beezaboy - Posted - 09/20/2009:  04:16:23

---

Is this IT?
orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedString...anjo.html

Beezaboy

beezaboy - Posted - 09/20/2009:  04:54:02

---

But Buddy Wachter says Vega in 1912.
a.parsons.edu/~amyf/banjo/history.html

Beezaboy

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/20/2009:  06:36:22

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Is this IT?
orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedString...anjo.html

---

Nope.
Neck looks too short for a tenor. It appears to be a 4-string
Mandolin-Banjo -- with Mandolin/violin scale-length.

(Surprised an instrument museum wouldn't give dimensional
info. That should be standard procedure...)

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

beezaboy - Posted - 09/20/2009:  07:32:54

---

Been thinking about changing the title of this thread to
"THE FIRST COMMERCIAL TENOR BANJO".
Balch, Britt, reading Music Trade Review, and U.S. Patents
has convinced me that the USA is replete with tinkerers.
So it is quite possible that a Mandolinist seeking a proper
instrument to be heard in the dance orchestra or on stage
in a vaudeville-type performance shaved the neck on a
banjeaurine and tuned it GDAE (Mandolin). We'll probably
never find this guy and even if we saw an old photo of it
we would not know how it was tuned.

No, what I am looking for is something like this 1919 Orpheum news
(see link below) for the FIRST such Tenor Banjo so the "invention"
and the "inventor" can be documented and not subject to mystery
and conjecture.

arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1919...-5-47.pdf

Note that the text reports that this line of banjos has been on the
market "for some time" (prior to 1919).

So WHO & WHEN is the inquiry?
The Orpheum banjo depicted has the appearance of what I consider
to be The Tenor Banjo.




Beezaboy

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/20/2009:  07:36:02

---

Oops... was working on this -- while Beeze was posting his.

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

But Buddy Wachter says Vega in 1912.
a.parsons.edu/~amyf/banjo/history.html

---

Nope... from this discussion, we already know of 4-string
"Banjorine/Cello/Tenor/Tango" banjos which existed BEFORE 1912.

Unless, you are actually trying to find out:
"Which banjo Company CATALOGED a 'production' tenor first?"
(Even as advertised, Schall's would be considered a "special order"
banjo.)

OR...
"Which banjo Company made the first 'POPULAR" tenor?"

That may seem like semantics... but those are very different
questions than, "Who made the First tenor?"

Because "the FIRST tenor" was almost certainly a "custom"
or "special order" banjo... if it wasn't homemade.


As for "Who ADVERTISED the first 4-string 'Tenor' banjo?"
To the best of existing knowledge -- it was quite simply, Farris.

Next was Schall, who tends to get more credit. But his
advertisement wasn't until c1905-07...

Beeze-
I suggest you contact Tony Creamer, at the Fretted Instruments
Workshop, in Amherst, MA. (Look it up on Switchboard.com, etc.)
I don't have an email address for him.

He knows more about the Farris instruments than else anyone I know.
He would probably know if one Farris' "Banjolins" was made in the
size, scale, and tuning of a "modern" tenor.

He's been handling vintage banjos a long time, and a number of
presentation-grade Fairbanks, etc. have come through his hands.

If you look in the Gura/Bollman book, for Farris (pg 187-190) --
you'll see that several of the items pictured are from Tony's collection.

Considering the comment by Charles McNeil, above, that he "...heard an
old time mandolinist play a banjourine tuned in fifths, CGDA.."--
it's no great leap to figure that if one of Farris' 4-string Banjolins was
made in a Banjorine scale -- the same thing would have happened. But
it would have happened in the late 1880s... rather than 1900.


Best-
Ed Britt

EDIT:
"Advertised" equals "commercial".

As someone who takes "inventions" and helps to "commercialize"
them, for specific markets -- I can tell you, professionally, that
"commercializing" a product DOES NOT equal "inventing" it.

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/20/2009 07:48:59

beezaboy - Posted - 09/20/2009:  07:40:58

---

quote:

---

Nope.
Neck looks too short for a tenor. It appears to be a 4-string
Mandolin-Banjo -- with Mandolin/violin scale-length.

---

Ed: Yes, you're right But it is a FOUR STRING. And ca. 1910

What I can't figure out is WHY hasn't a museum or collector
posted a photograph of the First Commercial Tenor Banjo?????

Beezaboy

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/20/2009:  07:51:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

What I can't figure out is WHY hasn't a museum or collector
posted a photograph of the First Commercial Tenor Banjo?????

---

Who "invented" the "personal" computer?
What IS a "personal" computer, anyway...?

Answer:
wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_invente..._computer

Care to try for:
. . . WHO "invented" the "Banjo"?

(Sweeney didn't -- but he is credited with widely POPULARIZING it,
during the late-1830s.)

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/20/2009 08:08:29

beezaboy - Posted - 09/20/2009:  08:25:14

---

quote:

---

As for "Who ADVERTISED the first 4-string 'Tenor' banjo?"
To the best of existing knowledge -- it was quite simply, Farris.

---

IMO - Farris' 1885 4-string was tuned GDAE and "fingered like a violin". This
instrument was a melody maker not the percussive Tenor Banjo tuned
CGDA and was apparently developed for the popular "classical" banjo
orchestras on the late 19th Century.
mugwumps.com/farris_1.gif

Our Tenor Banjo tuned CGDA evolved to supply an instrument for
dance orchestras and for Mandolinists to make the "easy" switch.
This knowledge is well documented.

