Who cares. Products are the same. RK banjos are still the best bang for your buck and outperform the competition.

All this emotion and corporate politics doesn't matter to consumers. If the quality falls off the map that will be an issue but otherwise it doesn't matter. 

If Gold Tone figures out how to make a banjo with standard spec hardware that is interchangeable with the old Gibson, they'll be on the map. Until then it's just another PacRim import. It's very surprising to me that Gold Tone hasn't switched out their hardware specs and dimensions to match the Gibson tradition, considering that they have Greg Rich and the Mastertone label. 

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Originally posted by KCJones

Who cares. Products are the same. RK banjos are still the best bang for your buck and outperform the competition.

All this emotion and corporate politics doesn't matter to consumers. If the quality falls off the map that will be an issue but otherwise it doesn't matter. 

 

If Gold Tone figures out how to make a banjo with standard spec hardware that is interchangeable with the old Gibson, they'll be on the map. Until then it's just another PacRim import. It's very surprising to me that Gold Tone hasn't switched out their hardware specs and dimensions to match the Gibson tradition, considering that they have Greg Rich and the Mastertone label. 

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Who Cares?? Really?? A man that has dedicated his life to banjo and who is one of the preeminent builders of our time gets screwed royally and you say who cares? Wow! The banjo community is not that big, but it has its share of passionate, knowledgable, and committed people and I am sure they care. Strange to be here on the hangout and say "who cares". 

If you keep screwing the few that know and can do, the quality will fall of for sure!

Ken

From Greylock to Bean Blossom (TM lawyer here.) Do you have any knowledge of the background here? I see that the RK trademark was registered in Music Link's name in 2006, and Music Link has always been the listed owner until it assigned all its interest to Shanghai AXL in 2024. The registration for THE LOAR was filed in 1998 and assigned to Music Link in 2006, then Music Link also assigned it to Shanghai AXL in 2024. Both have now been assigned to a Samoan holding company.

Thus, I don't see any indication that Greg Rich owned these trademarks. Maybe he had a deal to get royalties in exchange for an assignment? That would be kind of odd as usually he would have licensed them out in exchange for royalties but not actually assigned ownership. I'd really like to know more facts if anyone has them.

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Originally posted by tomd7

Thus, I don't see any indication that Greg Rich owned these trademarks. Maybe he had a deal to get royalties in exchange for an assignment? That would be kind of odd as usually he would have licensed them out in exchange for royalties but not actually assigned ownership. I'd really like to know more facts if anyone has them.

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I know for a fact that Greg owned the trademarks in question. Pretty sure I found that in a search long ago.

We don't know the specifics of his deal with with The Music Link, but from his Facebook post his understanding clearly seems to be The Music Link owed him $409K in "royalties," suggesting strongly he had licensed the trademark to them in exchange for their payment of royalties. He clearly does not believe he sold the trademarks to TML or that TML had any right to assign the marks to AXL.  But how they ended up with a registration if he owned them, I don't know.

He appears to be in a situation where he's in the right but it's too costly for him to assert his rights. And that's sad to hear.

Old Hickory Hey Ken, the trademark assignment agreements are available on the USPTO site. The registration for THE LOAR is Reg. No. 2296598. The registration for RECORDING KING is Reg. No. 3251046. You can see the assignment documents by clicking on the registration and going to the drop-down titled "Assignment Abstract of Title Information."

The application to register RECORDING KING was originally filed in Music Link's name (The Music Link Corporation) in 2006. It was registered to Music Link, meaning that company has always been the legal owner until the assignment in 2024.

The registration for THE LOAR was originally registered to King Banjo Co., Inc. Was that Greg Rich's company? King Banjo assigned the THE LOAR registration to Music Link in 2005.

From the available documents, Greg Rich may have developed the name, but Music Link was the one who owned the trademarks rather than Mr. Rich himself. It's really unfortunate that this happened, though. I have no idea how to get in touch with him, but I'd like to talk to him if he happens to read this on BHO.

Oh I see this has already been well covered online: banjowarehouse.com/brand/recor...-banjos/?

Very very interesting.

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Originally posted by tomd7

Oh I see this has already been well covered online: banjowarehouse.com/brand/recor...-banjos/?

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I don't see how the banjowarehouse article covers this. Here is a quote from the article:

" There has been public disagreement involving the brand’s former designer about how the trademarks were transferred when The Music Link closed. We can’t verify or adjudicate any of that, and we won’t take sides."

Sorry if I am missing something but....

Ken

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Originally posted by tomd7

Old Hickory Hey Ken, the trademark assignment agreements are available on the USPTO site. 

. . . The registration for THE LOAR was originally registered to King Banjo Co., Inc. Was that Greg Rich's company? King Banjo assigned the THE LOAR registration to Music Link in 2005.

From the available documents, Greg Rich may have developed the name, but Music Link was the one who owned the trademarks rather than Mr. Rich himself. It's really unfortunate that this happened, though. 

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Thanks for this.

I was under the impression Greg acquired and registered the abandoned Recording King trademark some time in the 90s. I'm willing to believe, from what you found, that he used the name "King Banjo Co." and maybe intended to do something with the name. But it seems that rather than develop and market a "Recording King" banjo on his own, he entered into some type of relationship with The Music Link. I believe he was an actual employee, based in California. That may be why he assigned the trademark to them. Anybody's guess. But it's clear from what he posted on Facebook, he expected ongoing payments from TML.

The Chinese made Recording King banjos first hit the market in 2005.

Greg Rich is a member here. You can look up his member profile page and write to him. He's also active on Facebook, where he posted the info the info. You can friend or follow him there, see his posts, and send him a private message. I know for a fact he's reachable.

Of course I don't know any details, but having been in Business to Business sales for 15 years, my employer frequently got "screwed" out of accounts receivable EVERY time any customer declared bankruptcy. (I am not a lawyer, this is all stuff I heard from the accountants.)

We knew for several types of customers, we had to keep them on a very short leash as far as keeping their accounts paid up, because we had been burned frequently. I do know that in American and Canadian law, for certain bankruptcies we even had to REFUND some payments if we had them on extremely short payment terms! I can't remember the details but it seemed like we sometimes had to hand back their latest 60 days in booked payments, or something like that.

Of course who knows how things work in China. Also the terms on how the reported "royalties" were required to be paid over.

In bankruptcies the usual deal is that creditors have to go to bankruptcy court and get in line to receive some fraction of what they're owed as the bankrupt company enters court protection for ongoing business, or ceases to operate. The usual expectation is "pennies on the dollar".

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Originally posted by KCJones

Who cares. Products are the same. RK banjos are still the best bang for your buck and outperform the competition.

All this emotion and corporate politics doesn't matter to consumers. If the quality falls off the map that will be an issue but otherwise it doesn't matter. 

 

If Gold Tone figures out how to make a banjo with standard spec hardware that is interchangeable with the old Gibson, they'll be on the map. Until then it's just another PacRim import. It's very surprising to me that Gold Tone hasn't switched out their hardware specs and dimensions to match the Gibson tradition, considering that they have Greg Rich and the Mastertone label. 

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Wow, Greg is an active member of this site, and done more for banjos in the last 40+ years any one on the planet. We should all care. Plus it doesnt seem youre very knowledable about the latest goldtone products. What a stupid comment to make in this group. Who cares about someone we all love and respect getting screwed ?? WE ALL DO. Sorry you chose to out yourself to the community as a complete d*ck. Hes the only reason recording king banjos are good you nitwit.