mojo_monk - Posted - 01/20/2010:  18:02:52

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I know Roscoe Holcomb played thumb-lead (as well as other styles) and Pete Steele switched back and forth between index/thumb-lead...

There are some great tunes in the Media Archive which have received quite a bit of play around the apartment lately.

Any clues to some other "classic recordings" that feature thumb-lead banjo?

Thanks in advance.

Sean

fictioneer - Posted - 01/20/2010:  21:13:09

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"Sweet Sunny South" by Da Costa Woltz Broadcasters

"Willie Moore" and "Curly Headed Woman" by Burnett & Rutherford -- there may be others in the B&R repertoire I'm not thinking of

"Darling Cora," "Oh Molly Dear," "Pretty Polly" by B F Shelton

Mike Seeger does the Justus Begley "Golden Willow Tree" in thumb lead on his Folkways "True Vine" album, though if I'm remembering correctly, Begley did it as a mix of frailing and whamming. (Or am I thinking of "Rambling Boy"? Those are on a currently-dead computer and I haven't gotten the hard drive swapped out yet.) Begley also recorded "Lady Margaret and Sweet William" for the LOC. I don't have that cut, but it's the same melody Burnett used for "Willie Moore," so a natch for thumb lead.

majikgator - Posted - 01/20/2010:  22:14:41

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can't help you but i will be keeping an eye on this thread because it's a style i enjoy and i also am trying to find what tab i can in this style, seems like there is a lot more on index lead although still not the volumes that exist for clawhammer or Scruggs style. Hunter Robertson has a current thread on Shelton's Darlin' Cora, if you haven't seen it yet you should check it out i felt it was very helpful. Not classic in the sense that it isn't old but definitely classy Paul Brown uses this style from time to time with good affect.

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Edited by - majikgator on 01/20/2010 22:20:45

janolov - Posted - 01/20/2010:  23:35:35

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I am currently working a lot with the thumb lead style (soimething like Pete Steele's style). I have tried to make some arrangements that I have tabbed down. If you are interested I can send some tabs to you (just give me your email address).

Mirek Patek - Posted - 01/21/2010:  00:09:21

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I am very interested too - thanks!

Mirek
mirekpatek.com

omiimii - Posted - 01/21/2010:  00:34:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

I am currently working a lot with the thumb lead style (soimething like Pete Steele's style). I have tried to make some arrangements that I have tabbed down. If you are interested I can send some tabs to you (just give me your email address).

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hey there,
i would like those tabs too if you'd be willing to send them.
thedirtyfeetcollective@yahoo.com

thanks!

mojo_monk - Posted - 01/21/2010:  05:27:22

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Thanks for the names! I'll start tracking them down ASAP.

Here's Hunter Robinson playing thumb-lead Darlin' Cora:
youtube.com/watch?v=-Xl-niqQbNc
and explained
youtube.com/watch?v=LSmDuEce6O4

For anyone out there who hears the term "thumb-lead" and has NO idea what it means, it is basically a two-finger (thumb and index or thumb and middle) picking pattern in which the thumb picks out the melody notes while the other finger almost exclusively picks the first string.

Here are four exercises from Art Rosenbaum's Old Time Mountain Banjo (out of print). Notes with a "." after them receive one full count (1/4 note) while all others receive a half count (1/8 note).


Example: figure 1 would count one and two and (like bum-pa-dit-ty) while figure 3 would count one, two and (like bum-ditty). Make sense?

The exercises can be played and repeated on their own, or mixed up to create some pretty neat rhythms. Try it out with any song or fiddle tune and see what happens. Lots of fun and helps if you're feeling in a rut.

Uncle Sinner - Posted - 01/21/2010:  07:04:32

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Marvin Gastor was a pretty good thumb lead player. I think a lot of two-finger players alternate between thumb and index lead in the same song; I know I do. B.F. Shelton was definitely one of the greats for that style. Dirk Powell does the odd banjo tune with a thumb lead.

Lee Sexton is probably my current favourite for thumb-lead two-finger (though again it's rarely straight thumb lead). Lee's version of "Shady Grove" is very beautiful.

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:17:21

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That Art Rosenbaum book that Sean quotes from is a great resource for 2 and 3 finger picking as well as frailing and so on. With a little work and those 4 figures you can do just about anything in thumb lead 2-finger.

