pweller - Posted - 06/12/2007:  16:49:50

First off, I´d like to say that I realise this should probably be in a mandolin forum, but I know a lot of you guys alternate between the tenor banjo and mandolin. I just started mandolin after six months of tenor banjo. On average, how much more force do you need to apply to the strings on a mandolin as opposed to the banjo in order to get a decent tone? Also, do you guys find your playing improves or worsens on the banjo after playing another GDAe tuned instrument?

beegee - Posted - 06/12/2007:  17:10:26

I play guitar.mandolin and banjo and fiddle. I find that on a properly set-up instrument, there is no problem with tone or anything else. If I play bass, my muscles get really tired and my fingering gets sloppy on the smaller instruments. I somehow don't consider "force" as a parameter when I play. I just adapt to the different fingerboards automagically.

_________________________________________
This too shall pass...

Grifton NC

mikeyes - Posted - 06/12/2007:  22:23:12

There are significant differences between the GDAE banjo and a mandolin. For one thing the mandolin has double courses which means that you have to use a thicker pick to get the full tone you need and that there will be a little more force needed to fret the note.

Ideally you should use the minimal pressure needed to fret a note because that allows you to be more flexible with the left hand. Mandolins require more pressure than a well set up GDAE banjo because the string tension is higher and doubled. John Carty does not play the mandolin because he injured his finger tips long ago but says that the banjo causes him no problems.

To get a decent tone from a mandolin you need a thicker pick and have to be more forceful with your right hand to get through the double course and achieve a good tone. The pick angle and wrist movement are about the same. Since 90% of tone is right hand, this is where the differences lie. If you play the mandolin the same way you play your banjo, you will emphasize the first string in the course and then the second string will not get the same energy from your pick stroke. This will result in having a less than optimal tone. Both Andy Statman and Roger made this observation in classes I have taken and if you listen while you try both ways, you will hear a difference.

On the other hand, the left hand has to cope with a significant difference in scale: 13.5 inches vs 20-23 inches in the banjo which means that fingering will be harder if you continue to use the mandolin style of fingering. If you go to a guitar style of finger assignment, you will run into a cogniitive dissonance for a while until you learn to shift from one mode to the other. This took me about thre or four months, but I had 25 years of mandolin playing under my belt by then.

As for improvement, my mandolin playing improved significantly after I took up the Irish tenor banjo. It gave me a new perspective and a lot of new tunes (coming from Bluegrass) and a much better view of the fingerboard. Mostly my tone improved as I had to pay closer attention to tone on the banjo.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.mikekeyes.com

mikeyes - Posted - 06/12/2007:  22:24:51

Mostly it is a matter of paying attention to details. The two instruments really have very little in common with the exception of tuning.

For instance, if you play a jig on a mandolin, you have to use the DUD DUD form in order to get the rhythm and lilt right. Not so true on the banjo as you can use DUDUDU and get the emphasis correct because you don't have to blast through the courses that way you do on a mandolin.

The same is true with banjo vs. bouzouki for the same reasons.

Edited by - mikeyes on 06/12/2007 22:30:09

Tim2723 - Posted - 06/13/2007:  09:26:34

While the two instruments are tuned to the same notes, that's about all they have in common. Playing the banjo has not helped me play the mandolin any more than playing the fiddle has helped me play the banjo. I do find that when I switch back to mando from tenor, I can go a lot faster because the instrument seems so small by comparision, but the techniques are still very different. My left hand can go faster, but my right hand has to remember which instrument it's playing.

To help myself along with that, I replaced the banjo's bridge with one slotted to replicate the string spacing of my mando. Did that change the tone or some other characteristics? Probably. But I'm able to make the switch much more seamlessly, and I have to switch several times a night.

