idnworks - Posted - 01/26/2010:  00:24:08

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Hey guys--

I'm trying to get my head around Circle of Fifths and Nashville notation.

Do you guys know of any good resources that break this down into manageable chunks?

Guy - Posted - 01/26/2010:  02:07:25

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This may not be quite what you're looking for but it's the best thing I've seen on the subject.

http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/

Guy

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/26/2010:  03:06:28

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Ken Perlman had an article on this, and other music concepts, in the December issue of Banjo Newsletter.

salvatone - Posted - 01/26/2010:  03:07:17

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Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1 an octave higher). Start there.

Circle of fifths, get Bill Keith's book, The Natural Way of Music.

R Buck - Posted - 01/26/2010:  05:07:18

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The circle of fifths is diagram of how the keys are laid out with relative minors etc. There is also an expression of going around the circle of fifths when playing rags. Often this is a I-VI-II-V referring to the degree of scale I-II-III, etc. Salty Dog Blues follows this progression.

Hope this helps some.

pearcemusic - Posted - 01/26/2010:  06:10:28

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I took it out of a circle ... so a little different view of
"the key to all major keys"

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/26/2010:  08:02:17

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One very interactive website for learning the Circle of Fifths is: http://www.circle-of-fifths.net/

However, this site spends more time teaching how the Circle helps you remember how many sharps and flats are in each key, and what they are. It spends less time teaching how the Circle helps with chord progressions (which I think is its principal use for banjo players).

salvatone - Posted - 01/26/2010:  08:32:46

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Pearcemusic give a useful representation. Most of the circles that I have seen have C at the top with G clockwise (right) and F counterclockise (left) Pearcemusic's representation goes the oposite way. I will refer to it in the way that I have seen it, which is the opposite of pearcemusic. He is not wrong, but I want to be clear. My circle goes clockwise, his representation goes to the left.

Many bluegrass songs use the one, four and five chords. These numbers refer to the scale degree as I posted above. In C they are C(1), F(4), and G(5). In G they are G(1), C(4), and D(5). If you look at a circular diagram of the circle of fifths, you will see that the 5 chord is one chord clockwise from the 1 chord and the 4 chord is one chord counterclockwise. This is true anywhere on the circle. This is the first step in understanding the circle.

spaz - Posted - 01/26/2010:  09:30:58

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what salvatone said is a good first step if you know nothing about it. in general i think there are 2 primary uses for the circle:
- make it easy to remember key signatures (for reading music)
- make it easy to remember 'standard' chord progressions

as rich points out the latter is probably what banjo players care about most. but seeing that the number of sharps or flats in a key differs by one from one position on the circle to the next is related to the reason the neighboring positions work for chord progressions.

I cant find the web page now but i remember one that explained it as neighboring positions on the circle sound best together, while ones far away sound worse (dissonant is a term you'll often hear). So if you're playing in they key of C, the two closest notes/chords are F and G, one to the left, one to the right (depending on how its drawn). Obviously those are the IV and V chords relative to the root I, and their 'compatibility' with each other is exactly why most songs consist of the I, IV and V chords. There is other neat stuff about it but that would just complicate issues..

To be honest, while the circle of fifths is useful for understanding the relationships of these notes, for actual playing i've found it as or more useful to simply memorize the IV and V for a given root. On the guitar this is really easy because the some of the strings are exactly a fifth apart and there are chord positions that map directly to the notes on those strings (in other words its easy to 'visualize' I-IV-V).

On the banjo you also get the root note on a specific string for each of the chord position types (for F position root is 4th and 1st string, for D position root is on 2nd string, for barre root is on 3rd string). If you actually know the fretboard notes then it should be similarly easy to 'visualize' I-IV-V using these roots. Some people will teach this not as mapping from one string to another but simply as chord shapes mapping to each other.. ie if you play an F position chord on fret x, then IV will be a barre on x+2 and V a barre on x+4. There are a bunch of these I-IV-V relationships that are pretty useful to remember.

anyway.. im probably starting to make things just more confusing again..

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/26/2010:  10:53:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by spaz

To be honest, while the circle of fifths is useful for understanding the relationships of these notes, for actual playing i've found it as or more useful to simply memorize the IV and V for a given root.

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I would agree, if all you were ever going to play were I-IV-V songs. But how about something like "Salty Dog Blues," which is I-VI-II-V-I? That's a great Circle of Fifths song. It drops down 3 places clockwise, then works its way back counterclockwise. Want to play it in Eb? No problem. Look at the Circle of Fifths and know that the chord progression is Eb-C-F-Bb-Eb.