Lee Sexton is great! Here's a video of him: youtube.com/watch?v=_huBDHyoSWE

Hunter

chip arnold - Posted - 01/21/2010:  18:36:51

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Actually Marvin is an index lead player. On waltz time he uses a thumb lead, rolling chord accompaniment. On everything else he's strictly finger lead and never takes his thumb off the 5th string. He sounds the fifth string in an almost constant double thumb style and no drop thumb at all.

TomL - Posted - 01/21/2010:  19:07:56

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I think the banjo (bowlin frost?) on many of the early stoneman recordings played a simple thumb lead style

chip arnold - Posted - 01/21/2010:  19:39:17

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Add to Art's tab above a few other possibilities that will give access to more melodic possibilities. With the regular TITITITI sequence, practice the strings like so: 4, 3, 2, 1, 5,1,2,1 -- 4,3,5,1,2,1,5,1, etc. Get used to using your index on 1,2,3&4 and your thumb on 5,4,3&2. many T lead players will get the thumb up on the 1st string to catch melody there. Others will run higher up the neck on the 2nd string for the same note. T lead players tended to use a lot of pinches too as in the tab mojo provided. I've always thought that index lead was more versatile but then I've always focused on index lead playing myself. The thumb lead can be made to have great drive and it has been used to back up singing to good advantage.

madkelt2004 - Posted - 01/24/2010:  02:14:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

I am currently working a lot with the thumb lead style (soimething like Pete Steele's style). I have tried to make some arrangements that I have tabbed down. If you are interested I can send some tabs to you (just give me your email address).

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I'd appreciate it if you'd send them on to me as well; madkelt2004@yahoo.com.
Thanks.

tubaphonethumper - Posted - 01/24/2010:  07:34:10

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I also would like tabs on thumb led tunes.
Ednamaekarlinsey@gmail.com

razzletazzle - Posted - 01/24/2010:  13:53:30

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janolov, I would love those tabs too. My email address is ajrasmus@colby.edu

Thanks alot

gailg64 - Posted - 01/24/2010:  17:45:11

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Though Marvin Gaster may play some thumb lead, generally his playing is "extreme index lead". He uses his index exclusively for melody and uses it for every string except the 5th string. A very busy pointer finger! The thumb is always on the 5th -- as he likes to say, "that's why they call it the thumb string!". He has a different style for waltzes, for which he wears picks.
Morgan & Lee Sexton appear to have played a mostly thumb lead style--though would swap to index if the melody fell on the first string. Shady Grove (Morgan) is still available & Lee is on one of the field Recorders Collective CDs.
G in NC

quote:

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Originally posted by Uncle Sinner

Marvin Gastor was a pretty good thumb lead player. I think a lot of two-finger players alternate between thumb and index lead in the same song; I know I do. B.F. Shelton was definitely one of the greats for that style. Dirk Powell does the odd banjo tune with a thumb lead.

Lee Sexton is probably my current favourite for thumb-lead two-finger (though again it's rarely straight thumb lead). Lee's version of "Shady Grove" is very beautiful.

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majikgator - Posted - 01/24/2010:  18:55:38

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Here are some very basic patterns i got from Paul Brown
"
open G tuning.

Pattern 1, right hand:

Thumb/ 3rd string
Choke: Thumb 5th, index 1st simultaneously.

That's the basic pattern, 1-2 beats.

Then ...
Thumb/3rd string
Index/1st string
Thumb/5th string
Index/1st string

All the above are quarter notes ... the four notes in a measure.

Then ... in the rhythm of a clawhammer strum:

Thumb/3rd string (half note)
Thumb/5th string (quarter note)
Index/1st string (quarter note) " like i said basic but that's where it starts

vrteach - Posted - 01/25/2010:  07:17:29

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Some time ago I added this stuff to my blog:

Here are the four patterns that I use in 2-finger thumb-lead picking:

|-----0----0---------0-----||---------0---------------0-----|
|--------------------|-----||---0---------------------------|
|--0-------------0---|-----||-------------------------------|
|--------------------|-----||---------------0--2------------|
|-------0------------0-----||-------0--------------0--------|
   T  I T  I     T   I          T   T I     T  H   T  I
                     T
  {----------}  {------}       {--------}  {------------}
  

You'll recognize them as the same as what was posted previously.