Likewise, Schall's "Banjorine" is no more a Tenor Banjo than A. Stathopoulo
linked above. Both are Mandolin-Banjos with four strings. Stathopoulo with
a short scale...Schall with probably an S.S. Stewart banjeaurine scale.
Schall's Banjorine was tuned "like a mandolin".

mugwumps.com/schall_1.gif

Methinks current published information does not answer the question
(Who, When, Where) concerning the FIRST (commercial) Tenor Banjo.

IMO Continued research is necessary.

Beezaboy

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/20/2009:  09:36:27

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

IMO - Farris' 1885 4-string was tuned GDAE and "fingered like a violin". This
instrument was a melody maker not the percussive Tenor Banjo tuned
CGDA and was apparently developed for the popular "classical" banjo
orchestras on the late 19th Century.

Our Tenor Banjo tuned CGDA evolved to supply an instrument for
dance orchestras and for Mandolinists to make the "easy" switch.
This knowledge is well documented.

---

Hi Beeze-

Then... like the Sweeney issue -- you seem to be trying to define a
PLAYING STYLE -- NOT a physical instrument.

The percussive chord-based playing style you are referring to, WAS
first played on the short necked, 17-fret open back Tenor Banjo. That's
the SAME short necked, 17-fret open back Tenor Banjo, that mandolinists
TYPICALLY played in a single-note, melody style with tremolo.

It's true that once a "playing style" became popular, makers made specific
modifications to meet the demands of that specific playing style. (Like
the addition of resonators... and longer necks.)

But I think that you'd probably have more success trying to determine WHO
popularized the type of playing you are interested in, and WHEN. (McNeil
mentioned Vic King -- check that website I linked to...)

The banjo, itself, doesn't care what KIND of music is played on it.

The Gibson flathead Mastertone WAS NOT created for Earl Scruggs!
He simply played an OLD Mastertone in a NEW and EXCITING style. It
was the SAME banjo that many Classic players used, that Vaudeville
players used, and that many Old-time Country players used.

I tune MY 4-string tenors to Double C, and G-Modal tunings -- and use a
flatpick to play an ersatz clawhammer-style on them. They are STILL Tenor
Banjos, from the Jazz Age. I haven't modified them in any way. Even the
strings are tenor strings. I just tune them differently, play them differently,
and play a different type of music on them.

quote:

---

Likewise, Schall's "Banjorine" is no more a Tenor Banjo than A. Stathopoulo
linked above. Both are Mandolin-Banjos with four strings. Stathopoulo with
a short scale...Schall with probably an S.S. Stewart banjeaurine scale.
Schall's Banjorine was tuned "like a mandolin".

---

Nope... Seen a couple of the Schalls over the years. They were typical
Banjorine/Tenor scale, of 19.5 to 21 inches.

I also have a photo of an ornate Boston-made 4-string c1895-1910
(probably Gatcomb or Haynes), somewhere -- but I haven't been able
to locate it. It's VERY similar in appearance to the Schall.

SS Stewart used a short neck on a VERY large rim, for his "Imperial"
banjeaurines. But the later Vega Banjorines used basically the SAME
scale-length range. And Stewart eventually produced 11-inch head
"Banjo-banjeaurine" models -- to meet the popular demands for a
longer neck and a smaller rim.

The words "Tuned *like* a mandolin", can simply be shorthand for "tuned
in fifths". I use that description myself -- because I can never remember
which one is GDAE, and which is CGDA. (But I usually say "relative to a
mandolin" -- to avoid mis-interpretation.)

Is a plectrum banjo tuned in "Chicago Tuning" still a "Plectrum Banjo"?
Or has it become something else?

If a jazz plectrum player simply mutes the 5th-string, on a resonated 5-string
banjo -- and then plays it in typical Jazz style... Is he playing "Plectrum-Style"?
Or is he playing a "Plectrum Banjo"?

A clear definition of the "problem statement" -- helps to narrow the search.


Best--
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

beezaboy - Posted - 09/20/2009:  12:05:48

---

Posted - 09/06/2009 : 07:03:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

---

Who made it?
Clues please!
Somebody must have a catalog or advertisement ca. 1908 - 1912 for this banjo:

Defined: 1. 17 frets; 2. approx. 11" head; 3. probably open back;
4. 19 1/2" - 21 1/2" scale; 5. four steel strings; 6. tuned CGDA;
7. Market = Mandolinists wishing to play the snappy, cutting rhythm instrument
desired by leaders of dance bands that were prolifigating after 1900 when overlapping musical trends included Ragtime and Dance music.

---

This is the one I am seeking

Beezaboy

NYCJazz - Posted - 09/21/2009:  07:53:37

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

But Buddy Wachter says Vega in 1912.
a.parsons.edu/~amyf/banjo/history.html

Beezaboy

---

BTW this was posted by another one of Cynthia's students, Amy Finkel, a VERY talented artist.

Here's some of her web design:

banjomuseum.org

A film you might enjoy:

stringsofmyheart.com/index2.htm

And her website is:

sailorbeware.com/



Nathan

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/21/2009:  11:03:46

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NYCJazz

BTW this was posted by another one of Cynthia's students, Amy Finkel, a VERY talented artist.
...
A film you might enjoy:
stringsofmyheart.com/index2.htm

---

Hi Nathan --

In the website, for Amy's film: "Zing Went The Strings Of My Heart!",
she has an interactive 4-string banjo emailable postcard you can make
-- to help promote the film.

stringsofmyheart.com/postcard/index2.htm

When you get to the page where you get to pick a peghead for the banjo...
8 pegheads are shown. 7 are well-known, top-of-the-line classics from
the '20s. The 8th is the "Renaissance" peghead -- that I designed for OME.

