replied to, just links, over and over (that don't even work).

Read this folks about Netiquette ... and not-so-good Netiquette:

theonion.com/content/opinion/o..._reasoned

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/10/2010 20:07:58

Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010:  06:10:29

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I read your post incorrectly and was thinking of David Horowitz.

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Edited by - Tuneager on 02/05/2010 12:54:20

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  06:38:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

Horowitz is not a banjo player, Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who acknowledged MANY before Bela.

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Marc Horowitz has been given the head's up about your remark about him and about this thread.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  06:44:44

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Folks please re-read what Béla says about Marc Horowitz, just scroll up, a real person, banjo player and great teacher - one who taught Béla a lot of stuff before he went to Tony Trischka years later.

I wrote this earlier, but it bears repeating, given the nature of the links, I now see:

New Yorkers don’t let silly or inaccurate stuff go by unchallenged. Again, Béla is pure gentleman who knows his banjo history and gives credit where credit is due. He’s cited Horowitz and Trischka and many influences in other interviews. Marty Cutler is also a gentleman, an awesome banjo player, and scrupulously honest and fair in his views. It’s a tempest in a teapot really.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 06:45:45

Banjowen - Posted - 02/05/2010:  07:08:35

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January's Banjo Newsletter gives you loads of information on Marc Horowitz as well as Bela's views on him.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  07:11:33

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Here's what Béla says, in the interview as documented for PBS:

“Yes, that's what I really liked about being able to be one of the first to integrate the banjo, an African instrument. We try to bring the banjo back to jazz. It is a fun idea, but we need some black banjo players. That is how I feel about it. In the early 1900's the banjo was used in Louis Armstrong's music where it was strictly strumming. Later it was replaced by guitar, which would then be amplified to compete with a drum kit, a trumpet etc. You can see how the chords were used in early jazz music. It is interesting that it went away completely. But I think there's a place for it in jazz. The problem is that most black people won't pick the banjo because they think it's the music of whites, but it isn't. It is their instrument.”

Béla is erudite on the topic, not looking for a reaction but telling it like it is (or was), citing a real conversation with Earl.

“I think it is very ironic that most people think that the banjo is a southern white instrument. It came from Africa and even for the first years that white people played banjo they would put on blackface. The heyday of the banjo was in the1800's when suddenly it was the most exciting instrument in the world and everybody wanted to play it-- kind of like the guitar was in America in the1960's. But it's funny that bluegrass comes from when the banjo was way over the hill. There were a lot of banjos around from when it was popular. I asked Earl the other day, "Were you very aware of all that music coming out in the1800's when the banjo was so popular?" And he said, "No we just heard what was on the radio, and there were a lot of banjos in people's closets."

This is Béla's own recollections and view on the history of jazz on the banjo, not somebody else putting words into his mouth.

So let’s not make hasty or reckless inferences about Béla (or any other banjo players) based on partial or biased information.

Scooter Muse - Posted - 02/05/2010:  07:19:01

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quote:

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"I was taking guitar lessons before I got my first banjo, and I was doing better with finger picking than flat-picking. One day I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, but that I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark Horowitz, who was much more of a bluegrass player. Mark was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic style which was big at the time. After a couple years with Mark, I would make a cassette of him playing, take it home and then learn it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to learn more of that. I would get there and he'd just barely have it. So I started studying with Tony Trishka. Here I am taking lessons from maybe the best modern banjo player that's ever been. He just turned it upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, just soaking it up."

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Hang in there Tom -- I know its frusrating sometimes when the actual facts just can't seem to enter into someones thinking -- oh well.....

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  07:33:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by sctrms

quote:

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"I was taking guitar lessons before I got my first banjo, and I was doing better with finger picking than flat-picking. One day I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, but that I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark Horowitz, who was much more of a bluegrass player. Mark was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic style which was big at the time. After a couple years with Mark, I would make a cassette of him playing, take it home and then learn it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to learn more of that. I would get there and he'd just barely have it. So I started studying with Tony Trishka. Here I am taking lessons from maybe the best modern banjo player that's ever been. He just turned it upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, just soaking it up."