The last T-H-T-I (the fourth pattern) could also have a pull-off or slide instead of the hammer-on. In the second pattern, that's a pinch of the 1st and 5th string. I use that alot.

I don't think I ever consciously use the 3rd pattern (the actual bum-ditty one), however I find it easy to do so I expect it shows up often where the melody requires it. When actually playing a tune I use whatever finger and string will work to get the note I want. Very occasionally I'll get a melody from the 1st string with my index.

I posted a 7-second clip of myself playing the sequence of patterns, and it should be at the top of my music page here on the hangout.

banjohangout.org/myhangout/med...archived=

I had to add a final thumb on the 3rd string because my brain & fingers would not let me leave it off. The sequence sounded incomplete without it.

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Edited by - vrteach on 01/25/2010 07:18:30

gailg64 - Posted - 01/25/2010:  08:26:20

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Paul's a wonderful teacher who gives just enough info to allow room to develop personal variation. That's enough "vocabulary" to build a style on right there!
I notice that the last pattern was the basis for the Birchfield/Roan Mountain Hilltoppers galloping banjo style (Elick & Creede Birchfield were the banjo players.). For the complete effect you need a 70s Aria with a clear mylar head and fingerpicks Javascript:insertsmilie('')
GG

quote:

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Originally posted by majikgator

Here are some very basic patterns i got from Paul Brown
"
open G tuning.

Pattern 1, right hand:

Thumb/ 3rd string
Choke: Thumb 5th, index 1st simultaneously.

That's the basic pattern, 1-2 beats.

Then ...
Thumb/3rd string
Index/1st string
Thumb/5th string
Index/1st string

All the above are quarter notes ... the four notes in a measure.

Then ... in the rhythm of a clawhammer strum:

Thumb/3rd string (half note)
Thumb/5th string (quarter note)
Index/1st string (quarter note) " like i said basic but that's where it starts

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gailg64 - Posted - 01/25/2010:  08:33:32

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Yes indeed, Bolen Frost (Hattie Stoneman's brother) played excellent, tasteful banjo! His playing was supportive with just a bit of kick & never drew too much attention to the banjo. You are left thinking: "What a great band!" Of course it helped to have Kahle Brewer on fiddle!
G

quote:

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Originally posted by TomL

I think the banjo (bowlin frost?) on many of the early stoneman recordings played a simple thumb lead style

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Uncle Sinner - Posted - 01/25/2010:  10:06:53

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Oops on the Marvin Gastor--the one tune I learned from him via Paul Brown was pretty much all index-lead.

Speaking of Paul Brown, he (as others have mentioned) is definitely an excellent two-finger player, and one of the few who switches back and forth between two-finger and clawhammer in the same song!

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Edited by - Uncle Sinner on 01/25/2010 10:07:59

stevel - Posted - 01/26/2010:  08:01:57

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i've been working on this style the past few weeks.

i really like how the "dit-ty" is backwards (thumb -> index) versus the traditional (index -> thumb) in clawhammer and index lead.

with practice you can mix them all together. i find its quite easy to use clawhammer tabs for thumb lead as well (unless you need to do a lot on the first string). but as others have said, either switch to index lead for the first string, or move farther up the neck and use the 2nd string.

BanjerMaker - Posted - 01/26/2010:  09:44:06

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Doc Watson plays a really good version of Rueben's Train, and How Many Biscuits using thumb lead.

alubin - Posted - 01/26/2010:  11:37:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

I am currently working a lot with the thumb lead style (soimething like Pete Steele's style). I have tried to make some arrangements that I have tabbed down. If you are interested I can send some tabs to you (just give me your email address).

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Jan-Olov's tabs are quite good. I recorded myself playing his arrangement of Pretty Polly,which starts out thumb-lead but has an index-lead part in the middle.

Here's the link: banjohangout.org/myhangout/mus...?id=41542

I only went through it once, with no repeats.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/26/2010:  11:49:43

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One of my favorites is George Pegram, who played an intense and driving thumb-lead three-finger style. Here's a link to the Pegram MySpace page:
myspace.com/georgepegram

janolov - Posted - 01/26/2010:  12:07:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by alubin

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

I am currently working a lot with the thumb lead style (soimething like Pete Steele's style). I have tried to make some arrangements that I have tabbed down. If you are interested I can send some tabs to you (just give me your email address).