It's an honor to be included in such good company...


And now... back to our regularly-scheduled discussion of:
"The 4-String Banjo: Who, What, When, Where, & Why?"...


Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/21/2009 11:04:37

beezaboy - Posted - 09/26/2009:  12:23:53

---

CLUE or CONUNDRUM!

Focus S.S. Stewart:

Samuel Swain Stewart died 1898 (Mugwumps).
George Bauer contined to make S.S. Stewart banjos 1901-1910 (Mugwumps).
Keenophone Co. acquired Bauer company and S.S. Stewart name 1911 (Mugwumps).
Keenophone was a small victrola manufacturer in Philadelphia, Pa.
Keenophone sold S.S. Stewart name to Buegeleisen & Jacobson (N.Y. jobber) 1915.

Now, a review of Music Trade Review reveals that while S.S. Stewart was under Keenophone ownership (1911-1914) an entity named S.S. Stewart Co. moved up from Philadelphia to New York City and set up a manufacturing facility at 46 East 13th Street, N.Y. to manufacture banjo-mandolins, banjos, banjeaurines, etc.

On November 30, 1912 a spokesman for S.S. Stewart Co. on 13th Street announced that "we expect to get out a number of new styles of banjo-mandolins..."

On May 30, 1914 the S.S. Stewart Co., 46 East 13th Street, New York, announced that the company added three new styles of banjos and banjo-mandolins.

In 1915 one of the Stewart products is described as a" 'cello, tango, banjo-mandolin"

In 1915 S.S. Stewart name is acquired by Buegeleisen, who appears to be a consummate jobber, not a manufacturer. After 1914 the S.S. Stewart, 46 East Thirteen Street manufacturing facility disappears from the pages of Music Trade Review and I'll wager that Buegeliesen closed the factory down promptly after acquiring the Stewart name and contracted out the making of Stewart branded instruments.

Meanwhile.... Do you think the boys at S.S.Stewart Co., 46 East 13th Street, New York, N.Y. (a division of Keenophone) developed the physical 17 fret Tenor (tango) Banjo at their factory during the period 1912-1914?? Could the inventor of the Tenor Banjo be a talking machine company!

Beezaboy

beezaboy - Posted - 10/02/2009:  07:30:06

---

Another shred of evidence:
If Wm. L. Lange developed the first CGDA 17 fret tenor banjo - We'd Know.
If Vega developed the first CGDA 17 fret tenor banjo - We'd Know.
If David Day and Bacon developed the first CGDA 17 fret tenor banjo - We'd Know.

I think the tenor banjo came out of a smaller shop. That's why we don't know.

How about that banjo factory on East 17th Street, New York City 1912-1914!!!
It was making S. S. Stewart branded banjos. Several Music Trade Review articles attest to this fact.

Well here is an interesting tidbit abstracted from BMG magazine.

Fred S. Stewart had joined Joe. W.Stern & Co. of 34 East 21st St., New York City,
when the firm of Stewart & Bauer had failed and Stern’s started to produce the S. S.
Stewart’s Son Improved " 4 S " banjos at prices ranging from $9.00 to $65.00, the
Instruments were said to be made under the personal supervision of Fred S. Stewart.
They were advertising this instruments for at least three years but no later mention
has been found. In August 1914 Buegeleisen & Jacob-son, of New York City
announced they had bought the "patent rights" of the Stewart banjo and would resume the manufacturer of banjos bearing the S. S. Stewart name.

Well, the address for Fred Stewart in the abstract and the address for the Stewart factory I gleaned from Music Trade Review are different but Fred Stewart (S.S.'s eldest son) was in New York making banjos somewhere and perhaps by 1912-1914 Fred Stewart was in the 46 East 13th Street factory and the one introducing their new model:
a "CELLO, TANGO, BANJO-MANDOLIN".

See where I'm going! CELLO = CGDA; TANGO = 4 string banjo;
BANJO-MANDOLIN = short scale (not traditional standard 5-string scale).

We'll keep on plugging!


Beezaboy

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 10/02/2009 10:20:33

NYCJazz - Posted - 10/02/2009:  10:55:03

---

Go go go!

I hope this turns out to be the one!

I'm literally 4 blocks from that location right now!

DanielT - Posted - 10/02/2009:  11:16:57

---

Just an aside here, not intending to hijack:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

An Albany, NY danceband player is credited with recording the first Irish tunes
on tenor banjo, in the '20s. (Can't remember his name, right now.)

---

This would be Mike Flanagan of the Flanagan Brothers. He was originally from Waterford and, as I understand, played Vegas.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

There was also a fellow here in Boston, who was an "early adopter" of the tenor, for Irish
traditional tunes.

---

This, I believe, would be Neil Nolan. I think he came from Maine and played in Dan Sullivan's Shamrock Band. There were others pre-WWII banjo players as well, including Mike Gaffney, James Ryan, Joe Fahey. As far as I know, all these early Irish adopters (save the banjo-mandolinists) played CGDA. Later tune players (1940s-50s) included George Derrane and Jimmy Kelly in Boston and Mike Leonard (afaik, Mike Flanagan's only student) in Albany. There were definitely more, but the scuttlebut is that all these guys played CGDA. (Thing is, most of the guys I know of playing tunes were in America - don't know how many there were [if any?] in Ireland.)

However, there's another undeveloped piece that might inform the evolutionary discussion here. I understand Francis O'Neill-made cylinder recordings around the turn of the century and on them there is supposed to be a guy named Thomas Kiley playing tunes on the banjo mandolin (this would have been made around the turn of the century). If recordings such as this one do indeed exist, it would lend some documentary support to the evolutionary argument. I suppose we'll know more about that (and have more info for this thread) when the O'Neill recordings become available.

