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Originally posted by jwwallace

In several years I think I'd like to get a gourd banjo with all natural everything. What do you look for in luthier? Any recommendations or things to know for maintenance or anything else?

I see even some pretty authentic banjos still come with nylgut over natural gut. How much of a pain is natural gut really?

I'd see this as being a bit of a show peice, definitely not a daily driver. Plus I think it'd be fun to talk about here.

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To date there are no known extant "original" gourd 5 string banjos.  By "gourd 5 string banjo" I mean a banjo with a neck style found on rim banjos with 4 long and one octave string, flat fingerboard, tuning pegs on a peghead connected to a gourd body. 

They do not seem to have ever existed before the 1980s when Scott Didlake and Clarke Buehling developed them, with Pete Ross developing them in parallel a little later. 

The 1980s concept was based on a single example (cobbled from an existing orphaned Boucher neck attached to a replacement gourd body) in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.  The 5 string gourd banjo known today is purely a fantasy of recent design. 

Since all 5 string gourd banjos are modern in concept and design, you are free to do whatever you want as anything you make or have made will be as "authentic" as the time you make it.

Get in touch with Noah Cline. He’s a member here.

Hi john,
I have only ever used gut strings and although they can cause problems, such as tuning fluctuations from atmospheric changes and not lasting as long as synthetic strings, I find the considerable cost of them, more than worth it to achieve contentment with my various banjos, fiddles and my guitar. I think that considering what Joel has pointed out about the authenticity of gourd banjos, synthetic strings would be a far more cost effective and appropriate choice.

Interesting. I knew those basic facts before posting this, but thanks for putting more details to it.

I hadn't really decided how many strings I would want on such an instrument, just like I haven't decided if I wanted to try to wrestle with natural gut. This is just early ideation.

I'm not completely sure I understand the reasoning for attacking the concept of authenticity here. Unless the assertion is that gourd banjos aren't banjos because we don't have proof any of them had 5 strings? If that is the case, let me know what the correct term for tenor and plectrum banjos is.

I most definitely intended no attack.
I choose to use gut and wound silk or wound gut strings of gauges that are based on a degree of historical research, to complement my nineteenth century instruments. If the gourd banjo that you are considering getting, irrespective of how many strings is has, is a relatively modern development, then my feeling is that synthetic strings would better complement it.
Certainly, any reference to 'authenticity' is likely to be controversial. I have maintained my controversial position, for 50 years; so I've been told.
What is it about the gourd banjo that appeals to you?

I am also not attacking. But these are often presented, even by people who should know better, as representing early banjos when they truly only represent the early 1980s.

I guess my point was not clear, since there is no such thing as a “authentic” gourd banjo (described as above) then there are no rules, you are perfectly free to do whatever you want in the design, construction and setup.

Perhaps checking out this book may help:
America's Instrument: The Banjo in the Nineteenth Century: Gura, Philip F., Bollman, James F.

If we're imagining what gourd banjos might have been like in the 18th and early 19th centuries, then any gourd banjo made today is bound to be of ahistorically superior quality in terms of materials and workmanship. That includes strings. What limited evidence we have points toward the use of plant fiber and/or hair-based strings. 

Short of a concern for historical accuracy (as in Ian's case), the only reason to bother with gut strings is because you prefer how they feel and sound. Generally speaking, musicians of any era opt for the best (somewhat subjective, of course) materials available. It happened when the majority of fingerstyle banjoists and classical guitarists switched over to nylon. 

Call it a banza, ngoni, akonting, ramkie, long-necked lute, and so on—

in Senegal, they also call it a banjo; that’s what they call any homemade stringed instrument there, but only there.

Now everyone can have a good laugh again: The Banjo Bands of Malawi

“Banjoes are meant for playing—I think it's the only game without rules.”

Don't be mad—I'm just playing!

Fair enough.

I'm interested in both the historical provenance but also the sound. What I have heard of gourd instruments really catches my ear.

I first want to get/build a minstrel banjo, I think I might give natural gut a try on that to see for myself on the benefits vs PITA.

Sounds wise, how close do you think gut is vs nylgut?

I have played a banjo with a set of 'true' La Bella 17 Classic strings on it and was very impressed with the sound and feel of them. So much so, I had to admit to myself, that I could find very little difference, for all practical purposes, between them and the usual, handmade strings that I use.
 

I had a basic tackhead banjo made for me in 2010, by Eric Prust. I would strongly recommend you to grab it, if you ever see one for sale. I have just had a quick look and there are none coming up, anywhere. In the mean time, there are a lot of, mainly positive, reviews of his banjos to be found on this forum, on minstrel- banjo.ning and elsewhere. Eric's instruments were designed in the style of very simple, nineteen century banjos, were ridiculously inexpensive, great fun to play and sound amazing. Contrary to my reasons for suggesting that you consider synthetic strings for a gourd banjo, I choose to have a set of gut and wound silk made for the tackhead. I have the gauges recorded somewhere, if you are interested in them.

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

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Originally posted by jwwallace

In several years I think I'd like to get a gourd banjo with all natural everything. What do you look for in luthier? Any recommendations or things to know for maintenance or anything else?

I see even some pretty authentic banjos still come with nylgut over natural gut. How much of a pain is natural gut really?

I'd see this as being a bit of a show peice, definitely not a daily driver. Plus I think it'd be fun to talk about here.

