Generally archtops have a brighter or harder sound.
However banjos are adjustable and capable of a relatively wide range of tone.
Good luck
E

There are definitely distinct differences due to the vibrational area of the rim and bearing surface shape on the rings.

They can both be setup to be brighter or darker than the other, but some tonal characteristics prevail regardless of the setup.

To my ears:
- the archtop has a primary note that is shorter in sustain and has almost a hollow, percussive sound to it. The sound has more extra tonality going on around it outside of the primary note, like overtones but not high overtones, like a fizzy sound for lack of a better description. I've found that all my archtops were generally less loud and sweeter sounding under the same setup parameters, with extra ringing that didn't necessarily serve the desired melody.

- the flathead has a primary note that's louder and fuller, and the sound seems to be composed of more primary note than the archtop. I feel like the flathead also has more high overtones and tends to ring out the chord tones longer and louder. The flathead feels more aggressive and in-your-face sounding to me. Playing close to the neck gives a sweet, bell-like tone that you don't get the same way with an archtop.

Perception regarding the two is often conflated by the fact that a lot of archtops are setup tight and bright like a Ralph Stanley banjo. That can be a really fun sound for an index lead approach.

in shotgun parlance a flat head is a number 8shot vs a number 3 shot on the arch top but they both can get an ear full of overtones that have their own merits

The short answer is "yes" there is a difference. Only YOU can decide which sound you like better. Back in the prewar days Gibson followed the market, which in tenor banjos meant Gibson's arch top (raised head) tone ring. Like their competitor Paramount. Like their competitor Epiphone. And others.

However, it's very significant that the LEADING tenor banjo choice was a full diameter flat head. Notably Vega and Bacon & Day (B&D).

The first Gibson resonator banjos were obvious copies of Paramount. To the point that it is said Paramount lawyers sent a cease & desist letter to Gibson, who ignored it.

By about 1930 Gibson for some reason made a marketing move with full diameter flat head for plectrum and regular 5 string players. Did B&D and Vega lead Gibson to this change? Just about simultaneously with this change, the early days of the Depression set in, and ALL banjo sales collapsed to near nothing by comparison to the golden days of the 1920s.

Even when Gibson renewed Mastertone banjo construction in 1954, they stuck to the old arch top tone ring, for all models. Maybe they had a metric ton of those tone rings leftover in the stock room from the 1930s? They didn't offer many flat heads until the early to mid 1960s. By about 1970 Gibson made the flat head the catalog standard, and arch tops came in a DISTANT second right up to the day Gibson closed the banjo department around 2009.

Do you know some tenor banjo players you can consult? Do you have access to a variety of tenor banjos you can try out?

Personally I play only bluegrass and old time 5 string banjo. Wouldn't know which end of a tenor to blow into.

I've owned 2 fine archtops,both Gold Star.
A '77 G11W and an early 80s blonde.
I found them to have a trebly tone,even with a loosened head.
I changed the G11 to a flathead and sold the Blondie 6 months after buying it.
There is such a nice depth of tones with a good flathead.
Low-end "rumble" and so full of tone all the way up the neck.
Hard to describe,but generally speaking the sound of an archie jumps off the top of the head where the sound of a flathead emanates from the entire pot.

There is a fuller up the neck power and tone,too with a flathead.

The way I see it-though I ask no agreement--it would also matter what you were aspiring to play with the tenor--different settings might change the mix--
I have great versions of both -They both polk fun at each other quickly-- Either one can be king when the other gets a wimpy note--neither has'' it all'' or surpasses the other to my ear--But when problems occur -- I can diagnose both --for my warped taste of the day--like I said --this is  just my view ---not everyone would see it that way

The arch-top has less mercy on bad set up --I set mine loose to get it's richness to come around --and the flat head takes right off with that great note up the neck---- but in my daily banjo time --The arch top gets way more than half of the time--It might be that I had the arch btop from day one and the flathead  came years later
with top quality instruments in great shape--the set up would matter greatly

Rule of thumb for 4-stringer playing styles:
Dixieland > archtop
Celtic > flat top
Volume will be about the same when properly set up so you won't get drowned out by the trumpets or loud bar patrons.

Thanks to you all for sharing your experiences and thoughts on the characteristics and differences between the two. I play Quebecois tunes on my B & D Silver Bell. Last week I heard a few of those tunes played on a Vega #9 set up with an archtop. I did like that immediate “punch” of each note. As far as I know Vega didn’t build archtops so the one I heard must have been modified.

I also have a Vega N tenor. Could that easily be set up with an archtop or, as I assume as I get older, I should just leave well enough alone?

Other than those two tenors that I have an Irish-playing friend has an archtop (don’t know the make) and I like how the melody “snaps” as he plays. I am sure some of that quality is his many years of experience playing compared to my very few years.

Thanks again.

Ken

A Vega N is more of an entry level instrument of the pre war years. Does it have a resonator (they were easily purchased after-market even back then)? Putting an arch top tone ring in it would more of a process than I think you need to get into. I've never heard of anyone doing it with a Vega.

