WildJimbo - Posted - 01/16/2010:  15:45:49

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Originally posted by EggerRidgeBoy

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Originally posted by WildJimbo

Speaking of Ed Brown...

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Thanks, I enjoyed that video. I've never seen Ed play in person.

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Ed's a gem. :) If you ever get down toward Dunlap, TN, you should look him up.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/16/2010:  15:59:23

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Originally posted by WildJimbo

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Originally posted by Nosferatu

Thanks Jim, I fixed it on my copy of your tab. I'll try it out tonight.

You're welcome Tuneager...If you get the 2nd CD, my niece did the art work for the back cover.

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Actually it's Pete Schwimmer.. not Jim. :)

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Oops, thank you Pete.

schwimbo - Posted - 01/19/2010:  15:28:06

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Hi all,

guess what - I was half wrong about being wrong (and Nosferatu being right) regarding the 7th note in the second measure of tab I posted for Bobby Thompson's descending single string (melodic sounding) break on Border Ride. In the first time through the lick, Bobby does play the 3rd string at the 5th fret, but the second time through, he plays the open 5th string (which was the way I originally wrote the tab). It sounds more and more like the tab is the way I posted it for the reason that the notes don't bleed together as they do in typical melodic style playing, with the exception of notes 5 and 6 of the second measure. That is why I am thinking that the tab is probably correct. I still could be wrong, but I think it is probably correct. I should ask Bill Keith if he remembers how Bobby played it, since he was likely the source of the original comment (about the break being played single string style) that got to me via Winnie Winston.

Ronnie - Posted - 01/20/2010:  09:37:16

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I spent some time with Judy Thompson over the weekend. She mentioned to me that Bobby had told her that Carroll Best was indeed an influence in the development of his own melodic style. I think sometimes things are misquoted or have faded in people's memories. I, for one, have been known to make some serious typos as well.

Tuneager - Posted - 02/23/2010:  18:34:27

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Personally shot impromptu video of Pat Cloud in 1992, Shuckin' The Corn:

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango....asp?id=4198
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw01ImG07aE

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Edited by - Tuneager on 02/23/2010 18:35:29

schwimbo - Posted - 02/24/2010:  00:22:01

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Thanks for the link. Donnie and Pat had probably been playing melodic style for many years prior to this video (I'm guessing mid to late 1960s for Pat). I don't know when Donnie started playing in this style, but probably quite a while before 1992. By 1992, lots of people had explored the melodic style in depth. So I would say that 1992 is a little late to consider the playing to be part of the "origin of melodic style playing", though the players in the video have certainly contributed to the melodic vocabulary well before then. I guess you wanted to just post some examples of some good players "going wild" with melodics, rather than saying that this was part of the origin of the style, so while the post is off topic in a sense, it does share some music with those who are interested in the melodic style.

Tuneager - Posted - 03/05/2010:  04:22:42

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Let's see the banjo is very familiar to a guitar, the 4th string is a D, the 3rd a G, the 2nd a B, and the 1st a D, just one step down from the guitar's E note, otherwise the banjo is exactly like a guitar just missing 2 lower strings, so why don't we add 2 more strings or better yet utilize having the addition of a higher octave G drone note which most seem to ignore these days. Very easy to transpose the guitar to banjo, and easier as it's only 4-strings and a simple transposition of the first string. Never mind that 5th string which you can fret with your thumb, or other fingers, leading you into other combinations if you choose to step out of playing the instrument like a guitar. While others have claimed to be the first to come up with modes and scales in single string style on the banjo, all I have to say to that is grab one of a thousand guitar scale books and it's already there with a simple modification of the 1st string. The uniqueness of the banjo is that it is a different instrument, with some very unique techniques developed for it from Earl Scruggs 3-finger style, to Carroll Best/Bill Keith/Bobby Thompson/Larry McNeely/Carl Jackson/Vic Jordan/Courtney Johnson/Butch Robins/Bill Knopf/Jack Hicks/Pat Cloud, ad infinitum. Explorations into the banjo realm and not simply banjoistic versions of guitar techniques, these were true innovations. When I want to play guitar I play guitar, it sounds a hell of a lot better than playing the same scales on a staccato drum head 5-string instrument. I've resorted to single-strng style banjo playing when I had no other choice, but I didn't fool myself into thinking that I was playing anythng but guitar considering the tuning. It speaks to the fact that we need another Earl Scruggs revolution in banjo thinking, if you want to play it like a guitar go ahead, but you'll probably never get any better than some of the experts on 4-string dixieland jazz of which many actually know how to read musical charts. Of course you don't have to know how to read music to play 5-string banjo, everything is written in tablature, and I prefer that method as it is more straight-ahead for me, but if you want to really know theory, I think it really needs to be developed for the potential of the 5-string banjo which has really never been done before considering it's uniqueness. I don't think that requires being able to read musical notation, with all it's variations all over the neck, but a method in tablature is sure to come one day. Until then, remember that ignorance is defined as contempt prior to investigation. Don't get me wrong I love great single-string players, from Don Reno, Eddiie Adcock, and Ryan Canvanaugh, I always have, but that's not all there is or ever shall be. We have yet to have a Allan Holdsworth, Al Di Meola, Daryll Dobson, Bill Connors, Pat Metheny, John Scofield, Scott Henderson, Wes Montgomery, Larry Coryell, Phillip Catherine, Mike Stern, Tal Farlow, Pat Martino, John Abercrombie, Paco De Lucia, David Torn, Robert Fripp, Bill Frisell, Joe Pass, Bucky Pizzarelli, Strunz and Farah, Russell Malone, etc. Maybe they're out there, but with a few rare excerpts, I haven't heard them or seen them yet.

