FretlessFury - Posted - 01/04/2010:  07:45:25

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Hi folks,

I'm an admitted steel lover when it comes to strings. I like my banjos obnoxiously loud, bell-like and ringy.

However, I have a banjo that isn't getting much love these days and thought I'd try some nylon strings to add another color to palette. I've gotten some good advice, but before I place an order for strings I thought I'd check with folks from the hangout to see what works and what doesn't for folks here.

I'd ideally like to find a set of strings that will take high-tension tunings such as A and D but could also be tuned down to G and C. Does such a thing exist?

Best,

Tom Collins

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Edited by - FretlessFury on 01/20/2010 07:59:44

FScholle - Posted - 01/04/2010:  08:02:55

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I had Chris Sands heavy's on a 22.5 short scale fretless and they worked very well in A/G and D/C. Maybe the mediums for a regular scale banjo. I thought the Sands strings gave more resistance than Nylguts which I have on some of my other banjos.

GSCarson - Posted - 01/04/2010:  08:26:45

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What scale is the banjo Tom? For what you want to try it may come down to that.

If it is 26" or similar one other option you might want to consider if you enjoy A and D tunes as much as I do is to convert it to an octave low banjo using heavy nylon strings for A and D tunes. I did that to a banjo I built that wasn't getting played much and it leaped into the running for first play tie for my favorite banjo. Its also fun to play in jams with standard tuned banjos. If you go to my music page there are two recordings of Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine using the same banjo, one with steel before and one with the nylon after the change to give you an idea of what it sounds like tuned an actave low in D.... The low arrangement uses heavy nyloguts with classical guitar strings on the 3rd and 4th.

Before w/ steel
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...musicid=1769

After w/ nylon
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...usicid=12536

Good luck with your quest,
Glenn C.

BConk - Posted - 01/04/2010:  08:54:34

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I like Savarez Yellow Card hard classical guitar strings - I use the first four strings and then another first string for the fifth string on the banjo. I've tried several other nylon and nylgut string choices for banjo and still prefer the Savarez Yellow Card guitar strings.

R Buck - Posted - 01/04/2010:  10:00:16

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One of the loudest banjos I ever heard was a resonator banjo strung up with nylon played by a gentleman who backed up Morris dancers from England. They have volume. Years ago I played a resonator banjo that Geoff Stelling made for Bela Fleck. It not only had volume, it had tone in spades.

I use nylon strings on two open back fretless models. One is a minstrel with a 14" pot. That sucker roars!

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Edited by - R Buck on 01/04/2010 10:16:28

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/04/2010:  11:31:03

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I agree with Brian on the Savarez Yellow Card; or you could try the D'Addario Pro Arte extra hard tension, which are what I use. I think they'd have no trouble going up to A/D.

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Edited by - Bill Rogers on 01/04/2010 11:31:30

unclekurty - Posted - 01/04/2010:  12:10:58

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http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/ is where I get the yellow cards. Somewhere at that sight there is a table of string tensions or maybe it was at the Savarez site. Savarez has a set now with the same tension as the yellow cards but the strings have a smaller diameter. I haven't tried those. I do like the yellow cards. But I'm a steel string person. I love the sound of my Brooks silverspun with nylons though.

WGE - Posted - 01/04/2010:  12:38:26

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I've got the Savarez "yellow-card" nylon guitar strings on my Ramsey fretless now and I like the sound. They are somewhat thicker that the standard Nylgut strings but they fit the Ramsey nut just fine without modification, although I did use a Romero bridge slotted for the Savarez strings. They have a much better tension that the Nylguts tuned down to Brigg's era pitch.

Cathy Moore - Posted - 01/04/2010:  13:10:42

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Tom, if you put nylons on and decide they're too quiet, check out this article from Joel Hooks:

http://www.banjosessions.com/dec08/Hooks.html

The right bridge makes a huge difference.

On my (fretted) Stewart, I'm pretty happy with medium Nylguts, a tall, all-maple minstrel bridge, and a tight Renaissance head. I usually capo, however, and I agree that the Nylguts can seem a little floppy.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/04/2010:  13:30:48

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I like Chris Sands Classical Banjo Strings these days. Nylguts were not good and La Bella were terrible. I use the Heavys and tune 3 frets low. The Mediums strike me as about right for G and A, tuning but with a shorter scale (my nylon strung banjo is 27 inches the heavies would most likely work - but I think the tension would seem kinda high.
I've never used Yellow Card Savarez but used to occasionally use the Red Card on my classical guitars. I preferred the feel of smooth nylon like LaBella Black & Gold.