Furthermore, once you also know that it sounds nice to insert 7th chords whenever you move counterclockwise around the Circle of Fifths, then you also know why -- using the key of G as an example -- chords to the right of G (such as D (V) and A (II)) work well as 7th chords, while chords to the left (which don't resolve counterclockwise back to G) such as C (IV) and F (bVII) usually don't work well as 7th chords. This is also the reason why you can use a I7 chord when transitioning to a IV (going counterclockwise), but not to a V (going clockwise).

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Edited by - Rich Weill on 01/26/2010 10:58:24

pearcemusic - Posted - 01/26/2010:  11:48:25

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spaz said ... "for actual playing i've found it as or more useful to simply memorize the IV and V for a given root."

me too ... as a matter of fact, I don't use the circle as applied to chord changes at all, I use it as a primer to memorize keys.

I learn all keys and all chords within those keys, so that when I see a set of changes like "Salty Dog", I immediately see it in all keys.
... I know that the movement is I - VI7 - II7 - V7 - I ... just knowing the G major scale lets me know that G-E-A-D is where I am going and that the E-A-D are all dom7 in type.

there are many great applications for the circle, and I'm not suggesting that they aren't valid ... I just don't tend to use them much.

it's very helpful when playing with different sets of people, who do tunes in nonstandard keys.

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/26/2010:  11:58:58

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Nashville Notation is numbering chords instead of naming them. It works especially well at jams where the fiddler and mando may be playing in E, the guitarist will be capoed two and playing out of D-chords down-the-neck and the banjo will be capoed 4 and playing out of C chords down-the-neck. (Up-the-neck with fingers on all strings, the chord is the same regardless of capo position. This is the critical knowledge of capoing.)

fiddler: E A B7 chords
guitar: D G A7 chords
banjo: C F G7 chords
Nashville: I, IV, V7 chords--you choose the key.

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To understand the circle of 5ths, first draw one yourself by counting up 5ths. C G D A ...... F C.

In the key of C, F is called the 4th and G is called the 5th CHORD (because of the numbering of the SCALE). But notice that F is a 5th below C. That's the circle.

To understand it on the banjo neck, realize how to make the 5th of each of the 3 chord shapes: barre, D and F and you can go around the circle by doing the correct shape. IF D goes up to G for a 5th then any D-shaped chord (such as G at 9789) goes up to the same F-shaped fifth chord. There are only three shapes and there is only one fifth up for each one.

Try it on the fingerboard.
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As far as making use of the circle of fifths, first strum your way through 50 or more songs out of songbooks, all genres, and then you'll see how the patterns (of modern songs) fall out of the circle of fifths.

Guy - Posted - 01/26/2010:  12:05:09

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Salvatone's point about the anti-clockwise circle is very valid. It is well known about and frequently referred to as the 'Circle of Fourths'.

Last weekend I did a drawing of the circle of fifths as a resource for my students. My wife, a student of the piano, immediately pointed out that it was the wrong way round, adding that she only ever uses the circle of fourths, pouring scorn on my efforts and saying that I was wasting my time.

I use it to explore the relationship between chords if I am trying to compose new material or work out what someone else has done. I love the randscullard link I posted earlier because it gives you all the modal forms at the click of a mouse. Great fun to play with if your looking to write something other than good old I, IV, V.

Guy

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/26/2010:  12:53:29

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The circle of fifths is designed by string instruments (who play in sharps).
The circle of fourths is designed by wind instruments (who play in flats).
Pianists tend to be taught by folks associated with symphonic (wind) instruments so they get the counter-clockwise circle of fifths.

Notice that it is still a circle whichever direction you take around the perimeter.
Also notice that a fourth up is equal to a fifth down and/or vice versa.
C->G is a fifth
G->C is a fourth

The distance between the two notes depends on which note you start with and which direction, up or down, you count in.

spaz - Posted - 01/26/2010:  13:16:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by Guy

... pouring scorn on my efforts and saying that I was wasting my time. ...

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Guy - Posted - 01/26/2010:  13:25:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike
Notice that it is still a circle whichever direction you take around the perimeter.
Also notice that a fourth up is equal to a fifth down and/or vice versa.
C->G is a fifth
G->C is a fourth

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Absolutely! Maybe pianists can only go clockwise.

JoeDownes - Posted - 01/26/2010:  19:08:15

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Check out musictheory.net. It's written for classical musicians I guess, so the Nashville numbering system is called 'Roman numeral analysis', but in the end it's the same thing.

WildBillNECPS - Posted - 01/27/2010:  07:44:11

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My first banjo teacher taught me about the Circle of Fifths. It's a good thing to memorize. Do it in small steps, away from the banjo like when going to bed or walking the dog (not while driving!)

During my practice sessions I allocate 5 minutes for 'Circle of Fifths' when I practice chords going around the circle. Sometimes clockwise, sometimes counterclockwise. I might do all bar chords, or D-shape chords, 7ths, minors, etc., going around the circle different places on the neck during that 5 minutes.