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Hang in there Tom -- I know its frusrating sometimes when the actual facts just can't seem to enter into someones thinking -- oh well.....

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Holy guacamole ... no kidding! We can all learn about not having an "axe to grind" (for anybody). Threads can be so tranparent, and when that happens it's upsetting, especially to see people stuck in a holding pattern.

BHO reminds me of Twilight Zone sometimes. Monomania is a terrible thing to see in a thread, when it happens. Let's not go there ... okay? And if we are about to go there, let's land this doomed flight before it crashes and burns. Live long and prosper and all that jazz....

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjowen

January's Banjo Newsletter gives you loads of information on Marc Horowitz as well as Bela's views on him.

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Cool. Thanks Owen. Nice one.

I hate to see Pat Cloud bashing (hint hint). And I hate to see Béla Fleck bashing just as much, or anybody else for that matter.

Do as you will, if it harm none.

Don't mess with New York banjo players. We watch each other's backs ... every time. Haha!

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  09:00:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

The quote was secondary. I just wanted to post video from that same period.
The dates of the Video and NY Times letter just fell in line.
Definitely banjo should be played any way that anyone wishes.
I just wanted to document the first instance of "Jazz" banjo playing. [Emphasis added]

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This last sentence seems a thinly veiled reference to a perceived historical inaccuracy. The tone is sarcastic and would seem to belie the matter-of-fact neutrality of the first two sentences, refering to historical period ("that same period").

Upon reading these two following statements, mashed together inexplicably, about (A) Horowitz (not being a banjo player) and (B) Trischka (acknowledging jazz banjoists), something becomes painfully clear.

"Horowitz is not a banjo player..." is a bald assertion, a mistruth that is not explained - just a bald assertion by the poster. There is an agenda here.

Does the poster want us to infer that Béla is not regarding Horowitz as a jazz banjo player? Maybe? It's hard to tell and it's an inaccurate statement in any case. It would be unfair to put words in Béla's mouth, though he does refer to Horowitz as a "chromatic" player.

Béla would never come out and say that Horowitz is not a banjo player and he never said that; only the poster himself said that. Hmmm....

In any case, it would make no sense for Béla to say that since he cites Horowitz as his first teacher, someone whose playing he used to record every week and take home to learn. That was before Tony Trischka came into the picture (for Béla). And Marty Cutler.

Now is where more innuendo comes. Read this quote:

"Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who acknowledged MANY before Bela."

So now we have a Tony v. Béla scenario (who are great friends by the way), where Tony is painted as "acknowledging MANY (jazz banjoists we may presume) before Béla; whereas, Béla's video is glibly cited by the poster who states that he "just wanted to document the first instance of 'Jazz' banjo playing." Baloney! It's a set-up.

So the NY Times letter would then seem to support the poster's view, which he hedges about, while resorting to sarcasm nonetheless.

This is an apparent jab at Béla, inchoately expressed but clearly implied through the use of sarcasm (maybe with the intent of making a laugh of him) and the Marty Cutler letter, which was written nearly two decades ago.

I smell Béla bashing, but not very gutsy or well-reasoned bashing (not by Marty). This is rubbish and possibly meant to undermine his status. I view it as a veiled personal attack on Béla. I'm not impressed. Arguing by innuendo is the pits!

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 09:57:34

martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010:  09:05:22

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Hi all,

I wanted to take a few minutes to respond to this thread. This is most definitely a “tempest in a teapot”. As some have suspected, though, all is not quite right with my letter to the Times; in editing for brevity, Béla’s quote—and my letter—were both distorted.

Béla and I are old friends; back in the day, we’d exchange gigs or sit in with our respective bands. When I auditioned for Tasty Licks, in early ’77, I put Jack Tottle in touch with Béla, after I decided that Boston winters weren’t for me.