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/04/2010:  13:37:00

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Hi folks,

Thanks for all the great info. That article looks interesting, Cathy. I'll be sure to read it before I order.

The strings will be fitted to my 25.5" scale fretless Ramsey which has a 12" pot, brass tone ring and a Renaissance head that is so tight that it will probably take me with it when it goes.

I really would like to avoid filing the nut slots if possible.

Keep the suggestions coming folks! And thanks again!

Best,

Tom

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 01/04/2010:  14:43:57

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Hey Tom. I've used minstrel gauge Nyguts a lot and like them tuned down, they feel and sound more like gut to me than normal nylon (I haven't tried high tension nylon strings like the yellow Savarez). I've got a set of the classic gauge Nylgut sitting around waiting to be tried. Another set I've got lying around to try are some Savarez Alliance HT strings. They're so called carbon, not nylon, and are supposed to be very bright. As the material is denser than nylon they're also thinner - they're probably the ones UncleKurty was talking about. I got them to put on my fretless Harmony but I put metal strings on it while I was waiting for the Savarez to arrive and metal has stayed on since, it sounded too good to mess with! I would guess they'd tune up to A/D all right, that's only a whole tone up for most of them from the norm. A set I wasn't fond of was LaBella's real gut strings, didn't sound good to me and fell apart quickly.

That doesn't really answer your questions, but I hope it helps somehow!

Hunter

trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/04/2010:  14:44:34

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For me, it is Nylgut all the way. I tried most of the available nylon strings (including sets made up from various guitar sets). The have the tonality and the feel that I want. Labellas are like overcooked spaghetti...limp and squishy.

Second to Nylgut, I used the Chris Sands' Heavies for quite a while. They are great for transitioning from steel (they feel closer to the stiffness of steel) and they sound great.

I don't see how you can make the change w/o opening up the nut and bridge slots, nylon/nylgut gauges are simply to large to fit. Also, you'll need to 'debur' the instrument. Any sharp metal edges (tailpiece, fret ends, etc.) will nick the strings and create a failure point. This is esp. true with Nylgut, it is very sensitive to being nicked.

I have had no problem taking either Nylon or Nylgut up to A on a 26" scale banjo. However, if I was planning on playing exclusively in A/D, I would select a short scale banjo for the job...or go with a capo.

Don't hesitate to try the Aquila Nylgut "minstrel" set...tune it down to eBEAB or even dADGA and explore your dark side...

Be aware that the 4th (wound) usually wears out faster than the rest of the set. Sands' 4th seem to wear better than Nylguts (which have a very soft silver winding).

Also, don't discount things like fishing line or fluorocarbons; both have been used successfully.

Read Joel's article on bridges (that Cathy linked to). You can get the old tub to sparkle if you go with a minimalist bridge. I prefer the "Cole" type 5-footed bridges (you can get them from Elderly) but I prefer dark and muddy to bright and sparkly...

whyteman - Posted - 01/04/2010:  17:32:03

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No comment to add to the string suggestions; just wanted to mention that I've really enjoyed watching your videos. You're certainly one of the most talented players on this site.

mojo_monk - Posted - 01/04/2010:  17:43:44

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I use Nylgut medium "classical" gauge strings on my 25.5" scale Brooks banjo (12" head and rolled brass ring), and have never encountered a problem cutting through as many as five fiddlers with it. It is unbelievably LOUD and has that deep, plunky tone I love.

I (like many others) use an unwound 4th string (which is actually the 3rd string from the Nylgut Minstrel set) and gotta say I can't image switching back to steel anytime soon. "All Nylgut" string sets are available from Bernunzio's: http://bernunzio.com/products/QR14277.

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Edited by - mojo_monk on 01/04/2010 17:44:57

Bisbonian - Posted - 01/04/2010:  22:54:08

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Wow, thanks for that link. mojo_munk. I use Nylguts almost exclusively, but I wear out the fourth string windings pretty quickly on my fretted Stewart...the frets destroy the windings. A thicker, unwound fourth sounds like just the ticket.

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/05/2010:  04:43:45

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Mojo monk,

Will that all-nylgut set take a high tension tuning such as A or D?

Best,

Tom

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 01/05/2010:  05:14:28

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My nylgut minstrels sound pretty good with a phosphor bronze wound fourth.

mojo_monk - Posted - 01/05/2010:  05:25:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by FretlessFury


Will that all-nylgut set take a high tension tuning such as A or D?

