There is a thread in the open area bemoaning the decline of Old Time in Arkansas. Seems there is a group of Blue Grass/New Grass people that play things like Kristopherson tunes.
This got me to wondering: what is 'Old time'? It surely can't be the melody or the lyrics since there are much older tunes with the same melody in Celtic, folk, etc. And the lyrics are even more varied since Old Joe Clark itself has hundreds of variations.
I got started in lessons because I loved the OT and folk banjo stuff so much and began hearing a 'banjo' in many, many tunes that are very modern. But I can hear a place for the banjo voice in many tunes that would not be considered 'Old Time' by many folks. But I think they could be played that way....
31 Comments |
 | Marc Nerenberg says:
5/2/2011 10:17:54 AM
Oh look! There are worms all over the table now! Somebody take that can opener away from that man!
(I think you'll find that "Old Time" is almost as hard to define as "Folk music" inasmuch as different people use those terms to mean different things, depending on context.)
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TimDavis says:
5/2/2011 10:46:35 AM
lol please post this question in clawhammer forum for maximum worm spillage. so many people there will be excited to tell you the answer. i personally don't care. music is quite difficult to label and put in boxes because all modern musicians have influences from so many genres.
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rgoad says:
5/2/2011 10:55:23 AM
I would not say this to many people, but Old Time music has a beat and soul to it that is not as easy to find in many other kinds of folk music. The old tyre has a bit of a bump in it and you can dance to it using your hips.
I think I have ancestors somewhere that sat on a ship or a dock with a bunch of guys from Africa, West Asia, and Ireland and hit a grove that lasted all night. That's what I feel.
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rgoad says:
5/2/2011 11:56:26 AM
I intentionally avoided the open forum. So many people get their panties in a twist over trivial matters of personal taste that I decided to use this group since it is self described as 'bandits' and if someone is in this group he should know what he is getting into.
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TimDavis says:
5/2/2011 2:06:45 PM
Speaking of finding an interesting place for a banjo voice. For some reason, alpine yodeling has a small subculture here in Korea and some of the folks into that scene are intertwined with the even smaller bluegrass subculture. Last week I had the opportunity to sit in on one of their yodel club meetings. And the frailing banjo just fit in wonderfully with that music. The yodel music was generally fast, happy, and bouncy. So I could come bouncing in with my banjo and fit right in place. It was fun.
Another interesting experience I had was with an Indian monk who plays harmonium. He heard me playing a sawmill tune and said that sound would fit with some of his ragas and we were able to jam a little bit with me just messing around with sawmill riffs.
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rgoad says:
5/2/2011 3:01:48 PM
Now that's what I'm talking about.
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| Marc Nerenberg says:
5/2/2011 4:28:45 PM
Old Time music at its Old-Timiest!!! I love it, Tim! (You should try to record some of that stuff and post it here when you get a chance ... us Banditos would love to hear it! Or see it on video --- even better!!)
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TimDavis says:
5/2/2011 4:40:55 PM
recording some footage with the yodel group is on my agenda since i'm in regular contact with them. the monk lives far from me, and i'm not in regular contact with him. he stopped traveling to see me because i wasn't as devoted to his meditation teaching as he had hoped. by the way when i mentioned american folk music to him he laughed at me and said it was an oxymoron because america is not old enough to have folk music. in india, old means 5,000-10,000 years ago. anything measured in the hundreds of years is recent lol.
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rgoad says:
5/2/2011 5:54:15 PM
Heh. Tell him it's the soul that's old, not the person.
I agree with Marc; you should post that stuff when you can. I noticed you use a Zoom H3. Tuck that in your pocket and take everywhere you go.
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| Marc Nerenberg says:
5/2/2011 6:17:35 PM
In India isn't folk music that stuff the Beatles did? That's not 5000 years old.
I'm confused.
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rgoad says:
5/2/2011 6:39:46 PM
Maybe the whole cycle of creation and destruction thing: the Beatles sound old now and some Indian influence would be cool and seem new. Actually, I went to a concert of Beatles music and thought some of their tunes would sound great given the OT/clawhammer treatment. My instructor played John Henry like he was playing a funk bass riff. It was awesome.
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 | pickinchik says:
5/3/2011 11:25:58 AM
Great posts fellas!
I would love to hear some of what Tim is describing. I'm up for anything.
This may be going off on a little bit of a tangent, but anything goes I think.
Talk about people getting their panties in a wad- Does it seem to you guys that there is this whole group of people on BHO who are just snobs (for lack of a better word). I experienced none of this when I first came on BHO and was playing 3-finger Scruggs style. But on the OT side it seems to be much less open IMO. Like everyone is always PM'img me telling me I have bad technique!! I think if I can get music to come out of it then it's alright. Maybe it's just a vibe I'm getting or something, but none of you guys or the other bandits are like this. But you'll see all sorts of threads in the OT boards where someone is basically telling another person they must do something this way or that. I'm just not all about that crap. It's one thing to give people tips and answer there questions, but another to just act like a know it all about this sort of music.
I don't know anything at all about Arkansas, but I can say this. The times they are a changin'. Some change is for the good (most I think), and some others see change as a bad thing. I personally love change and I don't think OT music will ever be lost.
I can't even begin to define what it is but to me it is similar to what rgoad described. I felt drawn to clawhammer the first time I heard it. I had only ever known of Scruggs style before that. I am open to all kinds of music and heck I even like some rap songs.
So now that I've rambled forever I will shut up. Thanks for getting this going rgoad.
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| Marc Nerenberg says:
5/3/2011 11:31:52 AM
Now that I've found out that the benchmark for old in India is 5,000-10,000 years, I too can be a snob and assert that NOBODY on the hangout plays REAL OLD-TIME music! In fact, since the banjo is only a few hundred years old, it has now become clear to me that Old-Time banjo music doesn't actually exist!
