millwheel - Posted - 10/20/2007:  14:10:54

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Can any BH historian fill in the details about Vega's Asian interlude between the Martin era in the early 70's to the Deering era extending to the present? I have a few Asian Vega banjos and they seem to be of quite good quality, but I'd appreciate knowing who made them, where, etc. Many thanks.

Millwheel

Jeff Glasscock - Posted - 10/20/2007:  21:48:06

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I have a 67 or 68 vega pro II Im assuming its asian and not Martin era am I correct?

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/20/2007:  22:42:40

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No--Vega did not sell to Martin until 1970. According to the Mugwumps website, Martin made Vega banjos and imported some under the Vega name in the 1970s before selling the name to Galaxy Trading in 1979. U.S. made Martin-Vegas have a C.F. Martin decal. A Vega Pro II from the late 60s would be a Boston-Vega made banjo.

Bill

gottasmilealot - Posted - 10/21/2007:  00:50:15

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quote:

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U.S. made Martin-Vegas have a C.F. Martin decal

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Very true. I happened to be at the martin plant this past week and saw a few with the Martin Vega headstock. They sold off the banjo line because it was not a money maker for them. Amazing how they've done so well with guitars, but the banjo line didn't work out to their benefit.

Keith

stanger - Posted - 10/21/2007:  08:11:44

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For a short time, Martin moved the banjo production to their Swedish company, Levin. Levin was bought around the same time Martin bought Vega, and was well known here with it's line of Goya guitars, which were very popular in the 60's, especially the nylon-strung classic models. Levin didn't fit well into the Martin organization, but it had a long history of banjo production, and Martin had very little- the few Martin banjos sold in the 20's were not produced in-house.
The Levin company had been in business a long time, and had a much different construction and production philosophy. It didn't ever do things the Martin way, and there was a lot of friction before Martin finally threw in the towel and just closed Levin up and wrote it off.

Galaxy Trading didn't promote their products much. My guess is their banjos were made by Samick or another Korean manufacturer. By 1979, most of the Japanese banjo makers had already moved their manufacturing to Korea or had dropped out of the banjo business.

The Galaxy era Vegas are on par with better quality Korean stuff, like the Fenders and better Washburns and Epiphones. The Galaxy banjos are essentially Oriental Gibson copies, with very little of the distinctive and singular items that made Vega banjos what they are known for. A good Vega looks, feels, plays and sounds different from a Gibson.

Visuals are very important to the banjo market. An expensive banjo is expected to have lots of pearl work in the neck by most buyers. With Vega, the tradition was to use simple large pieces of pearl, then engrave them extensively on the higher grade models. The most prime Vegas are judged more for the quality of the engraving and carving than just how well the inlays were set- Vega always set their inlays well.

While the Galaxy #7's tend to look good in photos, when seen in real life they are nothing even close to the genuine articles.The Korean banjos use shaved pearl extensively, and the 'engraving' seen on the #7 is actually just silk screening on the pearl.

(Shaved pearl is very thin- about half the thickness or less of a piece of common paper. It can be cut with an X-Acto knife or with a die cutter, like a cookie cutter, as it's so thin it doesn't require the use of a jewler's saw to cut. This use cuts production costs down substantially, but has a much different appearance.)

The Martin-made Vegas are good banjos. They have good quality parts, and the fit, finish, and assembly is as good as any of the competition of the time. The biggest problem they had was Martin's decision to translate the fancy elements of their guitars to their best banjos and imitate their guitar product line with the banjo's names. A V45 banjo (Vega45), was intended to be imitative of the D-45 guitar- made from rosewood, abalone trim, hexagon inlays, Martin flower pot on the peghead, etc.

Martin failed to realize that guitars are guitars and banjos are banjos. The markets are simply different, and have much different tastes in decoration. The V45 cost as much as a corresponding guitar, and players wanted a banjo that didn't look like a guitar. The Vegas were rather expensive, but Martin did a good job making lesser models such as the VIP, the Bobby Joe Fenster, the Pro II, but their failure in their top models tended to trickle the disapproval downward throughout the entire line.

The 70's was a time when almost all banjo sales were directed toward the bluegrass market. Then, as it is now, the new open backed banjos' market was being covered by a few manufacturers like Ome, who had a long tradition of making open backs, and by the then-new small makers like Reiter, Wildwood, and others.

