The pot on this Windsor Premier is identical to the one I have, including the absence of a maker’s plate on the perch pole. Only the headstock style differs.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfEK1XEXf3E&ra=m

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Originally posted by EEB

I’m looking to put together and share a visual reference guide of variations in pre-First World War Windsor maker stamps or lack of. Also as accurate as possible chronology of the first appearance of his early model ranges.

This is in part prompted by having a 5 or 6-string open-back banjo with guitar-style headstock that is clearly a Windsor and that has every detail of Windsor ‘Premier’ spec and fine quality build, and yet no stamp or plate (or holes where a plate was).

Hoping to see some photos of early Windsor marked and confirmed but unmarked(?) banjos. 

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Hello Mike. I think you've set yourself quite a difficult but worthy task. Is your Windsor the one that was discussed recently on the BHO with the screwed on fingerboard ?                                                                                                                                                      

It maybe an idea to look at the variation in hardware of different Windsor models as that clearly developed over the years. 

For example:

The Windsor at JAT that we discussed on here a couple of weeks back, wrongly attributed to Askew, seems to be of an early style, 1890's ?

It seems to me that during the early 1900's the rim hardware starts to evolve. Some of that hardware, like his Wood Rim models (Plated 1906) was to my eye influenced by the early wood rimmed Fairbanks. The early Premier's had a nut fastened rim bracket. Some early Windsor made Barnes and Mullins Perfect's had the same.  Later ones use a machine screw. 

I could probably sort some photos for you. 

The Windsor I’ve acquired is the one with the fingerboard studded with small countersunk brass screws and mentioned here on BHO. I knew that specific abuse would be a relatively easy restoration. More relevant than the screws were the beautiful thick ebony used for the fingerboard on an equally beautiful unlaminated (probably) rosewood neck which were pointers that no expense had been spared in the build. I guessed Windsor ‘Popular’ Model 1 or 2 but found that it is a Windsor ‘Premier’.

It’s now in bits, screws removed and being thoroughly examined and cleaned. It was about a 4 on the Chimney Scale of vintage banjo griminess, but not too bad. It has a (thankfully undamaged) tunnelled 5th/6th string and guitar-style headstock with 6 bone button tuning machines. I had reckoned the worst that could happen would be that the ebony board came loose when the screws were removed. But it didnt; it is as solid as a rock. The screws were either crude position markers, or more likely used to secure an earlier re-glueing of the ebony board and headstock facing. Maybe the repairer did not have a set of woodworking clamps to hand? There are only very minor other, cosmetic, repairs to make.

I recall reading that you had disregarded Windsor banjos until you had a fine quality example in your hands. Now make that two of us!

All the sound samples from this maker that I’ve heard have been on steel strung Windsors. This 'Premier' will be strung initially with nylon and later with gut. I’m very curious as to what tone emerges. My instinct is that it is fairly early c.1900-1910?

I’ve just created a Windsor group where maybe we can collate and organise Windsor date-related variations and developments:

banjohangout.org/group/windsor...archgroup

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Originally posted by EEB

The Windsor I’ve acquired is the one with the fingerboard studded with small countersunk brass screws and mentioned here on BHO. I knew that specific abuse would be a relatively easy restoration. More relevant than the screws were the beautiful thick ebony used for the fingerboard on an equally beautiful unlaminated (probably) rosewood neck which were pointers that no expense had been spared in the build. I guessed Windsor ‘Popular’ Model 1 or 2 but found that it is a Windsor ‘Premier’.

It’s now in bits, screws removed and being thoroughly examined and cleaned. It was about a 4 on the Chimney Scale of vintage banjo griminess, but not too bad. It has a (thankfully undamaged) tunnelled 5th/6th string and guitar-style headstock with 6 bone button tuning machines. I had reckoned the worst that could happen would be that the ebony board came loose when the screws were removed. But it didnt; it is as solid as a rock. The screws were either crude position markers, or more likely used to secure an earlier re-glueing of the ebony board and headstock facing. Maybe the repairer did not have a set of woodworking clamps to hand? There are only very minor other, cosmetic, repairs to make.