In my letter to the Times, I took great pains to express my admiration for Béla’s accomplishments, that we were friends, and that I thought that their edits distorted Béla’s intent. In editing my letter, they distorted my intent, as well. I phoned the Times and asked that they print a correction of my letter, which, of course they refused to do. I also spoke with Béla, who called me a few days after the letter’s publication to ask if we were okay. I read him what I initially sent, and all was fine.

As Tom Hanway points out, I was in no way trying to demean Bela’s stature as a musician; I was, however, trying to cast a little light on the equally groundbreaking work of others who preceded Béla.

Best to all,

Marty

martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010:  09:15:19

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As for the question of Marc (not Mark) Horowitz and his credentials as a banjoist and teacher, please see my interview in the January issue of Banjo Newsletter. Marc has had a long and storied professional career; for years, he was one of the top studio banjo players in New York, and he was an influential teacher for Béla and many others. Marc plays lots more clawhammer style these days, but his new Huber five-string may yet lure him back to bluegrass.

Best,

Marty

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Edited by - martycutler on 02/05/2010 09:30:08

martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010:  09:35:39

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I just wanted to add that anyone familiar with my work over the years probably knows that I am no purist regarding banjo or music in general.

Marty

pearcemusic - Posted - 02/05/2010:  09:45:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by martycutler

I just wanted to add that anyone familiar with my work over the years probably knows that I am no purist regarding banjo or music in general.

Marty

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really ?? ...
I thought you were one of those "if it ain't midi .. it ain't Earl" kind of guys !!

seriously, thanks to all of you who had "boots on the ground" during those early days ...
innuendo and partial truths are so easy to blurt out .... hard to take back ... even when old posts are deleted.

thank you Marty, for setting the record straight, and for chiming in.

p.s. can't wait to hear Marc's response to this ..... should be interesting

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Edited by - pearcemusic on 02/05/2010 09:49:40

martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010:  10:21:48

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A perfect example of how this stuff gets out of hand:

"I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark Horowitz,"

Undoubtedly, this refers to the late Erik Darling, who succeeded Pete Seeger in the Weavers, and not Eric Darwin, who may or may not have existed.

Marty

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  10:27:34

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Thanks Marty. No better man to shed light on this than the one whose old letter - garbled and distorted by the NY Times - is being used unfairly, also given that Béla too was quoted out of context, his views also distorted by the Times, who made no apology and did not redress the situation for you or Béla.

So now it's used as ammunition, but it's a dud, as from a toy pellet gun. Kid stuff.

Folks, you may ask yourselves, why would somebody make the following assertion,

"The quote was secondary. I just wanted to post video from that same period.
The dates of the Video and NY Times letter just fell in line..."

only to conclude with this sarcastic zinger:

"I just wanted to document the first instance of 'Jazz' banjo playing."?

Think about it.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 10:31:00

Scooter Muse - Posted - 02/05/2010:  11:11:19

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......and somewhere in the distance...a dog barked.....

The End

martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010:  11:43:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Thanks Marty. No better man to shed light on this than the one whose old letter - garbled and distorted by the NY Times - is being used unfairly, also given that Béla too was quoted out of context, his views also distorted by the Times, who made no apology and did not redress the situation for you or Béla.

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At the time, Béla was studying with Billy Novick, a tremendously talented saxophone player. Béla's intent was to state that there was no formal jazz pedagogy for five-string banjo—which was true enough. Somehow the Times deleted enough of his interview to make it sound as if he was the first five-string banjo player to tackle jazz.

If anyone is attempting to discredit Bela as a Jazz musician or banjoist—bluegrass or otherwise, they won't get any ammunition from me. Bela cooks, period—and any assertion to the contrary is just so much hot air.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/05/2010:  11:50:59

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Well clarified. I'm always skeptical of posters who hide behind screen names.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/05/2010:  12:21:54

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Hey, Marty, good to see you here, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.

After reading this thread, I wonder whether the comment "Horowitz is not a banjo player" contains a mistake. I often read my own carefully written posts, only to discover that I've left out an entire word. Perhaps tuneager meant to type "Horowitz is not a jazz banjo player"?

martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010:  12:41:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Hey, Marty, good to see you here, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.