THEN...

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

Barney Mckenna is usually credited with popularizing the tenor for Irish tunes,
during the 1960s.

---

Yeah, for tunes (we all know there were others doing it, especially in the US) but he really hammered home the GDAE tuning.

beezaboy - Posted - 10/02/2009:  11:25:10

---

Please see the S.S. Stewart ad in Music Trade Review
February 14, 1914. By golly, there is S.S. Stewart on East
13th Street in NYC. Proclaiming a "new Stewart factory"!!
Boy, I sure wish I could write for their catalog but its probably
too late!

arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1914...-7-51.pdf

Nathan - If you have time could you run by 46 East 13th Street
and get us each a S.S. Stewart catalog. We'll see if they have a nice
plectrum for you and a 17 fret, CGDA, tenor for me!

Beezaboy

DanielT - Posted - 10/02/2009:  11:55:17

---

Okay, so who is it who has all the data who will set up a public Google Map with ALL the NYC banjo factories/manufacturers on it? Now THAT would be some public service.

beezaboy - Posted - 10/02/2009:  12:04:26

---

BTW - Don't remember if I've posted this before but anyway
here is an early (Nov. 11, 1916) tenor banjo. This is very close!
Looks a lot like J.B. Schall's Banjorine.

mugwumps.com/schall_1.gif

But Bruno was strictly a jobber...not a maker. Somebody
designed and manufactured this genre of banjo and we're
going to make every effort to track it to its original lair!!

arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1916...20-55.pdf

Beezaboy

beezaboy - Posted - 10/02/2009:  12:14:09

---

Daniel T - Hard job because the addresses changed a lot. For example,
Buegeleisen and Jacobson were major players. They were jobbers.
In the beginning (teens) they were on University Place. By 1922 they'd
moved to 5-7-9 Union Square. Haven't even figured out how to create a
list and I find a new maker (to me) quite frequently. This week I accidentally
discovered Albert Houdlett & Sons, 40 Melrose Street, Brooklyn, N.Y. active
in 1922. The articles indicate that Houdlett had a factory. The banjo brands
were Lynbrook, Nu-Way and Nu-Art. Heck, I've never seen any of these
brands so am advertising in Hangout now. See what develops.

Beezaboy

DanielT - Posted - 10/02/2009:  12:27:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Daniel T - Hard job because the addresses changed a lot.

---

I'd say put them all in! You can annotate each "stick pin" with dates as best you can. I wonder if there's an option to make authorship public so that others can add and edit...

That way, there's a resource for all to see and all the data will be in once place.

NYCJazz - Posted - 10/02/2009:  14:25:45

---

Wow!

The B&J location is even closer to me!

I'm a block off Union Sq. Park (where I've been spending my lunch hour practicing) That address is a Staples now.

beezaboy - Posted - 10/02/2009:  15:35:34

---

A Staples! What has the world come to?

Beezaboy

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/02/2009:  19:36:28

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DanielT

Just an aside here, not intending to hijack:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1
An Albany, NY danceband player is credited with recording the first Irish tunes
on tenor banjo, in the '20s. (Can't remember his name, right now.)...

---

This would be Mike Flanagan of the Flanagan Brothers. He was originally from Waterford and, as I understand, played Vegas. ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

There was also a fellow here in Boston, who was an "early adopter" of the tenor, for Irish
traditional tunes....

---

This, I believe, would be Neil Nolan. I think he came from Maine and played in Dan Sullivan's Shamrock Band. ...

---

Thanks Daniel -- those are exactly the fellows I meant.

(I have Neil Nolan's obit from the Boston Globe. The heading caught my eye,
because he was also professional stained glass worker. I did that for a couple years...)

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/02/2009:  19:45:35

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DanielT

Okay, so who is it who has all the data who will set up a public Google Map with ALL the NYC banjo factories/manufacturers on it? Now THAT would be some public service.

---

I tried creating a map of the Boston area banjomakers about 10 years years ago...
BUT... with Urban Renewal -- many of the buildings, street addresses,
street names, and even the streets themselves, are long gone....

Some year I'll have to go the map department in the BPL, and try to graphically
overlay a new map over some old ones showing the correct locations...

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

DanielT - Posted - 10/02/2009:  22:46:52

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

I tried creating a map of the Boston area banjomakers about 10 years years ago...
BUT... with Urban Renewal -- many of the buildings, street addresses,
street names, and even the streets themselves, are long gone....

---

Ed, I've written it before and I will say it again: write a damn book, already.

Also, do you take visitors? I grew up outside of Boston and get up to your neck now and again. Would love to talk in person sometime!