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Edited by - Tuneager on 03/05/2010 04:38:37

Mopick - Posted - 03/05/2010:  06:13:39

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Originally posted by Tuneager

Let's see the banjo is very familiar to a guitar, the 4th string is a D, the 3rd a G, the 2nd a B, and the 1st a D, just one step down from the guitar's E note, otherwise the banjo is exactly like a guitar just missing 2 lower strings, so why don't we add 2 more strings or better yet utilize having the addition of a higher octave G drone note which most seem to ignore these days. Very easy to transpose the guitar to banjo, and easier as it's only 4-strings and a simple transposition of the first string. Never mind that 5th string which you can fret with your thumb, or other fingers, leading you into other combinations if you choose to step out of playing the instrument like a guitar. While others have claimed to be the first to come up with modes and scales in single string style on the banjo, all I have to say to that is grab one of a thousand guitar scale books and it's already there with a simple modification of the 1st string. The uniqueness of the banjo is that it is a different instrument, with some very unique techniques developed for it from Earl Scruggs 3-finger style, to Carroll Best/Bill Keith/Bobby Thompson/Larry McNeely/Carl Jackson/Vic Jordan/Courtney Johnson/Butch Robins/Bill Knopf/Jack Hicks/Pat Cloud, ad infinitum. Explorations into the banjo realm and not simply banjoistic versions of guitar techniques, these were true innovations. When I want to play guitar I play guitar, it sounds a hell of a lot better than playing the same scales on a staccato drum head 5-string instrument. I've resorted to single-strng style banjo playing when I had no other choice, but I didn't fool myself into thinking that I was playing anythng but guitar considering the tuning. It speaks to the fact that we need another Earl Scruggs revolution in banjo thinking, if you want to play it like a guitar go ahead, but you'll probably never get any better than some of the experts on 4-string dixieland jazz of which many actually know how to read musical charts. Of course you don't have to know how to read music to play 5-string banjo, everything is written in tablature, and I prefer that method as it is more straight-ahead for me, but if you want to really know theory, I think it really needs to be developed for the potential of the 5-string banjo which has really never been done before considering it's uniqueness. I don't think that requires being able to read musical notation, with all it's variations all over the neck, but a method in tablature is sure to come one day. Until then, remember that ignorance is defined as contempt prior to investigation. Don't get me wrong I love great single-string players, from Don Reno, Eddiie Adcock, and Ryan Canvanaugh, I always have, but that's not all there is or ever shall be. We have yet to have a Allan Holdsworth, Al Di Meola, Daryll Dobson, Bill Connors, Pat Metheny, John Scofield, Scott Henderson, Wes Montgomery, Larry Coryell, Phillip Catherine, Mike Stern, Tal Farlow, Pat Martino, John Abercrombie, Paco De Lucia, David Torn, Robert Fripp, Bill Frisell, Joe Pass, Bucky Pizzarelli, Strunz and Farah, Russell Malone, etc. Maybe they're out there, but with a few rare excerpts, I haven't heard them or seen them yet.

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I Noticed that Tony Furtado is not on your list of favorites. At least I didn't see him there, your list is long. Check out Tony on this edition of the Woodsongs Old Time Radio Hour. The way he plays banjo and guitar is amazing. He played banjo before guitar, he plays guitar with a thumb pick and two finger picks. Plus he uses a bottle neck slide as well as making chords. Amazing.

http://128.163.130.14/woodsongs-299.wmv

Randy

Tuneager - Posted - 03/05/2010:  08:57:38

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Yes Tony Furtado is a great player and simply an oversight on my part.

Mopick - Posted - 03/05/2010:  09:57:04

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Originally posted by Tuneager

Yes Tony Furtado is a great player and simply an oversight on my part.

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Well it could have been there. My eyes aren't what they once were. I am putting Tony back on top of my list after watching that video. I really enjoyed his guitar playing.





R.D.

WildJimbo - Posted - 03/05/2010:  11:55:01

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" We have yet to have a Allan Holdsworth, Al Di Meola, Daryll Dobson, Bill Connors, Pat Metheny, John Scofield, Scott Henderson, Wes Montgomery, Larry Coryell, Phillip Catherine, Mike Stern, Tal Farlow, Pat Martino, John Abercrombie, Paco De Lucia, David Torn, Robert Fripp, Bill Frisell, Joe Pass, Bucky Pizzarelli, Strunz and Farah, Russell Malone, etc. Maybe they're out there, but with a few rare excerpts, I haven't heard them or seen them yet."