Just keep pickin' at it.

diarmaid - Posted - 06/13/2007:  13:08:26

i learned the mandolin before the banjo and found it helped a lot-all the techniques and tunes i had learned on mandolin were instantly transferrable to the banjo, the bigger stretch and the looser strings on the banjo took a few minutes to get used to...and it always does when i switch between them...but i find them to be practically identical to play apart from the stretch, sound and string tension. i have to press down a good bit harder on the mandolin than the banjo but this has a lot to do with the high action on my mandolin, and i find that i get a better tone on both instruments when i press my fingers down right beside the frets, and on my mandolin i was lucky as the sweet spot was about 2.5-3.5inches in front of the bridge which is my favourite part to strike the strings on the banjo.

mikeyes - Posted - 06/13/2007:  14:01:39

I notice that Diarmaid's view of the two instruments is different from both mine and Tim2723's. I think this might reflect more of a cultural difference related to the use of mandolins. In the States, mandolin playing has been highly influence by bluegrass music, the playing of Bill Monroe in particular. As a result the use of carved top instruments, which need more energy to active and get good tone, dominates. The techniques needed to do this are quite different from the techniques that bring out the best tone in a flat top mandolin - the kind that is more common in Europe and Ireland.

Irish mandolin players tend to play the mandolin as if it is a tiny tenor banjo using the same techniques and even the same picks while NA players look at it through the eyes of three generations of bluegrass players. As a result the instruments used and the tonal qualities desired are quite different.

On the other hand, a pure North American Irish mandolin player such as Roger Landes - who could not play a bluegrass lick if his life depended on it - still uses a similar NA technique because he also has a carved top instrument. His picks are not as thick as mine (which are 1.5 mm thick) and his instrument has a sweeter Gibson A sound, but he insists on driving trhough the strings the way I learned.

Kevin Griffin, who is an excellent mandolin player in addition to being an Irish Tenor god, was not able to get the tone I like out of my F-5 and hated my thick picks. He did play wonderful music on it but you could tell that the mandolin was not to his liking.

What kind of mandolin are you playing?

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.mikekeyes.com

diarmaid - Posted - 06/13/2007:  14:51:35

i play a real old greek roundback, its got a nice soft loud tone, sorta hard to hold and it was modified before i got it to have 12 strings, (4 sets of 3) as i got used to playing it like that before i started on the banjo i found the banjo nice and easy, action wise, compared to that, i hardly get to play the mandolin much recently as its been in my girlfriends for the last 2 years. i'll let you hear it sometime on the banjo lounge if you like, as i havnt got any way of recording onto mp3 at the moment.

Tim2723 - Posted - 06/13/2007:  18:33:16

Dairmaid, I don't know about Mike, but that was not the answer I expected at all! LOL!

I guess I fit into Mike's 'American' pattern. I got started in BG and discovered Irish Folk (I'm more into the songs than the ITM dance tunes). It was natural for me to carry the arched top mandolins over into my new past time. While I've played a couple of nice flat tops (of the 'Irish' type), I've never really been comfortable with that design. I like the sound well enough, but I've never gotten used to the feel.

Just keep pickin' at it.

pweller - Posted - 06/13/2007:  18:40:05

I´m playing a Lone Star flatback. It´s a pretty cheap Mexican-made mandolin which makes me think it needs some attention as far as action and setup are concerned. However, I think the sound from it is a little more ¨full¨than f holed bluegrass mandolins.The fretboard is also a little larger than American mandolins. It is a very different instrument from the banjo but I´ve been getting the hang of it over the last 24 hours.

pweller - Posted - 06/13/2007:  19:37:58

Another thing I immediately did was run out and get thicker picks. Normally I play banjo with a Fender medium, which is about .76mm. I´m playing mando with a .97 and a 1.04, but I may have to move up to my brother´s 1.5mm bass picks. The course definitely needs to be run through the whole way. One problem I noticed was that the first string would get more of the strike. Also, the closer I pick to the fret, the thinner the tone from that fret seems to be. I suppose it´s a matter of getting used to a smaller, tighter scale.

diarmaid - Posted - 06/13/2007:  19:59:23

i dunno how you guys can do triplets with those thick plectrums! i still just my trusty 0.60mm or (0.76mm) jim dunlop nylon plectrum and sort of graze over the strings, never letting more than 5 mm deep from the tip of the plectrum strike the string. i also do on the banjo as i find it helps the plectrum move faster, and makes triplets sound less forced and more effortless.