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Jan-Olov's tabs are quite good. I recorded myself playing his arrangement of Pretty Polly,which starts out thumb-lead but has an index-lead part in the middle.

Here's the link: banjohangout.org/myhangout/mus...?id=41542

I only went through it once, with no repeats.

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I think you have got the idea of the tune. The tab is to a large extent based on Art Rosenbaum's tab of Pete Steele's version. I have added a few own licks (when I forgot the original tabs).

five12gal - Posted - 03/15/2010:  10:10:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

I am currently working a lot with the thumb lead style (soimething like Pete Steele's style). I have tried to make some arrangements that I have tabbed down. If you are interested I can send some tabs to you (just give me your email address).

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hi,
i'd really like to try out your tabs also, if you're not tired of passing them around.
thanks!
amy

janolov - Posted - 03/15/2010:  12:27:27

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I have worked a lot with the thumb lead style the last months. I think it is an interesting style with a lot of possibilities.

I have about 50 tunes tabbed out in thumb lead style, and different variations of thumb lead style. Some of the tunes are stright thumb lead (for example Groundhog, Worried Man Blues), other a thumb lead with occasional index lead on the higher parts (Pretty Polly, Coal Creek March, Walking In My Sleep for example), and some contains more complex patterns (Home Sweet Home includes elements from both Will Keys, Merle Travis and Mack Woolbright). I have also tried to develop the style, and instead of just using the index finger on the first string, I often use the index finger on other strings to achieve some melodic effects (I call it "drop index"). I have also involved some kind of "Galax Lick" in some tunes (melody notes comes on fifth string, for example in Angeline the Baker and Cripple Creek).

I will try to make some new recordings when I have time. Until then I am glad to share the tabs with anyone interested.

gailg64 - Posted - 03/15/2010:  12:36:30

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The Charlie Poole style (and the best-known of Doc Boggs' styles as well) are basically a thumb lead 3 finger approach. It was sometimes called "guitar style" since it's very close to the way guitar players played once upon a time (except, like Roy Harvey, they'd sometimes use FOUR fingers!).

Since I'm mostly a guitar player, thumb lead is the style I found easiest for fingerpicking on the banjo. I have just uploaded a very informal clip of me playing a thumb lead 3 finger style, behind a friend fiddling the tune Wagner. I put asterisks in front, so it should come up at the top of my music files. It's a pretty funky recording since both the fiddler pal & my husband tend to stamp their feet as they play. The edirol was on the floor & also my husband was pretty close to the mic with the tenor banjo so it's quite loud....but that's ok--I think you can get the gist of this style of banjo & that it really belongs as part of an ensemble.
GG
PS That's my new/old fairbanks/vega banjo---so light, so cute, so resonator-less!

quote:

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Originally posted by mojo_monk

I know Roscoe Holcomb played thumb-lead (as well as other styles) and Pete Steele switched back and forth between index/thumb-lead...

There are some great tunes in the Media Archive which have received quite a bit of play around the apartment lately.

Any clues to some other "classic recordings" that feature thumb-lead banjo?

Thanks in advance.

Sean

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Chris Via - Posted - 03/15/2010:  13:24:02

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The music I posted on my homepage is of Cecil Thompson. He is doing a 2 finger thumb lead style.

gailg64 - Posted - 03/15/2010:  14:59:12

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Great stuff Chris, thanks for posting. Very familiar style--listen to Sam McNeil on the Dig. Library site. Or Wade Ward's fingerpicking. People used to know both up & downpicking.
Who was it that recorded Mr. Thompson? Sounds like some of it (except Little Maggie) could possibly have been a 3 finger thumb lead.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Via

The music I posted on my homepage is of Cecil Thompson. He is doing a 2 finger thumb lead style.

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Dropthumb - Posted - 03/16/2010:  10:36:30

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Can I get those tabs ----- many thanks

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Edited by - Dropthumb on 05/04/2010 16:30:21

bFunk - Posted - 03/16/2010:  17:48:22

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another tab request bdruzin . . gmail.com, much appreciated

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Edited by - bFunk on 03/17/2010 21:01:56

fergler - Posted - 03/17/2010:  08:50:37

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One more tab request:

j-hill3@northestern.edu

Thanks.

mojo_monk - Posted - 03/17/2010:  09:19:37

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Maybe all folks interested in the two-finger tabs could send a message directly to janolov so this thread doesn't get out of control?