Maybe you should scroll up in your own post where you said:

"The uniqueness of the banjo is that it is a different instrument, with some very unique techniques developed for it from Earl Scruggs 3-finger style, to Carroll Best/Bill Keith/Bobby Thompson/Larry McNeely/Carl Jackson/Vic Jordan/Courtney Johnson/Butch Robins/Bill Knopf/Jack Hicks/Pat Cloud, ad infinitum."

I'm not sure what you want to see in the banjo world, and from your post I'm not sure you know either. It does seem like you're trying to say something, but remember, we're banjo players here. You might want to speak in banjo terms, and get some experience with those players out there that are the very equals in status to the jazz guitarists you've listed.

That said, I'm a bit confused as to what all that had to do with the Origins of the Melodic style.

Banjophobic - Posted - 03/05/2010:  12:11:27

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Wasnt all this just posted, verbatum, on this thread?


http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/170105/5

What does this cut and pasted reply have to do with the 'origins of Melodic style. Me thinks ye likes seeing ye own posts.....

steve davis - Posted - 03/05/2010:  14:00:38

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Did any of the early melodic stylists start on a melody instrument like
piano,horn or fiddle?

Tuneager - Posted - 03/05/2010:  15:08:36

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Originally posted by Banjophobic


What does this cut and pasted reply have to do with the 'origins of Melodic style.

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It has nothing to do with the "Origins" of Melodic Style but it does point out the difference in the direction of soloing that has taken place on the banjo in these latter years.

steve davis - Posted - 03/05/2010:  15:27:45

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You seem to group all banjo players as if they play identically.
Everybody plays a little different...stereotypes have little real world value.

Ronnie - Posted - 03/05/2010:  15:31:10

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Originally posted by steve davis

Did any of the early melodic stylists start on a melody instrument like
piano,horn or fiddle?

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Thompson played keyboard and guitar. He read standard notation, but never used tab very much.

steve davis - Posted - 03/05/2010:  15:51:30

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That's interesting,Ronnie.I read that Bela Fleck played French Horn,first.

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Edited by - steve davis on 03/05/2010 15:52:19

schwimbo - Posted - 03/06/2010:  02:44:58

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I should apologize for the following post's inclusion under the topic heading "origins of melodic style" since it has nothing to do with the subject. However, since some other posters have opened up the floodgates to digression, I want to add my opinions about what has been brought up here.

I think Tuneager is saying that for something to be "real banjo music", it needs to be roll based (Scruggs or melodic style) as opposed to single string style (which he thinks is just modified guitar flatpicking). I agree that Scruggs and melodic style is relatively unique to the banjo (though people like Jerry Reed did play some melodic style fingerpicking on the guitar), and is definitely not modified guitar playing. There are lots of instruction books about how to play banjo music in these "real banjo styles" (Scruggs and melodic), because roll based technique lends itself fo banjo music (which includes bluegrass and other styles which don't require the need for instantly being able to create varied melodic lines over many different chord types in different keys). Roll based technique really has defined most of non-old-time banjo music. A good melodic style banjo player can improvise well (using rolls) over "less demanding" chord sequences and probably can play sequences of notes that may not have even been played previously, but will have more problems using the style to play over more complicated chord changes such as those present in jazz. I'm not knocking the style, and I use it a lot myself, but I realize that it is just harder to stick to it and get good results if you are trying to play "good" jazz lines for instance. There is more advance preparation required and lots more memorization of different hand positions, rolls, string combinations, etc. than would be needed in the single string style. This might be why there are less method books about improvising in melodic style on banjo than there are books about playing melody lines on more "logical" instruments like horns, keyboard, or guitar. It is not that people couldn't write books on the subject, but to master playing in this style would require brainpower and hand dexterity that would be beyond the reach of almost all mortals. I don't think that anybody playing in this style has reached close to the level of improvisational facility that Tuneagers' list of guitar players have, and that is not because of lack of ability, but because of the difficulty inherent in the style.

I think that banjo techniques (Scruggs and melodic style playing) are great for playing banjo music, but if you want to play jazz, start looking for a more logical way of playing notes (and melodic style is not very logical when compared to single string or guitar style playing).

I don't know if Tuneager has acknowledged the musicality of the really excellent jazz banjoist Tom Slavicek (who was an excellent melodic style bluegrass player), but Slavicek shows what can be done in the single string style when one is playing in the traditional / modern jazz idiom (bebop or hardbop).

Again, this post is off topic, and should probably be moved to the "jazz banjo / Pat Cloud" thread, but since Tuneager is posting in a few locations, I'll jump and the bandwagon and maybe copy and paste my post to that location too.

banjer5 - Posted - 03/06/2010:  18:26:31

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I gotta put in a plug for a Texas banjo player who fuzzed melodic and Scruggs for lotsa years. That would be Ed Shelton and to my knowledge had very little recording to listen to, 2 LPs to my knowledge. He was Alan Munde's mentor and I stood around for hours and marveled at his work at festivals. Ed is gone now and maybe not of the stature of some of the melodic masters but truly a inspiration for Texas pickers.