After reading this thread, I wonder whether the comment "Horowitz is not a banjo player" contains a mistake. I often read my own carefully written posts, only to discover that I've left out an entire word. Perhaps tuneager meant to type "Horowitz is not a jazz banjo player"?

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Likewise, Ira; really good to see you here.

I have no axe to grind with tuneager; it is because of his contact that I found my old and disastrously edited letter to the Times coming back to bite my posterior, so I'm grateful for the opportunity to clear this mess up. I do hope that his post was a typographical oversight, because there is no room for any kind of sniping in such a small neighborhood. There are so many great players coming out of the woodwork these days, and it's more important to appreciate personal voice than a pigeonhole.

Best,

Marty

Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010:  12:59:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by martycutler

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Hey, Marty, good to see you here, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.

After reading this thread, I wonder whether the comment "Horowitz is not a banjo player" contains a mistake. I often read my own carefully written posts, only to discover that I've left out an entire word. Perhaps tuneager meant to type "Horowitz is not a jazz banjo player"?

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Likewise, Ira; really good to see you here.

I have no axe to grind with tuneager; it is because of his contact that I found my old and disastrously edited letter to the Times coming back to bite my posterior, so I'm grateful for the opportunity to clear this mess up. I do hope that his post was a typographical oversight, because there is no room for any kind of sniping in such a small neighborhood. There are so many great players coming out of the woodwork these days, and it's more important to appreciate personal voice than a pigeonhole.

Best,

Marty

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And I'm glad to see old errors rectified. I misread the reference to Horowitz, and was thinking David Horowitz the writer, and Vladimir Samoylovich Horowitz the pianist.

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Edited by - Tuneager on 02/05/2010 13:14:04

martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010:  13:07:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

quote:

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Originally posted by martycutler

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Hey, Marty, good to see you here, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.

After reading this thread, I wonder whether the comment "Horowitz is not a banjo player" contains a mistake. I often read my own carefully written posts, only to discover that I've left out an entire word. Perhaps tuneager meant to type "Horowitz is not a jazz banjo player"?

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Likewise, Ira; really good to see you here.

I have no axe to grind with tuneager; it is because of his contact that I found my old and disastrously edited letter to the Times coming back to bite my posterior, so I'm grateful for the opportunity to clear this mess up. I do hope that his post was a typographical oversight, because there is no room for any kind of sniping in such a small neighborhood. There are so many great players coming out of the woodwork these days, and it's more important to appreciate personal voice than a pigeonhole.

Best,

Marty

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And I'm glad to see old errors rectified. I misread the reference to Horowitz, and was thinking David Horowitz the writer.

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Particularly funny, when you consider that Marc Horowitz has a brother David, who is arguably the first person to play synthesizer in a jazz context. David played in the Gil Evans Orchestra for a time, and went on to record with the Tony Williams Lifetime in the '70s.

Marty

Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010:  13:14:51

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And.............Vladimir Samoylovich Horowitz the pianist.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  18:05:33

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Good riddance to that bad idea and the thread topic too, which you also "Deleted". Swing and a miss.

Sourdough Pickens - Posted - 02/05/2010:  18:28:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Well clarified. I'm always skeptical of posters who hide behind screen names.

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I'll keep that in mind....

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010:  21:05:45

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No worries Slim, we know where you live. (joke)

Okay for a harrowing anecdote about Marty and Béla shredding on a tune together, demonstrating their camaraderie in a hostile environment, please go to this thread, which reminds us that artistic license and creative control is part and parcel to self respect and exploration in the face of dubious doubters. Blessings to Pat Cloud, who is the main protagonist of this thread, willingly or unwillingly.

banjohangout.org/topic/164830/4

arnie fleischer - Posted - 02/06/2010:  10:12:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by martycutler

A perfect example of how this stuff gets out of hand:

"I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark Horowitz,"

Undoubtedly, this refers to the late Erik Darling, who succeeded Pete Seeger in the Weavers, and not Eric Darwin, who may or may not have existed.