The fact is simply that more money can be made for the manufacturers in resonated banjos, because the market for them is much, much bigger. Vega has never been a strong presence in bluegrass, and Martin really never did it's homework before it bought the Vega company. If they had hired a couple of banjo guys beforehand, things may have been much different today- in truth, a Vega banjo works well for bluegrass, but neither the original Vega Co. or Martin ever did a good job of marketing banjos to the bluegrass market.
regards,
Stanger

"Sometimes I like green shade, and sometimes I like dry shade"

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Edited by - stanger on 10/21/2007 08:40:02

millwheel - Posted - 10/21/2007:  18:07:11

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Many thanks, Stanger, for the historical dissertation on the Asian branch of Vega's family tree. Keep up the good, i.e., well-informed, work!

Millwheel

millwheel - Posted - 10/21/2007:  18:08:28

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Many thanks, Stanger, for the historical dissertation on the Asian branch of Vega's family tree. Keep up the good, i.e., well-informed, work!

Millwheel

mainejohn - Posted - 10/21/2007:  19:04:57

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Mike: Wonderful information...Thanks for sharing!

Cheers,
John
Scarborough, Maine

Jeff Glasscock - Posted - 10/21/2007:  23:28:14

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Thanks for the info. I love my pro II its been played many years and never been worked on still has the original head and still sounds decent. cant beat it for the price.

Seansvoice - Posted - 10/22/2007:  12:56:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by gottasmilealot

quote:

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U.S. made Martin-Vegas have a C.F. Martin decal

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Very true. I happened to be at the martin plant this past week and saw a few with the Martin Vega headstock. They sold off the banjo line because it was not a money maker for them. Amazing how they've done so well with guitars, but the banjo line didn't work out to their benefit.

Keith

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I had always heard that Martin's main interest in Vega was to be able to sell strings...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We had NOTHING but fun...it was David Letterman with Banjos!"
- John Stewart on life in The Kingston Trio

stanger - Posted - 10/22/2007:  13:36:54

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Hi, Sean...
While I doubt that Martin bought Vega just to sell the strings, I'm sure the Martin company has now made much more money from the string sales than they did making the banjos.

Martin is a very interesting company to me. At one time or another, it has tried to make other stringed instruments- banjos, mandolins, archtop jazz guitars, electric solid body guitars, and electric basses. None have succeeded. But their flat tops have always been the standard in design, construction, details and tone.

At one time though, ca. 1918, Martin nearly went bankrupt. The only instrument that saved the company was the ukulele, and Martin ukes became as famous as their guitars. The company made ukes almost exclusively for several years at the beginning of the uke craze, which corresponded with the golden age of the banjo- 1918-1930. They were so much simpler to make that the ukulele was the only instrument turned out in large quantities during their early 20th century years.

In contrast, today's Martin company is one of the most radical in the use of alternate materials, and Martin introduced more new model lines in the past 20 years than it did in the previous 180 years!
regards,
Stanger

"Sometimes I like green shade, and sometimes I like dry shade"

Cliff. Johnston - Posted - 10/22/2007:  15:10:34

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Mike,

Many thanks for your excellent information on the Martin/Vega banjos.

You may have explained, inadvertantly, why my Alvarez Denver Belle banjo is so different from many others that I've seen. Several pros who have played it have commented with obvious surprise that it both sounds and plays better than they had expected it to. I now suspect that the reason for this is that it is a Japanese made model 4300.

In many markets aimed at the U.S. and Europe Japanese manufacturers used to traditionally "load up" a new product that they were introducing. Once they had gained access to a market (usually the next year) they would then gradualy introduce manufacturing cost-cutting parts to the product for the life-time of the model or product line. The Denver Belle that I have has a lot of well-executed inlays. Both the front and the back of the peghead have inlays. Many people have commented on both the amount and the quality of the inlays. This leads me to believe that my banjo was one of the earlier Denver Belles made in Japan. There is a definate "change" in the amount and quality of the inlays on subsequent Denver Belles made in Japan. Then a marked change occurs with those made in the late 1970's and 1980's. I strongly suspect that this is because they were being made in Korea. They definately do not look as good, in my opinion, as the Denver Belles made in Japan. May be I'm just blowing smoke, but there do appear to be progressive changes, and not always for the better, IMO.

Does anyone know when Alvarez changed manufacturing sites from Japan to Korea?

Cliff. Johnston
Alvarez Alliance
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay

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Edited by - Cliff. Johnston on 10/22/2007 15:12:53

stanger - Posted - 10/22/2007:  17:41:33

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Hi, Cliff...
I've played a couple of Denver Belles. I think they were one of the better Tubaphone banjos made in the '70s, too. Both were very nice banjos.
regards,
Stanger


"Sometimes I like green shade, and sometimes I like dry shade"

Ronnie - Posted - 10/22/2007:  22:41:05

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Jeff, hang on to that Pro II. I have been playing, almost exclusively, an Earl Scruggs model Boston Vega since I acquired it in 1965, and it is almost identical to the Pro II, and IMHO couldn't be bettered by any other banjo. I have tried other high end banjos, but keep coming back to the old Vega. Some say the Martin/Vega's were equal or better than the Boston Vega's, but I feel all REAL Vega banjos came out of Boston.