beezaboy - Posted - 10/05/2009:  12:54:40

---

I just bought ebay item 250503455490 - S.S. Stewart 140.
This may be an example of the first tenor banjo.
Here's why I think...
The peghead is not traditional Stewart nor is the inlay
the star and crescent moon. The pot is wood not spun-over.
The peghead on ebay Stewart 140 is almost identical to one of
Fred Stewart's S.S. Stewart Son's "4S" banjos. See:
billsbanjos.com/4S.htm
On Sept. 11, 1911 Keen-O-Phone acquired the S.S. Stewart name.
On April 6, 1912 a Keen-O-Phone rep was in New York taking banjo orders.
On Nov. 30, 1912 a rep for S.S. Stewart Co. on East 13th Street gives an interview.
On May 30, 1914 The S.S. Stewart Co. 46 East 13th St., NYC announced three
new banjos made with "five ply veneer wood rims".
On July 25, 1915 B&J which then "merchandised" the S.S. Stewart
line announced a No. 140 S.S. Stewart "'cello, tango banjo mandolin".
So....????
Trouble is: a later drawing (1916) of B&J S.S. Stewart "Tango
Banjo Mandolin" in Music Trade Review depicted an ordinary
short Banjo-Mandolin with a spun-over rim. I have not been able
to find a picture of the "'cello, tango banjo-mandolin".
At the time of all of this Keen-O-Phone (owner of S.S. Stewart
trademarks since 1911) was apparently in financial difficultyand
apparently sold the Stewart name to B&J sometime in 1915 according
to Mugwumps.
It is a mystery who was mangaging and designing banjos at Keen-O-Phone's
The S.S. Stewart Co. factory at 46 East 13th Street, New York during the period 1912-1915 because in all the Music Trade Review articles the Stewart spokesman
is never identified. Could it have been Fred S. Stewart? He might have
been maintaining a low public profile due to the prior (about 1904) S.S. Stewart name litigation. Afterall, the peghead on the ebay tenor banjo is Fred Stewart's
peghead.

This is like a Sherlock Holmes mystery.
I'll confer with Watson tonite.




Beezaboy

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 10/05/2009 13:05:25

beezaboy - Posted - 10/14/2009:  05:13:49

---

Some hypotheses supported by some evidence in the literature so far:

I. VEGA produced the FIRST TENOR BANJO!
A. Bollman, Kimmel, Unger article in Pickin' June, 1978 states 1912.
B. Bollman documents Fairbanks by Vega Imperial Electric Tenor Banjo SN 28473
approximate construction date 1912.
C. Tenor Banjo tutorial written between Apr., 1913 and Apr., 1914 depicts a
drawing of a Vega Regent 17 fret tenor banjo and includes a photograph of a
woman holding a Vega Regent 17 fret tenor banjo.
D. Karen Linn (Barbaric Twang) documents a 1915 Vega ad in Crescendo for
Tenor Banjo.
E. American Guild proposal to name instrument "Tenor Banjo" 1915 Convention.

II. "Tenor Banjo" is not a slurred adaptation of "Tango Banjo". The fretted musical
instrument trade caused this confusion.
A. Tenor Banjo named for its percieved place in orchestra from earlier (1907)
placement of the Tenor Mandola as one of the "correct" instuments in the
mandolin orchestra by the American Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists and
Guitarists. Therefore, "Tenor Banjo" was named by the Guild.
B. A "Tango Banjo" is synonymous with "Banjolin". They are same instrument. A 4-
string banjo mandolin. (Source: E.N. Guckert 1919).

III. The physical structure of a Tenor Banjo was derived from the 5-string
Banjeaurine generally and the Vega "Banjorine" (a banjeaurine) specifically The
instrument's concept was from S.S. Stewart's "Banjo-Banjeaurine" but the
Vega ititeration had but 17 frets to the body. Therefore, the original Tenor
Banjo had 17 frets because Vega made it and it's Banjorine had 17 frets. Other
manufacturers copied Vega's model and the 17 fret neck became the standard
until the early 1920's.

IV. The Tenor Banjo and the Banjo Mandolin co-existed as stage, band and
orchestra instruments and while the Tenor Banjo can count the Banjo Mandolin
in its lineage, the Tenor Banjo did not supplant the Banjo Mandolin which
retained its popularity thru the teens and into the 1920's. The Tenor Banjo did,
however, become more popular than the Banjo Mandolin as time progressed
into and through the 1920's

V. The Melody Banjo is merely a hybrid (like the 5-string Piccolo Banjo) and is but a
historic footnote to the Banjo Story.

Hopefully, more to follow.


Beezaboy

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/14/2009:  07:26:54

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy
Some hypotheses supported by some evidence in the literature so far:

... I. VEGA produced the FIRST TENOR BANJO! ...

---

Hi Beeze-

" VEGA probably produced the FIRST TENOR BANJO..."
Would probably be more appropriate. (There are few absolutes in any of this.)

Remember that Brent Hayes was playing his 5-string plectrum (5 long strings) by
1910, and was already touring extensively by 1911. The mere fact he played with
a pick -- would have had some popular effect on the banjo market. (But... what/who
gave HIM the idea to play banjo with a pick?...)

The rest of your outline is excellent!

Some very good work there. I particularly like the info about The Guild and the "Tenor
Mandola". (Though I still don't know why the modifier "Tenor" was used to describe a
Mandola. Classical musicians don't typically use the term "Tenor VIOLA".

(Maybe youse guyz are really playing "Banjolas")

Although... here is some info about the confusion over viola sizes (and tuning) which
may shed some light on the confusion over tenor banjo names, sizes, scale-lengths,
and tunings. (Or, confuse us even more...)

theviolaworkshop.com/page6.html


Again, unless you can cite specific chapter and verse... try: "Therefore, the "Tenor Banjo"
was probably named by the Guild. (Or "...appears to have been named...")

A few well-placed weasel-words always help to keep rabid obsessives (like me) from
jumping on your throat -- and demanding absolute "proof".


Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 10/14/2009 07:30:21

beezaboy - Posted - 10/14/2009:  08:59:01

---

Hello Ed:
Thank you for your encouragement. I'm going to continue to seek
evidence about the First Tenor Banjo. I am astounded that so far
I've found no ..."Drum Roll, Please-type" announcement for the
first Tenor Banjo. Nor any claims from a manufacturer to have been
the FIRST...the ORIGINAL...ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES.
Clearly, more erudite researchers have explored this subject but
even a blind squirrel can find a nut!