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| pickinchik says:
5/3/2011 11:33:05 AM
Hahaha, and that's why I love you Marc!
Have you guys heard Mary Cox mix up the banjo with drums??
Check it out -
youtube.com/watch?v=yY5i8NP-xrE
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| pickinchik says:
5/3/2011 11:36:15 AM
youtube.com/watch?v=tZvhZ9ZRhdc
This reminds me of Paul Roberts stuff. Love that sound!!
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| pickinchik says:
5/3/2011 11:39:35 AM
youtube.com/watch?v=0jl4IOSLX-o
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| pickinchik says:
5/3/2011 11:40:19 AM
There are NO RULES!!
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rgoad says:
5/3/2011 11:53:48 AM
I think the issue is that people want to play a tune so it will sound like a recording or someone they heard play it. In turn they want ME to sound that way, too. OT seems much more versatile to me than Scruggs, but I am no expert in either one. That post of 'Hobo's Lullaby" is a good example. Also, I see the Africans playing all sorts of DIFFERENT rhythms on banjo type instruments and I love it. The idea is to break out of the mold.
My instructor sits with me and talks about African and Celtic rhythms and plays them for me. He encourages me to play the beat first over and over and on each pass add, or leave out things as the tune finds its way in. The only constant is the beat, but even that does not need a sound on each interval. This way then tune is created in my mind. I expect the string to sound and 'know' it, but it may or may not have sounded. It can be on or off the 'note' but on the rhythm and it 'sounds' right. Now I can create variations for hours on tunes as simple as 'Shortenin' Bread' by experimenting with the permutations of beat and tonics. When we are done I feel like I have been to a prayer session, or meditating. I have been humbled and energised at the same time.
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rgoad says:
5/3/2011 12:07:21 PM
Mandy,
youtube.com/watch?v=AxttAghqrv...e=related
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rgoad says:
5/3/2011 12:09:55 PM
And if this does not make you want to run screaming from the house, nothing will:
youtube.com/watch?v=GvgJ9Hg7T4Q
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rgoad says:
5/3/2011 12:15:55 PM
Along the same lines is Tim Eriksen's music. He sort of starts with conventional and traditional tunes then stands on the cliff staring off into the endless space available to play. He is Batfancy on Youtube.
youtube.com/user/batfancy
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rgoad says:
5/3/2011 1:09:04 PM
Along the same lines is Tim Eriksen's music. He sort of starts with conventional and traditional tunes then stands on the cliff staring off into the endless space available to play. He is Batfancy on Youtube.
youtube.com/user/batfancy
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| pickinchik says:
5/3/2011 1:31:15 PM
Ok I haven't looked at the links yet, but I have watched Tim's stuff. OMG his Dooley where he is sitting in the grass is AMAZING!!
For anyone who hasn't seen it - youtube.com/watch?v=8cWS17eAF64
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| pickinchik says:
5/3/2011 1:35:04 PM
Great links!
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TimDavis says:
5/3/2011 3:26:18 PM
Mandy, if people are saying you have bad technique, I can only imagine what they think of my awkward right hand technique. I guess I'm doing it all wrong lol. Actually, I had never heard old time clawhammer banjo (using the common narrow definition) until a couple of years after playing. I didn't even know there was a genre of music called old time. I'm glad I didn't know about that stuff then because I'm sure it would have held me back from learning. In fact, my first reaction to hearing old time music was wondering why everyone played out of tune.
I think the snobs exist in every circle. They definitely exist in the bluegrass community too and are referred to as bluegrass nazis.
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| Marc Nerenberg says:
5/3/2011 3:32:26 PM
I think I'd been playing for about 10 years before I ever realized that there was a conventional banjo repertoire of fiddle tunes played clawhammer style...so called Old Timey music. Before that I just thought it was nice to play one of those hoedowns (as I understood them to be called) every once in a while. I had no idea that's all you were allowed to play. Of course, I still don't pay any attention to that attitude.
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rgoad says:
5/3/2011 6:07:19 PM
About the Mary Cox drum and banjo stuff. My daughter and her friend play an acoustic guitar and jimbe. I gave her a kalimba for Christmas. Can't wait for it to make an appearance.
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 | Paul T R says:
5/4/2011 9:37:40 PM
Rick, the Sparrow Quartet stuff was great, including that Mongolian instrument played clawhammer style! Imagine, Marc, OT clawhammer could be 5,000 years old!
Marc's initial remark about the old Folk Music argument pretty much sums it up. There was political correctness about what constituted "folk" (pretty much argued to support the music each debater played). Why play something note for note when it's already on the record, played by the original artist? Music evolves (although I still want to see the original preserved and played; it's good to know where you came from).
I can't say I've seen as much of the hidebound attitude in OT as I've seen coming from some BG players - just my observation, though. Actually, if you want to define OT, you're going to have a lot of variation in the music. I'd even include jug band. With BG banjo, though, the source is just Earl, which leaves less room for interpretation (until melodic came along).
And, Mandy, it sounds like you have a fantastic teacher.
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rgoad says:
5/6/2011 7:45:10 AM
This is interesting. Unfortunately there is no banjo, but I can see where it might fit in.
youtube.com/watch?v=62db5rMc2n...e=related
Banjo in this one:
youtube.com/watch?v=Jw5Knvdtut...e=related
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| pickinchik says:
5/6/2011 9:02:20 AM
Paul - I am going to take that as a compliment since I am self taught. With the help of the internet and books I think I'm doin' OK. Thanks.
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rgoad says:
5/6/2011 9:06:16 AM
Check out the collection of instruments in this.
youtube.com/watch?v=i8DjA2rZzJ...e=related
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