I get excited when BHO sends a "Reply to Topic" message to my email account...only to find out that it is another tab request.

Thanks

-Sean

janolov - Posted - 03/17/2010:  09:39:02

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I agree, you should never put an email address in a post. It is the same as asking for SPAM. It is easy to send a PM (private message) through BHO.

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/17/2010:  09:54:52

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It might be better for all who have posted their emails here to delete them by editing your posts, before some non- banjo- playing spammer finds them. Click on the avatar of the person you want to send a message to, and from their homepage there is a link to send a message. It will only go to that person, and won't be visible to any one else.
Paul

RPM - Posted - 03/17/2010:  14:07:29

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Just wanted to say thanks to Janolov for the tabs...

Pluckin Mutha - Posted - 03/17/2010:  16:46:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by rendesvous1840

It might be better for all who have posted their emails here to delete them by editing your posts, before some non- banjo- playing spammer finds them. Click on the avatar of the person you want to send a message to, and from their homepage there is a link to send a message. It will only go to that person, and won't be visible to any one else.
Paul

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Excellent advice.

It will lessen the chances of you getting more spam.

Mutha

banjer71 - Posted - 05/03/2010:  12:31:37

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May i have the tab too, thank you very much



Thank you very much
Banjer

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Edited by - banjer71 on 05/03/2010 15:36:11

mojo_monk - Posted - 05/03/2010:  12:44:35

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Again...

quote:

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Originally posted by rendesvous1840

It might be better for all who have posted their emails here to delete them by editing your posts, before some non- banjo- playing spammer finds them. Click on the avatar of the person you want to send a message to, and from their homepage there is a link to send a message. It will only go to that person, and won't be visible to any one else.
Paul

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- Sean
2ftlbanjer.wordpress.com

RG - Posted - 05/03/2010:  14:31:13

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Jan Olov-thanks for those tabs, really good stuff, they give you a great example and illustration of how to adopt CH tunes to thumb and index lead...been playing with tunes all day (lucky I got these on my day off)...thank you again!!!

witty banjo related username - Posted - 05/04/2010:  04:50:23

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What about "Big Sweet" Lewis Hairston, the reason I started playing the banjo; Walter Liggett of Dr. Humphrey Bate's Possum Hunters; Paul Miles of the Red Fox Chasers; James Roberts...

And don't forget Stringbean. His fingerpicking is hot.

And possibly Oscar Jenkins

Virgil Anderson's chording style

Dee Hicks' "Wild Goose Chase"

and more that I am not currently thinking about.

five12gal - Posted - 05/04/2010:  06:36:12

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Hey, thanks Witty! I had never heard of Big Sweet Lewis Hairston. I'm listening to him now on the digital Library of Appalachia. Sweet indeed :)

Uncle Sinner - Posted - 05/04/2010:  06:50:01

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I thought "Big Sweet" played mostly with his index finger, using the tumb to hit the drone string on the off beat. That's how I play his "Shortnin' Bread" anyway.

mojo_monk - Posted - 05/04/2010:  14:20:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by Uncle Sinner

I thought "Big Sweet" played mostly with his index finger, using the tumb to hit the drone string on the off beat. That's how I play his "Shortnin' Bread" anyway.

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Big Sweet would definitely be considered an "index lead" picker as his thumb is pretty well dedicated to that 5th string.


- Sean
2 finger thumb-lead banjo blog
2ftlbanjer.wordpress.com

witty banjo related username - Posted - 05/05/2010:  03:14:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by Uncle Sinner

I thought "Big Sweet" played mostly with his index finger, using the tumb to hit the drone string on the off beat. That's how I play his "Shortnin' Bread" anyway.

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I have always heard Hairston's playing as an adaption of the alternating bass style of guitar playing (like the piedmont style), as he started out on spanish tuned guitar (or so I seem to remember from the interviews with him at the DLA); with the thumb alternating between a melody note and ringing out that fifth string, while his index finger plays on the up beat.

...but that's just my ears