Beezaboy

beezaboy - Posted - 10/16/2009:  14:57:55

---

A few posts ago I mentioned the S.S. Stewart factory at
46 East 13th Street, New York, N.Y. This factory really
intrigues me. It was only operating, it appears, from Nov. 1912
to approx late 1914 or early 1915. If anyone has any info
about it I would appreciate a heads-up. Anyway, Buegeleisen
& Jacobson jobbers purchased the S.S. Stewart tradename in
about mid-1915 and promptly announced its new "No. 140 S.S. Stewart
'Cello, Tango Banjo Mandolin" which I think was designed in the
New York factory. Well, I got a 1915 reprint Buegeleisen & Jacobson
catalog and there it is pictured!! It looks like a "Tenor Banjo". Four string
open back, 11" spunover rim, extended fingerboard, 19 frets to the
rim with 21 overall. Here is the catalog text:

"The S.S. Stewart Cello-Tango Banjo Mandolin
Is designed specially for Mandolin players who do dance
orchestra work. The quality of tone is exactly the same as
a Banjo. It has four strings, is tuned like a Mandolin, and played
with a pick. It is not necessary for the Mandolinist to learn a
new system of fingering, as the regular violin or piano scores
may be used in connection with this instrument.

Interesting

Beezaboy

blarneystar - Posted - 10/17/2009:  05:45:00

---

I got a copy of the 1912-1913 Bruno catalog from Bernunzio.

The same Bruno illustration that was used in the 1916 Music Trade Review article referenced above is on the last page, which shows their "banjorines." Below the five-string banjorines is a "banjorine mandolin." I'd love to attach or insert the image, but I can't figure out how to do that here.

The text, however, makes clear that this instrument, which looks extremely tenor banjoish, was to be tuned GDAE - "THIS BANJORINE is designed for Mandolin players who do concert playing, and cannot be detected from a Banjo by the general public as the quality of the tone is exactly the same as a Banjo. It has four strings, tuned like a Mandolin and played with a pick. To play this instrument it is not necessary for the mandolinist to learn a new system of fingering, as regular Violin or piano scores can be read and executed the same as if on the Mandolin."

It had a 10 1/2" rim - smaller than the 12 inch head on the five-string Bruno banjorines - and 21 frets, but only 17 are free of the neck, the remainder extending over the head. So I'd call this a 17-fret instrument for practical purposes.

This is a 1912 tenor banjo - it's just not tuned CGDA. It is quite like Schall's 1907 banjorine and may have been inspired by it. If the only difference between this instrument and a "real" tenor banjo is the tuning, then I don't think that's much of a difference. I play Irish music and tune my tenor banjo GDAE. It's still a tenor banjo.

Vega may have been the first to market a CGDA-tuned tenor, but I think we have to give Louis Stepner and J.B. Schall the credit for creating the modern instrument. Farris's "banjolin" (at least in the only version that I've seen) was mandola length, so it wasn't quite there yet.

Don Meade

beezaboy - Posted - 10/17/2009:  10:26:20

---

Don: Good and valid points. I've been thinking on this.
The Bruno "Banjorine Mandolin" has almost the same text
as Buegeleisen's 'Cello, Tango Banjo Mandolin. Both
instruments appear very similar to Schall's Banjorine. (I just
this a.m. ordered the Bruno catalog you refer to.)
So, I am working on another hypothesis. There was No one FIRST
TENOR BANJO there were actually THREE FIRST TENOR BANJOS.
Perhaps, two of them were treble clef melody instruments designed to appeal
violinist and mandolinists experiencing a change in US music.
This instrument was designed to actually carry the melody line by,
generally speaking, sounding individual melody notes.
The other of them was a percussive instrument (CGDA) read on
the same treble clef after Universal Notation but sounding 5
notes lower. This instrument had a relationship to the Tango
Banjo Drum we've seen advertised in Music Trade Review in that
it was a rhythm instrument for the dance band and would also
appeal to the violinist and mandolinist it being still tuned in 5ths.
The third FIRST TENOR BANJO is the short neck 4-string that looks
like this (almost 17 frets):
orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedString...anjo.html
All of these instruments were breaking through the soil about 1912-1914.
Schall's credit should be where credit is due. Was his banjorine an accident for
our discussion of the history and evolution of the Tenor Banjo?
Did he aim for this and hit that. Open minds will prevail.

BTW: I've written to the Library of Congress about securing copies of
The Cadenza for appropriate years and we'll see how that goes.
Also, Buegeleisen and Bruno were jobbers. Wonder who actually
Designed and then manufactured the instruments in question.

Beezaboy

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/17/2009:  12:22:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by blarneystar

... Vega may have been the first to market a CGDA-tuned tenor, but I think we
have to give Louis Stepner and J.B. Schall the credit for creating the modern instrument.
Farris's "banjolin" (at least in the only version that I've seen) was mandola length, so it
wasn't quite there yet.
Don Meade

---

Hi Don --

Nope. Please read Farris' ad again -- he made them in 4 sizes. He also made them in
8-string versions, as well as the here-advertised 4-string versions. (I've also played an
tenor-sized 8-string version.)


Courtesy Mugwumps.com


The Banjolins are a bit more common here, in New England, and I've seen several.
Definitely one was the size of a typical c1910 17-fret openback tenor. Again, Tony
Creamer, in Amherst, MA is the Farris guru.



Nice work, finding that early reference to octave-mandolin tuning -- GDAE. I've always
assumed that was the EARLIEST use of the physical instrument (TSO) that we now call a
"tenor banjo". (TSO = Tenor-Shaped Object.)