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp

www.bobbythompsonbanjo.com

daz - Posted - 10/23/2007:  06:12:43

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Ronnie wrote:

quote:

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Jeff, hang on to that Pro II. I have been playing, almost exclusively, an Earl Scruggs model Boston Vega since I acquired it in 1965

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Ronnie has an aftermarket speed neck on his tho

Daz



The earth can provide for all mans needs ,
But not for all his greeds .

Ronnie - Posted - 10/23/2007:  08:11:44

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It took a long time to acquire that "speed neck." LOL

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp

www.bobbythompsonbanjo.com

daz - Posted - 10/23/2007:  08:22:37

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yep its a ripper Ronnie

say hi to Em for me Ronnie
has she brushed her hair and done her teeth yet ?

Daz



The earth can provide for all mans needs ,
But not for all his greeds .

Ronnie - Posted - 10/23/2007:  08:27:29

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Will do! She is already at school.
Hope all is well down there. We are getting some rain in Tennessee.

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp

www.bobbythompsonbanjo.com

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Edited by - Ronnie on 10/23/2007 08:29:05

stanger - Posted - 10/23/2007:  08:40:14

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Hi, Ronnie...
I like them, too. But I have to say that the Martin Vegas are good banjos; a good friend has a Bobby Joe Fenster that's just swell. The Martin built banjos do feel different, though- they lack the deepness of the old original's necks. I also think the originals had a little better rim on them, in general, as well. Does your Scruggs have the dumbell shape holes in the tone ring?
regards,
Stanger

"Sometimes I like green shade, and sometimes I like dry shade"

Ronnie - Posted - 10/23/2007:  08:43:25

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It has slots

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp

www.bobbythompsonbanjo.com

beegee - Posted - 10/23/2007:  10:21:48

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quote:

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... They sold off the banjo line because it was not a money maker for them. Amazing how they've done so well with guitars, but the banjo line didn't work out to their benefit.

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Vega has never been seen as a Bluegrass banjo. After a slight resurgence in the Folk Boom of the 60's, they were left behind in Gibson's wake during the bluegrass boom of the 70's. It's ironic that Martin is THE name in bluegrass guitars, but couldn't get a grip on the banjo market. It was just the wrong product for their customer base. Then, when they went the import route, that was downright insulting, trying to market a cheap Masterclone under the Vega marque. It is what is known as a systems-fit problem. IMO Martin should have built a banjo similar to Fender or Ode, using quality components and their own designs. The biggest thing is that they should have stuck to what they do best: making guitars. I was also insulted when Fender went to the import line with the Leo. It cheapened the Artist & Concertone's image by inclusion.

It is indeed ironic....Gibson, the maker of the most-highly regarded bluegrass banjos, makes crappy bluegrass guitars(with a few exceptions) and Martin, the maker of the best bluegrass guitars, made crappy banjos. The Vega VIP was a really decent banjo, but never quite made the grade in bluegrass.

As a side note, I've heard many old-timers refer to Vega as "Veee-ga", not "Vay-Ga". Anybody else ever notice that?


_________________________________________
Taking my retirement a little bit all along the way.

Grifton NC

Ronnie - Posted - 10/23/2007:  10:34:10

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For the same money I could have bought a new bowtie RB-250, but I never regretted choosing the Vega. It has served me well.

Earl Scruggs pronounced it Veega. The astronomy professor at the local university calls the star in the constellation Lyra "Veega." I have an old recording where Lester Flatt introduces Earl playing the Vay-ga.

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp

www.bobbythompsonbanjo.com

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Edited by - Ronnie on 10/23/2007 10:40:04

stanger - Posted - 10/23/2007:  14:31:06

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Hi, beegee...
I've heard Veeega a lot. My bro uses the pronunciation. The star, which the banjo company was named for, is pronounced
Veg (as in beg), not Vay-ga. Americans usually don't use that short e, and go one way or the other. Aigs instead of eggs, is another example, but I've never heard them called eegs.

I dunno about your other remarks. For sure, Gibson sold lots of banjos in the 70's, and they were much improved, at least in the player's perceptions back then. It's one of those 'what if' situations. It's true that Vegas were never seen as bluegrass instruments, but the bluegrass territory back then was wide open for new and better banjos. Vega might have done very well if Martin had made an attempt to re-vitalize the brand. It's all in the past now, so we're just talking about days gone by.