I recall reading that you had disregarded Windsor banjos until you had a fine quality example in your hands. Now make that two of us!

All the sound samples from this maker that I’ve heard have been on steel strung Windsors. This 'Premier' will be strung initially with nylon and later with gut. I’m very curious as to what tone emerges. My instinct is that it is fairly early c.1900-1910?

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Early top of the range Premier would have a Rosewood neck. Windsor certainly had a stock of quality timber. I thought the peghead pattern on yours a particularly attractive design. Windsor used a number of different patterns. Could you please post a photo of one of the rim brackets ? 

Attached are some photos of one of my "Wood Rim" Windsor's. This is plated 1906. Note the rounded edge heel cap which is the same as the one on your example. I think you dating is most likely correct.

This is a later Premier 3.

Steve, here is the rim hardware from my Windsor ‘Premier’.

You’re right, that my ‘Premier’ also has the rounded-front heel cap.

Would I be correct in thinking that the name and model number stamped on the peghead front (as on your 'Premier' Model 3) is a later-type marking?

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Originally posted by EEB

Steve, here is the rim hardware from my Windsor ‘Premier’.

You’re right, that my ‘Premier’ also has the rounded-front heel cap.

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Looks like 9/32ish nut. I think they increased in size later. 

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Originally posted by EEB

Would I be correct in thinking that the name and model number stamped on the peghead front (as on your 'Premier' Model 3) is a later-type marking?

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Possibly. Attached photos of a "Wood Rim" plate dated 1906. Also my Premier Deluxe undated. Deke has a Grand Solo with a similar plate dated 1903. 

Here is an Excelsior No.4. stamped on the peghead and dowel !

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Originally posted by Stephen John Prior

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Originally posted by EEB

Steve, here is the rim hardware from my Windsor ‘Premier’.

You’re right, that my ‘Premier’ also has the rounded-front heel cap.

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Looks like 9/32ish nut. I think they increased in size later. 

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A small detail difference is that my metal plate on the perch pole relating to the neck angle adjuster, is recessed into the wood pole and has a square end. All other plates that I've seen have an arrow-shaped end and sit proud of the surface.

Here is a photo:

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Originally posted by EEB

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Originally posted by Stephen John Prior

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Originally posted by EEB

Steve, here is the rim hardware from my Windsor ‘Premier’.

You’re right, that my ‘Premier’ also has the rounded-front heel cap.

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Looks like 9/32ish nut. I think they increased in size later. 

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A small detail difference is that my metal plate on the perch pole relating to the neck angle adjuster, is recessed into the wood pole and has a square end. All other plates that I've seen have an arrow-shaped end and sit proud of the surface.

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They are usually housed in. Squared one side pointed the other. On many he also veneered the perch pole which is a nice touch. I'll add photos later.

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Originally posted by Stephen John Prior

Here is an Excelsior No.4. stamped on the peghead and dowel !

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I should add that by the late 20's this had become the Premier 3.

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Originally posted by EEB

Steve, here is the rim hardware from my Windsor ‘Premier’.

You’re right, that my ‘Premier’ also has the rounded-front heel cap.

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Hooks and nuts. Top one i believe is later and is a slightly larger size. Middle silver plated 9/32. Bottom turned hook and 9/32.

Earlier rim brackets nut fastening. Later machine screw. 

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Originally posted by Stephen John Prior

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Originally posted by EEB

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Originally posted by Stephen John Prior

quote:

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Originally posted by EEB

Steve, here is the rim hardware from my Windsor ‘Premier’.

You’re right, that my ‘Premier’ also has the rounded-front heel cap.

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Looks like 9/32ish nut. I think they increased in size later. 

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A small detail difference is that my metal plate on the perch pole relating to the neck angle adjuster, is recessed into the wood pole and has a square end. All other plates that I've seen have an arrow-shaped end and sit proud of the surface.

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They are usually housed in. Squared one side pointed the other. On many he also veneered the perch pole which is a nice touch. I'll add photos later.

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Birdseye Maple veneered Walnut perch pole. Veneered to match the rim lining.