Marty

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Eric Darwin (b. 1925) was a great-great-grandson of the famous naturalist, Charles Darwin. He is an unsung (not to mention unplayed) figure in the folk revival that took hold in New York City during the late 1950s and early 1960s. He did, in fact, live "downtown," in the Chelsea Hotel on Manhattan's West 23rd Street. There he encountered, and, according to those in the know, influenced, however fleetingly, a number of musicians who went on to achieve fame in a variety of genres, from folk to bluegrass, pop to jazz. For example, legend has it that Petula Clark's monster 1960's hit "Downtown" was inspired by a chance meeting with Eric at his lower Manhattan digs. And several reliable sources have told me that Eric loved, but was ultimately frustrated by, the five-string banjo. They claim that jazz great Dave Brubeck got the idea for what is arguably his best-known composition after hearing Eric's unlikely, banjo-inspired musical collaboration with the comedian Henny Youngman, "Take (My) Five . . . Please."

Tuneager - Posted - 02/06/2010:  19:09:13

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I regret that posting, and I do not want to re-initiate that debate, but after reading the NY Times Letter from 1992 by Marty Cutler it simply resonated a chord in me as to all the great players who were attempting jazz before that 1992 letter was written, and it does disappoint me that so many great players haven't gotten the exposure for their efforts in the jazz direction. Excuse my misplaced passion.

My own passion about the matter caused me to hastily read the post about Marc Horowitz and make a stupid conclusion thinking instead of the writer David Horowitz and pianist Vladimir Horowitz, as well as state my opinions not too kindly.

So many jazz attempts before 1992, Larry McNeely (Slipped Disc), Vic Jordan (El Cumbanchero), Bill Knopf (lots of jazz and Ragtime), Alan Munde, Marty Cutler, Gordon Stone (Scrapple from the Apple), Pat Cloud, Tony Trischka, Bill Keith, Bobby Thompson (Take 5), Fred Geiger, and probably many others that I am forgetting at the moment.

My own passion was stated stupidly, when I read Marty Cutler's letter from 1992 it just
fired up that flame inside me. Marty explained that his letter was printed and edited contrary to what he wrote. The entire letter would've probably explained his opinion better, but it's still there on the internet as it stands.

For example, just one of the great players who seems to never be mentioned much in regards to jazz either though he was tabbing out many Jazz classic tunes in BNL going back to the early 1980's and probably before.

Fred Geiger:
youtube.com/watch?v=wdRE3l9KfA...e=related Heartaches
youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Yo92JYGQ...e=related Entertainer

My mistake, my own interest in this subject goes way back and so many great players have been eclipsed and never given credit where credit is due. There's probably lots of others who could mention Jazz efforts that were going on back in that time, as has been done somewhat in the postings above. My own perception of an edited NY Times Letter aside, my apologies for my own misplaced words or intentions.

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Edited by - Tuneager on 02/06/2010 22:13:40

martycutler - Posted - 02/06/2010:  19:59:06

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

I regret that posting, and I do not want to re-initiate that debate, but after reading the NY Times Letter from 1992 by Marty Cutler it simply resonated a chord in me as to all the great players who were attempting jazz before that 1992 letter was written, and it does disappoint me that so many great players haven't gotten the exposure for their efforts in the jazz direction. Excuse my misplaced passion.

Snip...

My own passion was stated stupidly, when I read Marty Cutler's letter from 1992 it just
fired up that flame inside me. Marty explained that his letter was printed and edited contrary to what he wrote. The entire letter would've probably explained his opinion better, but it's still there on the internet as it stands.

Snip Again.

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Well, my letter was not edited to be "contrary" to what I wrote; My motivations were not all that different from those you state here. Like you, I was upset about the probability that so many great players would be marginalized in the mainstream press for want of a little fact-checking.

As always, the faceless nature of text over the Internet can make it easier for conversations to stray, get out of hand, and become contentious. My poorly edited letter (albeit, not my edit) started this fracas, so maybe the lesson here for all of us is to choose our words more carefully when we post... or they'll come back and bite you in the ass years from now.