It's easy to forget now just how much trouble all the acoustic manufacturers were in during the early 80's. Banjo sales were steady throughout the 70s, but dropped totally off the radar during the era of heavy metal and big-haired spandex boys. Hick wasn't hip again for a long time.

I agree that the imports were insulting to the many players who saw Vega as a real American icon. At least Gibson avoided that mistake. Fender didn't seem to take the financial hit that Martin did, but I was sorry to see the California Fenders go overseas, too. I think you're on the mark- Martin's base weren't banjo players, by and large.

regards,
Stanger

"Sometimes I like green shade, and sometimes I like dry shade"

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Edited by - stanger on 10/23/2007 15:18:29

beegee - Posted - 10/26/2007:  07:40:02

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I remember going into the pawn shops on 3rd St in Dayton when I was in high school. There were many old Gibson hanging on the wall, especially in a place I think was called Bernie's Pawn Shop. If there were any Vegas, I don't remember them. Back in the late 60's and into the 70's, when I first started going to bluegrass festivals, one rarely saw a Vega banjo. If anybody was making a copy banjo, he made a Gibson copy, because that's what everybody wanted. Repro Vega parts were non-existent. The Minalco firm had a few Vega things like the old-style hooks and nuts, but the market had already swung toward Gibson. There was an old guy around Miami who played a Vega, Tex,some-thing, and it was as good a bluegrass banjo as you would want, if you wanted a Vega. When the import companies started copying banjos, they leaned toward Gibson, not Vega. I don't think it was happenstance. I'd like to have a VIP or Vega Professional.

_________________________________________
Taking my retirement a little bit all along the way.

Grifton NC

PickaFive - Posted - 10/26/2007:  22:12:44

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I have read that Bill Nelson, the last family member that ran the Vega Company up to the 1970 sale to Martin pronounced it Veega. Earl would have heard the pronunciation from Bill who may have carried it down from the founding members Carl and Julius Nelson, or ???

PickaFive

LEUllman - Posted - 10/27/2007:  01:18:09

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Many people call the car a "Porsch," using one syllable, but that don't make it right -- it's correctly pronounced "Por-scha," because that's how Mr. Porsche says his name. (My wife's name is Lise, pronounced "Lisa" for the same reason -- that's simply how Germans pronounce the letter A.) As an amateur astronomer, I've seen arguments over star name pronounciation appear in several publications. The star is correctly pronounced "vay-ga," not "vee-ga." If the banjo is named after the star (and I always assumed it was, considering the company's logo), than it's a "Vay-ga."

"Ring, ring the banjo, I love that good old song."

olsneelock - Posted - 10/28/2007:  13:46:13

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My guess is this is an asian Vega. I've seen a few like it over the last year one eBay. Looks like a decent tubaphone replica though the flange and pot are not even close.

Anybody know for sure?

http://cgi.ebay.com/VEGA-Banjo-NOS-...cmdZViewItem

mainejohn - Posted - 10/28/2007:  13:57:20

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My guess also, and if "vintage" now applies to the 80's or early 90's, well.........

Cheers,
John
Scarborough, Maine

Ronnie - Posted - 10/28/2007:  14:32:41

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I agree. Don't recall anything like this coming out of Boston. Must confess I didn't keep up with Vega after the Martin buy-out.

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp

www.bobbythompsonbanjo.com

Greg Connor - Posted - 10/28/2007:  21:01:04

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My understanding is that Martin sold the Vega name to a Korean company in March of '79. I think the name was Galaxy. Deering bought the name somewhere around 1982. I just sold a Korean Vega to a dealer in Salt Lake. I found him by calling Deering. Deering told me that this fellow was the "Expert". The fellows name is Leo, and he owns Intermountain Guitar and Banjo.

Just like you said, the banjos are high quality. I sold mine to upgrade, and I was pleasantly surprised at how much I got for it.

Greg Connor


Check Out the tune "Banjo Hangout" You'll Find the Lyrics in the Comments

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...asp?id=19594

Greg Connor - Posted - 10/28/2007:  21:01:51

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My understanding is that Martin sold the Vega name to a Korean company in March of '79. I think the name was Galaxy. Deering bought the name somewhere around 1982. I just sold a Korean Vega to a dealer in Salt Lake. I found him by calling Deering. Deering told me that this fellow was the "Expert". The fellows name is Leo, and he owns Intermountain Guitar and Banjo.

Just like you said, the banjos are high quality. I sold mine to upgrade, and I was pleasantly surprised at how much I got for it.

Greg Connor


Check Out the tune "Banjo Hangout" You'll Find the Lyrics in the Comments

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...asp?id=19594