In playing songs, much of the time the next chord change will be either 1 step directly CW or CCW to the chord you are on so practicing chord changes this way helps.

Once you have this down it makes it much easier to play in different keys without necessarily using a capo.

66yo rookie - Posted - 01/27/2010:  08:42:29

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Here's an explaination I understand, but wouldn't know what to do with it. Appropriately coming from me,a newbie, it's from 'For Dummies'. Ed

66yo rookie - Posted - 01/27/2010:  08:44:02

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And here it is, I hope....

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conte...history.html

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/27/2010:  11:13:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by WildBillNECPS

It's a good thing to memorize. Do it in small steps ...

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Just remember the word BEAD. B-E-A-D. There are 12 steps on the Circle of Fifths. Counterclockwise, four of them are B-E-A-D, and four more are Bb-Eb-Ab-Db. And on the inside circle, it's also Bmin-Emin-Amin-Dmin.

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/28/2010:  08:46:31

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Looking at just a chunk of the circle let's put C at the 12 O'clock position., F at 11:00 and G at 1:00


now let's spell out the scles for F major, C Major and G major below
F
FGABb/CDEF
C
CDEF/GABC
G
____/____/GABC/DEF#G

Notice that the top half of the F scale is the bottom half of the C scale, the top half of the C scale is the bottom half of the G scale.

So we can see that each scale is very closely related to the ones on either side of it in the order of the circle of fifths each of its neighbors contains half of its scale.
Just as important, The key of F contains the F major chord (I) and the C major Chord (IV), C Major contains C (I), F, IV) and G (V) and G contains G (I) and C(IV). That interrelatedness of adjacent scales/keys is the same around the circle (The bottom half of F is the top half of Bb, for example).

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/28/2010:  11:00:56

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If you start on any note in the circle of fifths and count clockwise, the 5 notes form the pentatonic scale which is easy to improvise on. If you add the two notes on either side of this scale (count 6 forward and than take one counter-clockwise), you have the major scale.

For example, C. Circle clockwise: C G D A E is the C pentatonic. c d e g a
F C G D A E B provides the major scale in C: c d e f g a b c

Bill Palmer - Posted - 01/29/2010:  11:06:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

The circle of fifths is designed by string instruments (who play in sharps).
The circle of fourths is designed by wind instruments (who play in flats).
Pianists tend to be taught by folks associated with symphonic (wind) instruments so they get the counter-clockwise circle of fifths.

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I'm not sure where you get your information, but it's not factual. The Circle of Fifths has been used as a tool for analysis, teaching and transposition since 1728, when it was published by Heinichen, a German composer and teacher, in his book, das Generalbass. It was non-instrument specific. It was used as a tool to show the relative remoteness of one key to another.

Basically, the Circle of Fourths is a reflective version of the Circle of Fifths, and is not really recognized as a separate entity by people who are in the business of music theory.

So-called "Nashville Notation" is nothing more than a simplified version of "Figured Bass," a method that has been used since the 17th century for notating the way people who play accompaniment for soloists or who fill in voices/harmonies for musical compositions should play with the rest of the musicians.

According to most stories, the Jordanaires introduced this into Nashville recording when they were doing backup singing for various groups. It is really easy to understand.

prolife101 - Posted - 01/29/2010:  12:27:41

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wakaka i still don't get this!

salvatone - Posted - 01/30/2010:  05:37:43

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I didn't want to hijack this thread, so I posted a new one on other circular cycles.

kingfisher78 - Posted - 01/30/2010:  20:50:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by spaz
To be honest, while the circle of fifths is useful for understanding the relationships of these notes, for actual playing i've found it as or more useful to simply memorize the IV and V for a given root. On the guitar this is really easy because the some of the strings are exactly a fifth apart and there are chord positions that map directly to the notes on those strings (in other words its easy to 'visualize' I-IV-V).

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You've got me comfused a bit here.
The tuning I know for the guitar is mainly 4ths (+5 frets on the top 4 strings) as EfgAbcDefGaBcdE counting only the natural notes.

The Mandola is tuned in 5ths (+7 frets) as CdefGabcDefgA
and the Mandolin is tuned a 5th higher as GabcDefgAbcdE

I can see a relationship between open position C and G on the top 4 strings. If you add a 5th and take away an octave you will have moved your fingers up a string.
ie: C on the 3rd fret 5th string is 5th away from G on the open 3rd string, not the G on 3rd fret 6th string. So take away an octave and there you are.
For G to C you minus a 5th and add an octave you will have moved your finger down, but there is no direct 5th relationship between the finger positions.

Hope that made sense.
Shane.