(Beeze will eventually arrive at that same conclusion... Once he's had the time to process
all this new info though his personal "information filters". That's what conscientious people
do, when problem-solving...)

And Beeze is also wondering about who made the banjos, for the jobbers and distributors
like Bruno.

Let me say that distributors usually don't design or order anything, until it's a sure bet.
"House Brands" always show up AFTER the market innovator has already cleared the logs
and boulders from the new trail. (Those trucks loaded with "product" need a good clear
road -- and a LOT of room.)

Bruno would have flooded the market with inexpensive VERSIONS -- of what had already
become "notable" a year-or-so previously. And then they probably advertised the H*LL
out of it -- to gain market-share with mom-and-pop stores, who were NOT dealers for the
main brands.

I still believe the 4-string tenor started as a "grass-roots" innovation. I think poor, little,
John Farris tucked a few of his patented Banjolins under his arm, and personally scouted
the trail first. Probably making peanuts off all the effort he put into his venture.

Perhaps 15 to 20 years later... a few better-known players proably began to "adopt" the
mandolin/banjo hybrid. And those who were already "Artist Endorsers" for the main brands,
began to request 4-strings.The main companies would usually make a "custom" instrument
for one of their endorsers -- because the "Artists" would promote the "new" idea to their
large audiences (and other lower-rung players).

THAT is what I believe would have created the "demand" for a "production-quality" 4-string
tenor banjo.

And I don't think that the tuning issue (GDAE vs CGDA) was resolved, until years later.
Considering the current popularity of "Irish" tenor banjo -- it somewhat obvious that it was
never COMPLETELY resolved...


Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 10/17/2009 12:29:13

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/17/2009:  12:46:00

---

PS:

In another BHO topic:
banjohangout.org/topic/160125

FRAILIN posted a photo of his relatives WITH what possibly
appears to be a Farris 8-string Banjolin:




"...Here's my grandfather (with mando) and great uncle as young men
(around 1907). Uncle Cliff is holding an open-back 5-string. I've always loved
the banjo but could never explain why.

Note the bridge running completely across the head.

The neck appears to be slightly longer than a mandolin scale, so possibly it's
an "alto" size (size of a "pony" 5-string). Or maybe not... it's a bit hard to tell.

Among the instruments on the floor, there appears to be a standard roundback
mandolin -- and a slightly larger roundback mandola, to the right of it (for scale).


Best-
Ed Britt


••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 10/17/2009 13:26:17

blarneystar - Posted - 10/17/2009:  23:51:31

---

Great photo! That banjolin looks to me like the mandola-length "soprano" version that we've seen before, except that it has eight strings (like the version in his patent drawing). Farris did advertise longer banjolins with four strings. I'm not sure where that Mugwumps ad appeared, but you can find similar 1880's ads in the Yale Banner and the Hartford County Directory via a Google Books search.

The Banner ad is nearly the same as the Mugwumps one but the 1885 Directory ad features an eight-string soprano version ("The King of All Instruments"). Both include a pitch for his "quartette" or "quintette" of lead banjolin supplemented by alto, tenor and cello versions.

However, I've never seen an example, or even a picture, of a non-soprano banjolin. Farris probably would not have advertised something he hadn't actually built, but it would also seem the demand just wasn't there yet for an instrument of that type. He would have been trying to appeal to the banjo and mandolin clubs that were then popular, but they weren't buying.

By the time Schall made Stepner's banjorine in 1907, the dance bands of the day were finding a use for a louder, more cutting version of a mandolin-tuned instrument. The four-string banjorine (soon to be called a tenor banjo) coexisted with banjo mandolin in this role for a few years, displacing it by the early '20s because it had proved to be a superior instrument.

So I'm willing to give Farris the posthumous glory of being the inventor of the tenor banjo. The main point I was trying to make is that the tuning of an instrument doesn't really define it as something else if it is physically the same as a modern tenor banjo. If a banjo has four strings and a neck longer than that of a mandola but shorter than that of a plectrum banjo, it's a tenor banjo. The differences between Farris' banjolin, Schall's banjorine, the Bruno banjorine mandolin and whatever turns out to have been first CGDA-tuned tenor banjo, they are all basically the same instrument.

Don Meade

beezaboy - Posted - 10/18/2009:  06:33:42

---

Don and Ed: You gentlemen have made some excellent points
that are sincerely appreciated and your views are respected.
BUT me-thinks you are two quick to conclude that Farris or Schall
were the innovators of The Tenor Banjo merely because of its appearance.
Perhaps Schall's banjorine must be considered in Tenor Banjo lineage for the Mandolinist to Banjoist link. But, let me quote Chas McNeil (of esteemed tutor fame):
"In about the year 1900, I heard an old-time mandolinist play a banjeaurine
tuned in fifths, C,G,D,A (reading from the lowest pitched string to the highest).
He had eliminated the fifth string as being unnecessary".
Rhetorical Question: "Would this episode then define a banjeaurine as
a Tenor banjo?"
IMO the designed tuning of the instrument is essential in the definition
of the instrument and the percussive Tenor Banjo was designed CGDA
for its place in the orchestra, I think.
Furthermore, Farris' banjo (according to the ad) had 25 frets and what
appears to be a 10" head and was designed to be tuned like a violin.
Well admittedly, its a banjo; its got 4 strings; but it predates the music
that inspired the real Tenor Banjo by at least a decade probably two
decades as Ragtime hit its stride about 1905.
Ergo, Farris' creation was not the first tenor banjo and (borrowing from
Don Meade's observation) wasn't even successful in the mandolin or banjo
clubs and orchestras of the day.
No, right now I'd have to bet my money on David L. Day.
But, We'll see.