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In my experience, yes. However, I wouldn't try and take them up that high until they've had time to stretch out/stabilize in open G first.

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Edited by - mojo_monk on 01/05/2010 05:25:44

deso - Posted - 01/05/2010:  08:02:48

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quote:

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Originally posted by mojo_monk

quote:

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Originally posted by FretlessFury


Will that all-nylgut set take a high tension tuning such as A or D?

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In my experience, yes. However, I wouldn't try and take them up that high until they've had time to stretch out/stabilize in open G first.

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Mojo, I'm curious about this too. It sounds like maybe you only occasionally tune up to A or DD but that G or CC works better or maybe even lower? I already have a low tuned minstrel banjo so what I'm looking for is a possible change to my Brooks or Reiter. What do you think?

vernob - Posted - 01/05/2010:  12:24:55

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Nylguts sound good. It's a drag when you break one. You can't go to a local store and buy single strings. I keep fishing line around to serve as the 1st or 5th, the ones that usually break first. It doesn't sound as good but it's close, much cheaper, and they don't break as readily.

mojo_monk - Posted - 01/05/2010:  18:53:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by deso

quote:

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Originally posted by mojo_monk

quote:

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Originally posted by FretlessFury


Will that all-nylgut set take a high tension tuning such as A or D?

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In my experience, yes. However, I wouldn't try and take them up that high until they've had time to stretch out/stabilize in open G first.

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Mojo, I'm curious about this too. It sounds like maybe you only occasionally tune up to A or DD but that G or CC works better or maybe even lower? I already have a low tuned minstrel banjo so what I'm looking for is a possible change to my Brooks or Reiter. What do you think?

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I generally keep the Brooks tuned to G/CC and capo it up, but I have tuned up to A and DD with no breakage. What I didn't like about having it tuned way up was the resulting high tension. I prefer these strings to have a relatively loose feel under my fingertips, and being in A/DD was a bit much for me. If you prefer tight strings and have a 25.5" or less scale, Nylguts shouldn't pose a problem if left in A or DD in my humble opinion.

To me, 12" pot, tight skin head, rolled brass ring, and medium all nylgut "classical" strings is as good as it gets. If you are fortunate enough to have an "extra" banjo, why not give 'em a shot?

ZEPP - Posted - 01/05/2010:  19:21:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by vernob

Nylguts sound good. It's a drag when you break one. You can't go to a local store and buy single strings.

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*ahem* perhaps you can't go to some local stores and buy Nylgut singles, but I know of one place at least...

Cheers,
ZEPP

banjers51 - Posted - 01/06/2010:  08:17:41

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Even though I've had no problems with the other alternatives suggested so far, I want to put in another plug for Chris Sands strings, especially the heavy gauge set. I recently swapped from Nylguts on an Enoch fretless that gets played a lot, and was very happily reminded why I've routinely selected Chris Sands over everything else: very crisp and clear tone, along with excellent resistance to the touch--I like strings to fight back a bit. And I've never had a problem pulling them up to A/D on 25.5 and 26.25 scale instruments. I just wish Sands offered a "minstrel" set, as well.

Banjers51

vernob - Posted - 01/07/2010:  04:01:09

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Hey Zepp,
I probably should have qualified that statement! OK, but I'd have to drive 600 miles to buy that string.

ZEPP - Posted - 01/07/2010:  06:01:52

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But I'm sure the trip would be worth it--we could play some tunes!

Cheers,
ZEPP

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/07/2010:  07:17:52

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Thanks folks! What great information. I'll probably end up trying all options above.

I'll let you know what I end up preferring.

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/20/2010:  07:57:43

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Hi folks,

Thought I'd report back on my nylon string findings. First up is a set of Chis Sands light classical strings. They went on real easy on a no knot tailpiece. I used the tailpiece as intended and it resulted in a very fast and secure fastening without any tying.

The strings themselves feel pretty low tech--not unlike monofilament fishing line (except for the wound 4th). I haven't taken them up to A or D yet as I've been enjoying them in G. You can hear the results on my 12" Ramsey on Tumblin Gap. I usually play this tune in D, but it sits just fine in G too for string demo purposes:

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango....asp?id=1812

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Edited by - FretlessFury on 01/20/2010 07:58:34

deso - Posted - 01/20/2010:  08:12:57

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Sounds great to me! What are your thoughts, Tom? What is the minstral bridge and how did you end up with it?