Thanks for the opportunity to clear this thing up. What was the original thread here anyway?

Best,

Marty

Tuneager - Posted - 02/06/2010:  22:04:36

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The original thread was based on a video from 1992 and my connecting it with that letter from 1992, which I will choose wisely not to rehash. I think I'll re-edit once again, more generically "The Origins of Jazz on the Banjo", or something to that effect.

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Edited by - Tuneager on 02/06/2010 22:07:40

NYCJazz - Posted - 02/07/2010:  07:57:16

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"Origins of Jazz Banjo?"

Tony & Bela?

I there about 70 years missing in this story?

Tuneager - Posted - 02/07/2010:  09:35:40

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Yes, the reason for trying to re-state this thread.
Many players over the years from 4-string to 5-string.

salvatone - Posted - 02/07/2010:  10:52:56

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When I think of "jazz methods," I think of books or schools that teach jazz in a certain way. When you search Amazon, there are 12 jazz guitar method books on the first of a number of pages. When you search banjo you get one.

There were many great five string banjo players playing jazz in Scruggs and melodic styles from the beginning. Certainly, Don Reno was one. I remember Roger Sprung playing Bye Bye Blues when I was first learning also. Eddie Adcock was another. But I never saw any material on how to do it.

There are a number of books now, including Pat Cloud's and Janet Davis' scale book, that could be called "jazz methods." But I don't not recall any from the seventies. I would be interested to know if others might know of 5 string jazz banjo methods or material from that time.

Tuneager - Posted - 02/07/2010:  20:53:33

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This is a bonus track on the end of the CD that will accompany Pat's new Mel Bay book entitled Straight-Ahead Jazz for Banjo (106 pages due for release in May 2010)

banjohangout.org/myhangout/med...archived=

More info. on the upcoming book at:
thebluegrassblog.com/straight-...at-cloud/

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/07/2010:  21:19:49

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Yeah, we love Pat. Got it!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/08/2010:  06:34:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by salvatone

There were many great five string banjo players playing jazz in Scruggs and melodic styles from the beginning. Certainly, Don Reno was one. I remember Roger Sprung playing Bye Bye Blues when I was first learning also. Eddie Adcock was another.

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I think we need to make a distinction here between playing jazz per se--as Bela and Pat do--and playing repertoire derived from jazz--as Don, Eddie, and Roger have done--within a bluegrass context.

tubaphone - Posted - 02/08/2010:  07:43:14

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Well, this is all very interesting.

First, thanks to my friends Tom Hanway and Marty Cutler for their vociferous support. I don't know who "Tuneager" is, but my advice to him is "check facts before opening mouth". I just want folks to know that I feel that my greatest contribution as a musician and teacher is to have had ANYTHING to do with the career of Bela Fleck, whom I consider to be the most eclectic, adventurous and accomplished musician I've ever known. Notice I said "musician", not just "banjo player". Bela's artistry transcends the instrument he has chosen (some say IT chose HIM) to make his name with. As a composer, player, leader, arranger and producer he has been a highly visible artist excelling in multiple genres for decades, and has amassed a body of work that is staggering in its scope and depth. Something like ten Grammy awards and many other accolades attest to his successful career, but one need only have a working set of ears to realize that Bela is unsurpassed in expressing his musical ideas in any idiom. Anyone who chooses to engage in Bela-bashing is either jealous, deaf or lacking in taste.

Bela is still a young man. I await his next musical adventure with rapturous anticipation, know that I'll be thrilled and delighted with whatever he offers us.

Marc Horowitz ( not MarK, not David)

salvatone - Posted - 02/08/2010:  08:27:37

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin:

I think we need to make a distinction here between playing jazz per se--as Bela and Pat do--and playing repertoire derived from jazz--as Don, Eddie, and Roger have done--within a bluegrass context.
_________________________

Ira- You make a very interesting point here. It also takes this topic in another direction. Bluegrass includes a lot of improvisation but I can see the distinction you are making. How do we define "playing jazz?"