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To date there are no known extant "original" gourd 5 string banjos.  By "gourd 5 string banjo" I mean a banjo with a neck style found on rim banjos with 4 long and one octave string, flat fingerboard, tuning pegs on a peghead connected to a gourd body. 

They do not seem to have ever existed before the 1980s when Scott Didlake and Clarke Buehling developed them, with Pete Ross developing them in parallel a little later. 

The 1980s concept was based on a single example (cobbled from an existing orphaned Boucher neck attached to a replacement gourd body) in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.  The 5 string gourd banjo known today is purely a fantasy of recent design. 

Since all 5 string gourd banjos are modern in concept and design, you are free to do whatever you want as anything you make or have made will be as "authentic" as the time you make it.

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I never knew that! That is sort of amazing. Also, I got a chance to hear a Pete Ross up close a few weekends ago, one built for Brad Kolodner. I don't think I have ever heard a better gourd banjo in my life. Of course, Brad being the one playing it probably helped. 

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Originally posted by jwwallace

Fair enough.

I'm interested in both the historical provenance but also the sound. What I have heard of gourd instruments really catches my ear.

I first want to get/build a minstrel banjo, I think I might give natural gut a try on that to see for myself on the benefits vs PITA.

Sounds wise, how close do you think gut is vs nylgut?

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"Minstrel banjo" like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwpjf8hBHPA

Or perhaps like this?

https://youtu.be/2uyPZFhy8yI?si=5IM_X6fP2gJcRja1&t=480

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Originally posted by jwwallace

In several years I think I'd like to get a gourd banjo with all natural everything. What do you look for in luthier? Any recommendations or things to know for maintenance or anything else?

I see even some pretty authentic banjos still come with nylgut over natural gut. How much of a pain is natural gut .

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Which playing technique do you intend on your gourd banjo?

The reason I ask is the cost v benefit consideration. I play fingerstyle on vintage and early English banjos and love the feel and tone of correct gauge and tension gut. But it has  drawbacks; the main one being comparatively poor durability. Practicing every day, for me a gut first string will fuzz-up and eventually break in 4-6 weeks if I'm lucky. And my touch has lightened so that I'm not exerting undue stress on the strings. My 2nd string may last a little longer but will fuzz-up and break too. Gut string makers will supply singles but it's still expensive. As I still need to eat and heat my house I've come up with a compromise - I practice using rectified nylon strings and revert to gut for recording.

Rectified nylon is fine, in fact I like it a lot since I have experimented with string gauge. The textured surface is a good approximation of the feel of the gut strings I play. Nylgut doesn't approximate to gut at all, despite the hyperbole on the packaging. It seems to be a material all of its own and for me that's where it can stay: far away.
Our finger pads are super-sensitive. I'll go out on a limb and say that subtle difference in strings have a really significant impact on fingerstyle playing quite unlike the impact of string material in relation to other styles.

I've never used gut for clawhammer or stroke style. Would I bother? No. Nail contact would render all the subtleties available to a fingerstyle player completely redundant. It would be like buying the finest silk stockings and using them to carry potatoes home from the grocery store. 

You can also build your own from a kit. It’s a good place to start, and the assembly is pretty easy.

carverbanjos.com/product/gourd-banjo-kit/

https://carverbanjos.com/product/minstrel-banjo-kit-tackhead/

Pirastro have just released a new violin string called Insula. It is supposed to be a synthetic equivalent of gut. Something to look out for when they expand it to viola’s and cello’s.

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Originally posted by EEB

quote:

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Originally posted by jwwallace

In several years I think I'd like to get a gourd banjo with all natural everything. What do you look for in luthier? Any recommendations or things to know for maintenance or anything else?

I see even some pretty authentic banjos still come with nylgut over natural gut. How much of a pain is natural gut .

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Which playing technique do you intend on your gourd banjo?

The reason I ask is the cost v benefit consideration. I play fingerstyle on vintage and early English banjos and love the feel and tone of correct gauge and tension gut. But it has  drawbacks; the main one being comparatively poor durability. Practicing every day, for me a gut first string will fuzz-up and eventually break in 4-6 weeks if I'm lucky. And my touch has lightened so that I'm not exerting undue stress on the strings. My 2nd string may last a little longer but will fuzz-up and break too. Gut string makers will supply singles but it's still expensive. As I still need to eat and heat my house I've come up with a compromise - I practice using rectified nylon strings and revert to gut for recording.

Rectified nylon is fine, in fact I like it a lot since I have experimented with string gauge. The textured surface is a good approximation of the feel of the gut strings I play. Nylgut doesn't approximate to gut at all, despite the hyperbole on the packaging. It seems to be a material all of its own and for me that's where it can stay: far away.
Our finger pads are super-sensitive. I'll go out on a limb and say that subtle difference in strings have a really significant impact on fingerstyle playing quite unlike the impact of string material in relation to other styles.

I've never used gut for clawhammer or stroke style. Would I bother? No. Nail contact would render all the subtleties available to a fingerstyle player completely redundant. It would be like buying the finest silk stockings and using them to carry potatoes home from the grocery store. 

 

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That's all great information, thank you!

I'm focused exclusively on two finger currently.

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Originally posted by cevant

You can also build your own from a kit. It’s a good place to start, and the assembly is pretty easy.

carverbanjos.com/product/gourd-banjo-kit/

https://carverbanjos.com/product/minstrel-banjo-kit-tackhead/

 

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Yep, this is the direction I'm leaning pretty heavily. I like the idea of putting some craftsmanship into it.