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/20/2010:  08:36:16

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Thanks deso. The Sands lights are great. Easy to play, good tone without sounding slappy or pingy. They sound pretty good to me, though I've already been one-starred so perhaps it's not a good sound to everyone! Either that or my playing stinks. I'll try tuning them up to A or D in a few days.

The bridge is a Bart Veerman minstrel. Let me dig up the info. Real nice bridge, and for $14 you can't beat it!

raybob - Posted - 01/20/2010:  08:43:08

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Been following this, and I think the Chris Sands lights sound pretty good. Changing to the minstrel bridge was probably also a very good idea, I'll bet it sounds better than a 3 footed one in this situation. I found Roger Siminoff's recent article on bridges interesting. This project could be a great learning opportunity for many of us here (at least for as long as you're willing to tinker with strings and bridges :-) Thanks for sharing.

Paul Roberts - Posted - 01/21/2010:  10:53:48

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Tom,
Great playing and a really nice banjo sound on Tumblin' Gap!

PauL
http://www.banjocrazy.com

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:20:47

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Very nice, Tom. The banjo sounds very much like my 12 1/8" Essex Professional, which has a deep and heavy spunover shell and is set up as yours is but with D'Addario Pro-Arte extra-hard tension nylons.

Kitt - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:57:38

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I fully enjoyed how that sounded. But I don't know enough about the various nylon strings to give you much help in making your decision about which nylons are best.

One thing I'm quite curious about, though, was that I do believe I detected a number of string bends throughout that tune. I think I recall reading a comment from R.D. Lunceford in which he said that he was disappointed that the nylguts/nylons don't allow well for bends. I know that he uses some fine sounding bends on his 'Drop Thumb' C.D., which I believe is an all metal string deal. I haven't heard his Cotton Blossom, which I believe is an all nylon string deal. I could be mistaking on one or more of my assumptions and remembrances. Anyway, if those were bends that I heard, they sounded great. If you accomplished that sound with some other technique, they sounded great.

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/21/2010:  17:17:31

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Thanks, folks!

Just another quick update: during a lesson last night I tried to tune up to A. The 5th string let go the tailpiece right as I had a nice true 440 A. I think I'll have to knot it if I'm going to tune it up so high.

Kitt,

Instead of bending the strings, I'm playing fretless banjo which allows slides to have nice microtones.

Bill,

The D'Addario set you mentioned is the only set I didn't order. I'll have to find a set and give them a try.

Paul Roberts - Posted - 01/21/2010:  17:25:56

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Tom,
What kind of strings are you using in this video? It's one of my favorite banjo pieces on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Fretles.../wcb8EZeAXPE

PauL
http://www.banjocrazy.com/ Gold Tone instruments

Kitt - Posted - 01/21/2010:  17:41:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by FretlessFury

Kitt,

Instead of bending the strings, I'm playing fretless banjo which allows slides to have nice microtones.

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Yes, I know that you're playing fretless, and so that allows for a different sound. But some of what I heard sounded very much like bends. But apparently I remembered correctly what R.D. wrote about not bending nylons like you can the steels. Thanks for the reply. "Microtones" is a fine word to use for the explanation. I think I'll use that word to explain to folks the stuff that I'm ringing out of my banjo. I'll be lying but hopefully they won't call me on it.

deso - Posted - 01/21/2010:  18:11:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by FretlessFury

The 5th string let go the tailpiece right as I had a nice true 440 A. I think I'll have to knot it if I'm going to tune it up so high.

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Tom, everytime I've tried the no-knot as intended I've broken strings. My attempts to deburr didn't help either. Haven't had any trouble with knotting though.
Deke

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/22/2010:  04:39:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kitt

quote:

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Originally posted by FretlessFury

Kitt,

Instead of bending the strings, I'm playing fretless banjo which allows slides to have nice microtones.

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Yes, I know that you're playing fretless, and so that allows for a different sound. But some of what I heard sounded very much like bends.

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Hey Kitt,

Where exactly in the track do you hear the technique you're talking about? I'll tell you what I'm doing if you can pinpoint it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Roberts

Tom,
What kind of strings are you using in this video? It's one of my favorite banjo pieces on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Fretles.../wcb8EZeAXPE

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Thanks, Paul. That minstrel banjo is strung up with real gut strings, although the 4th is wound. It's got a huge sound but because of the super long scale length it's a bit awkward to play.