Beezaboy

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 10/18/2009 06:34:18

blarneystar - Posted - 10/18/2009:  08:43:58

---

Guitars were tuned a lot of different ways before EADGBE became standard, and there have been plenty of other tuning systems developed since then. Some people pick them with fingers, some with a plectrum, and some just strum. The instruments are are all still guitars. If it looks more or less like a tenor banjo, but it is tuned differently or not played "percussively," it's still a banjo.

beezaboy is stubborn however, and I dont' expect to convince him. I would still be interested in learning more about early Vega instruments and finding out how the viola tuning became the standard.

blarneystar - Posted - 10/18/2009:  08:49:42

---

I forgot to answer beezaboy's rhetorical question: A five-string banjeaurine with the fifth string taken is being played like a tenor banjo but has a basic physical difference. Once you make a banjeaurine with a four-string neck, you've made a tenor banjo. Farris did that in an idiosyncratic way. Schall's instrument, designed by Stepner, is the basic modern instrument in all ways but tuning.

blarneystar - Posted - 10/20/2009:  08:05:03

---

FYI - a 1912 Vega banjo catalog is available online:

acousticmusic.org/Instrument-C...html#Vega

The last page features five-string banjorines, available in five styles, but no mention yet of a four-string version.

blarneystar - Posted - 10/20/2009:  08:45:29

---

[url][acousticmusic.org/userfiles/fi...g.pdf/url]

Bacon catalog of 1912 - the "tenor banjo-mandola" is listed but not shown, on the page with the five-string banjeaurine and the banjo mandolin.

If it's called a "tenor mandola," I'd bet that they tuned it mandola style, and it would make sense if they used the banjeaurine-length neck.

So it looks like David Day was making a CGDA tenor banjo in 1912.

blarneystar - Posted - 10/20/2009:  08:46:42

---

I clearly haven't figured out how to insert a link correctly. Just drop the superfluos "/url" at the end of the link to view the page.

blarneystar - Posted - 10/20/2009:  08:58:24

---

Oops. I forgot that David Day was still with Vega at this time. So credit goes to Fred Bacon or whoever was running this part of the business (still in Vermont at the time) for him.

beezaboy - Posted - 10/20/2009:  16:41:13

---

FWIW a "Banjolin" (as envisioned by Farris in his 1885 patent
#315135) now on ebay with the extended fretboard broken off:
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...:MEWAX:IT

I read recently that the "lin" refers to the violin not the mandolin
which observation has some credibility as the mandolin was not as
popular in 1885 as it would become at the turn of the century and
perhaps Farris' creation with 22 frets as drawn coincided with
notes on the violin neck.


Beezaboy

blarneystar - Posted - 10/20/2009:  16:58:24

---

Hey Beez, did you send the right link? The page I went to had a beat up Cole banjo mandolin.

On Farris' banjolin, the patent claim (which you can find via Google search, but not Google books), is really mostly for his bridge and post, which he explains are needed because of the high tension of the strings. If he was really using mandolin (not octave mandolin) tuning, that really would be an issue. Maybe the Stepner/Schall banjorine was tuned that high as well. Did they not want, or not have the strings available, to tune it an octave lower? The impracticality of tuning a mandola-length or longer instrument that high might have been what made them go for the CGDA tuning.

beezaboy - Posted - 10/20/2009:  18:30:26

---

Don:
That Cole looked like a Banjolin to me (with the extended fretboard broken off)
You'll be interested to see Farris' patent and drawing of his patented "Banjolin". I put the patent number in just prior post. You can go to US patent office website and search that number. Its an 8 stringer in his drawing. In the book Banjos of the 19th century the authors, Bollman et al, are careful to note that Farris' 4 string was a "later" creation from what he patented and apparently they were commenting on what is described in the Farris Music Store ads.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Bacon Tenor Banjo-Mandola. I have that catalog here at home but never noticed that offering. Too bad no drawing of it but the name is very, very intriguing.
I'm just hanging out now waiting for the Library of Congress to anwer my letter about which of the Cadenza microfilm reels to order. I'm hoping to acquire the appropriate reel(s) and find an ad or article in the Cadenza that will shed more light.

Beezaboy

DanielT - Posted - 10/20/2009:  20:59:10

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

You'll be interested to see Farris' patent and drawing of his patented "Banjolin". I put the patent number in just prior post.

---

Here's a direct link to make things easier.

beezaboy - Posted - 10/21/2009:  04:32:42

---

Thank you DanielT. That does make it easier!

Beezaboy

blarneystar - Posted - 10/22/2009:  10:27:58

---

It seems that the Bacon catalog on the acousticmusic.org could note be from 1912, as listed on that site. It has no publishing date, but there are endorsement letters printed in it that are dated 1913.

Also, according to Mugwumps and other sources, Bacon in this period did some banjo building in Vermont but also sold instruments made by Vega, Lange and others.

Bruno, which I cited before, was strictly a wholesale jobber, not a manufacturer.

So we don't really know who made the GDAE-tuned "banjorine mandolin" advertised in the 1912 Bruno catalog or the (presumably) CGDA-tuned "tenor banjo-mandola" in the c. 1913 Bacon catalog. Ed Britt's speculation that these instruments were made by small-time banjo builders before they were adopted by the bigger-name companies is probably correct, but I'm still on the hunt for more info about what Lange and Vega were up to in this area c. 1910.


The unt