One thing about arch tops, they are nearly always found in resonator banjos, at least among the well known brand names. Keep your eyes peeled for a Paramount, Epiphone or Gibson original tenor arch top that you can try out for a first hand impression of the sound. Since you already have a great B&D, you'll probably catch on real quick as to the difference in sound.

ASD= attack, sustain, decay.

In dark noisy drinking establishments or concert settings? Jamming?

The lower frequency attacks tend to talk with whales, where higher shorter sustains and faster decaying notes tend to bark over fiddles and overpower guitars and 8 stringers.
Which wrist has the need and the ears.

I think flattops are more versatile, just my experience. The arch top ODES, don’t vintage, but Dr. Corn’s Bluegrass Remedy w/longneck and Scruggs pegs never had a problem filling the Newberg Armory in Oregon!

Since OP is talking about on a tenor, I'd like to point out that setups on a tenor and a bluegrass banjo are pretty different. For BG I love a flathead, top frosted at 91. Archtops are more versatile than flattops in the different kinds of sounds you can get. Not all of those are MAX VOLUME so the bluegrass guys don't like them as much.

I've got 2 tenors (irish tuning) with tone rings, a 40 hole archtop and a ball bearing. Both like a ren type head somewhere around 85 tension, which gives them more bass end that they lose from having a smaller diameter vibrating surface than a flathead. Someday I'd like to get a flathead conversion ring to play around with for additional comparison on tenors.

When I got my 1926 TB3, it was playable, it had a very weird setup. It was down at like 80, with the head so loose the person had glued on taller feet to the 2 foot bridge to compensate, then with some felt between the tailpiece and head to dampen things. It was too bassy for me like that, but it did work.

I think I could spend the rest of my life tinkering with tenor setups. It's all so sensitive and interconnected. Change the way you rest your wrist or hold your pick and the sound changes so much you may want to go tweak something in the setup to match.

a banjo tuned in 5ths has much different possibilities in the notes that reflects into their voice in my opinion from watching the late Eddy Davis -I only play??? 3 finger --g tuning on a five

quote:

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Originally posted by Tractor1

a banjo tuned in 5ths has much different possibilities in the notes that reflects into their voice in my opinion from watching the late Eddy Davis -I only play??? 3 finger --g tuning on a five

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Even more than that. Among "Tenor" banjos (ignoring plectrums), you have 3 different tunings:

Old style CGDA... what most of the old tenors were designed for: 5ths
Irish GDAE... mostly this now: 5ths
Irish ADAE... for those slightly insane like me: 4th and 5ths
Irish GDAE tuned up a half tone, so AbEbBbF (no idea why they don't just capo...)

And then there's the fact that "tenors" I've seen can have 16,17,18,19,20 frets, with varying string tensions all along that range. 

It's quite the rabbit hole chasing various tones and setups on tenors.
 

I haven't played enough arch-tops to tell you if this is a quality they all share or just how mine is, but I do notice that it has less dynamic range than the flat tops I've played. The soft notes are louder, and the loud notes are softer. If I play it too hard the notes can kind of crap out and sound harsh. I think this makes sense though, given that the raised tone ring is effectively removing an inch or so of vibrational real-estate from the head.

Banjo manufacturers put the same necks on both their archtops and flat top banjo’s so the bridge is in the same position on both. This means that when you have an archtop the bridge is closer to the vibrating edge of the head, thus a brighter tone than a flat top. That really is the main difference between the two and of course the vibrating area of the archtop is less as well. The distance of the bridge from the edge of the vibrating head is the main factor.

Trying to explain "tone" and tonal differences to someone... well, it ain't easy.
You'll know it when you hear it.

I reckon this will apply to your own search for either an archtop or a flathead tenor.

If I recall, the majority of Gibson tenor banjos were archtops.
Plectrums, on the other hand, seemed a bit more popular with players with the flathead ring than did tenors.

I'm going to GUESS that it's not so easy to convert a Vega instrument that's got a flat head to "an archtop". More trouble than it's worth... if you can do it.

Flatheads have a more complex sound.

Thanks, again, to all for posting your thoughts and comments. It has been a good learning thread for me. And, thanks to me for posting the original question!

As soon as I heal and recover from my recent right thumb CMC surgery Ill get back to just playing my B & D and continue to enjoy the pleasure of just being able to play.

Ken

i can add or take away properties from either type --my flathead is not as metalic thus letting --the rim and head tone show more-- my has arch-top has more variables in the metallic possibilities--and that is where it's richness can be found--
I can't speak for all arch tops or flat heads or even my 2 banjos with someone else's set up

quote:

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Originally posted by Bart Veerman

Rule of thumb for 4-stringer playing styles:
Dixieland > archtop
Celtic > flat top
Volume will be about the same when properly set up so you won't get drowned out by the trumpets or loud bar patrons.

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In the Irish trad community, it is all archtop. We like punch and crack from our banjos.