Kitt - Posted - 01/22/2010:  05:08:55

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Tom, The bend sound comes several times in what I'll call the introduction, and then throughout. In the intro it comes in at around 3 seconds, then 7 seconds 11 seconds and 15 seconds and so on. It's goes kind of like this:

Dooo, - da da da da dit benddd dat dit - dit dit doot doot doo doo...repeat

I hope that explains it to within a reasonable facsimile of what I'm hearing. I just watched Bravest Cowboy. You get a similar sound with a frequently used slide that you incorporate into that one. So I imagine that some sort of slide technique is how you're getting that sound.

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/22/2010:  05:34:01

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Kitt,

Yeah, those are just straight-up slides. The lick itself is a real good one to know for any tune in A: drop thumb on open strings one and two to a slide starting on your second fret third string. That drop thumb sets the slide apart a bit with that descending run.

ramjo - Posted - 01/22/2010:  05:52:52

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Tom, the sound is really compelling--and your playing, as always is terrific! You mentioned you might say more about the Veerman bridge. I haven't been able to find an "all maple minstrel." My closest guess is you're referring to the two-footed bridge he makes, but, again, I could only find an ebony topped one. Would you be willing to say where you got the bridge?

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/22/2010:  06:46:41

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Ramjo,

Thanks for the reminder. I dug up the receipt and found out that it is actually a 'Morris minstrel' all-maple bridge:

http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BA82.htm

It doesn't look like much in the picture, but it's actually beautifully made. For 13 bucks you can't go wrong. The string spacing was exactly the same as the standard Sosbee bridge that it replaced. The slots are wider to accommodate the thicker strings.

ramjo - Posted - 01/22/2010:  06:54:34

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Thanks Tom. I'm going to look into this setup. Can't wait to hear--and maybe see--more of your playing on nylon.

Kitt - Posted - 01/22/2010:  07:52:05

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Cathy Moore, on her Banjo Meets World blog, has some comments about the bridge.

http://banjomeetsworld.wordpress.co...e-great-pop/

banjoholic - Posted - 01/22/2010:  09:26:46

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Well, I'm usually all about bright and ringy banjos, but dang that sounded good! I might be referring back to this thread in the near future...

And its almost scary how much your voice sounds like brad leftwich's!

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/22/2010:  10:50:37

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quote:

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Originally posted by FretlessFury

... I dug up the receipt and found out that it is actually a 'Morris minstrel' all-maple bridge:

http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BA82.htm

It doesn't look like much in the picture, but it's actually beautifully made.

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Bill Morris is longtime classic player, and member of the American Banjo Fraternity.
That's his copy/improvement of a 1899 Cole's 5-foot bridge:





Images from: Mugwumps.com
http://www.mugwumps.com/WACole.html


Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/22/2010 10:55:41

FretlessFury - Posted - 01/22/2010:  11:08:58

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Wow, great info Ed!

The bridge itself seems to follow the opposite principle of a violin bridge: there is a direct path for vibrations under each slot. What's up with that? Do you know, Ed?

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/22/2010:  12:34:26

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Hi Tom-
Someone could spend a lifetime trying to figuring out WHY a particular bridge
design works, and others don't. Too many variables involved.

(For instance, the violin is bowed -- so the attack on the string is totally different
than either up-picking, or clawhammer...)


To jump to another subject, somewhat indirectly-related to the main topic...

I never hear about banjo players using braided silk (or now, braided nylon) like
many of the serious Classic players used, in the 1890s and early-oughts.

Back then, it was basically just grades of braided fly-fishing line... And I assume
the various hi-tech modern braided versions would have some similar pros and
cons, as the monofilament being discussed.

The Bacon Co. made Silk strings, and Fred used them. And I've seen many packages
for them in old banjo cases. At the time, some players preferred the braided silk strings
to gut strings -- because the braided strings were more consistent, and lasted longer.

I used braided fly line on the first crude cigarbox Uke I made, back in 7th grade. Long
before I knew about ANY of this esoteric stuff. My dad had some. It seemed to work.
It was stronger, and more consistant than the old cotton string I had. Seemed like a
good intuitive choice.

Just wundrin'...

Best-
Ed Britt

PS... the use of braided plant-fiber strings, and braided horse-hair strings, is mentioned
in observations of early New World banjos, and for related African instruments...

One of the first West African hallams (ngonis) I saw, back in 1988, had strings made of
very fine braided monofilament thread.

What did THEY know -- that WE have overlooked?

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/22/2010 12:43:54