Patriarch K - Posted - 05/28/2007:  09:11:30

I need some further advice for improving my playing a bit more. (when it comes to Irish music)
I read somewhere that the floating hand about the strings gives you totally freedom when playing the strings and you can make the best sounds and speed with it too.
I tried this technique out but i didn't like it very much actually. I did read that it may take some time to get used to it so i tried it some more but i still don't like it. The best thing for me is to use a shut hand but with my little finger on the drum of the banjo. I think the sound is much better and you get a lot of freedom between the strings too, but i don't know if it will be that easy when playing more advanced and faster jigs?

How do you play? Do all the "pros" use the floating hand or can you get pretty good with one finger down?
Seems like this guy on the bozouki plays with his little finger down and he is pretty good, but i don't know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Bxpaiznpc

Any suggestions? :)

Luke - Posted - 05/28/2007:  09:24:40

Gerry O'Connor uses the floating hand style and Barney NcKenna uses the little finger style which goes to show that both styles can be used to great effect.

If you do revert to the little finger style try using sone very fine abrasive paper on the head to allow your finger to slide across the surface more easily. You dont want to anchor the finger as in bluegrass playing.

Good luck,

Luke

Scarecrow - Posted - 05/28/2007:  09:26:15

This topic came up before, and the general view was clearly in favour of the free hand. I strongly agree. Your arm should provide anchor enough. On the other hand, it isn't a rule, and if you play differently, then good luck to you, enjoy it.

www.kencolyertrust.org
www.radiojazz.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.jugband.org/
http://www.myspace.com/jugbandman

mikeyes - Posted - 05/28/2007:  10:39:29

I think there is a misconception about "floating hand vs.anchored little finger style", neither really exist in the best players.

I looked at the youtube example and noticed that the bouzouki player was not anchoring his little finger. He has an odd pick grip that seems to involve four out of five fingers and his pinky is brushing the top, but his stroke was entirely a wrist stroke. The pinky (little finger for those of you who don't speak certain types of English) moved with his stroke which was economical and fairly consistent. He did not anchor his pinky on the top.

If you look at Gerry O'Connor (http://gerryoconnor.com/tech2.html), you will see that he places the heel of his hand on the head and approaches the instrument from the other side of the bridge. As a result he recommends that you move your elbow out in order to better align your hand/wrist/arm for consistency very much like a rock and roll guitarist (which he is/was) and he also recommends that the banjo to body angle be very specific.

If you look at the bouzouki player you will see that his body to instrument angle and total posture is quite different from GO'C which accounts for some of the apparent differences in the styles. At no time do the fingers leave the hand and at no time are either musician anchored to the instrument.

You can play reasonably well if you anchor your fingers a' la Earl Scruggs provided that you are consistent in every other way, but your tone will suffer and you will probably lose some speed. Anchoring (putting your finger on the head and keeping it there) limits what you can do. I say this because many think that the concept of anchoring is just that. Luke is implying that you slide your fingers across the head, which is what really happens 99% of the time when you see a good player on the banjo using his/her pinky for orientation.

This is not limited to Irish banjo either. I strongly recommend getting the Buddy Wachter beginner jazz banjo video in order to see how he holds his right hand. I don't agree with everything he teaches, but he shows a true "floating hand' (he calls it the "Peabody style") in which the hand is free from any orientation and the wrist sharply bent the same as a German classical mandolinist. This style completely frees the arm from the banjo for the chord style of playing but it loses the finer orientation/control needed for single string work. Using a free floating hand would be like trying to type without ever touching the keyboard (or looking at it) - you lose both accuracy and precision - and will have only speed which isn't much help. It works for chord melody because you know where all four strings are and only have to concentrate on rythmn forms and not know where the individual strings are or have to crosspick, etc.

So the right hand has to have a) orientation, b) consistency, c) accuracy, d) precision, and e) good tone. Speed comes after you establish good tone. If you anchor your fingers or hand (in the sessile meaning of "to anchor", look it up) you will have neither consistency nor good tone; If you have a completely free floating hand, you will have no accuracy, precision, tone, consistency, nor orientation. If you use your finger or hand for orientation and move that part of the hand as you go from string to string or from one section of the sweet spot to another you will maintain orientation, precision, accuracy, consistency and tone.

Most people find that they have a natural hand position with open or closed fingers which usually regulates whether or not you are pinky oriented or heel oriented. Your grip will also determine how your hand is placed. The important aspect is not whether you drag your pinky on the head or not but whether your have a good tone and whether you are consistent, accurate, and precise with that method.

You need to find what works for you, but this is not "what ever feels good, do it." You are trying to improve and if you settle on a technique that is not going to give you the opportunity to improve, you will be stuck at a level you won't like and eventually go elsewhere. A good teacher will help you discover what will work best for you (provided he or she is not married to their own style to the point that it is "my way or the highway") and try to put you on the path of the principles I mention above. There is a lot of leeway in these principles but if you look at any skill, you will see that the best always follow them no matter what the sport or endeavor.

Go back and look at several players - guitar, banjo, mandolin, etc. - and see how the best go about it. You will notice that there are some obvious differences, but most of them are not essential differences (orientation with fingers vs heel of hand, etc.) and that they are very consistent with their techniques. You will also notice that they are very efficient - just like the bouzouki player on the youtube example - and will seem to be doing very little. So much so that the extended pincky seems to be anchored there but if you look closely you will see that it is not, just that the movements are so efficient that there is little movement. This comes from a lot of practice which is essential no matter what you decide to do.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.mikekeyes.com

Edited by - mikeyes on 05/28/2007 17:20:28

Patriarch K - Posted - 05/28/2007:  11:38:01

Thank you very much for that information, Very helpfull.
I tried out some of the new techniques and i feel that it is quite comfortable so i don't really need to use the finger anymore.

However, the problem that occured was when i took out my elbow so that it was parallel to the neck, the heel of my hand leaned on the strings behind the bridge. It was like a doorhinge or something. When i lifted one thing the other went down etc...
The good thing was that it felt comfortable to my wrist, but i'm sure it's not supposed to be there so the only way i can do to remove this problem is to rotate the banjo about 45-50 degrees upwards but that looks very strange and i'm sure that's not right either.

Do you know what to do?

mikeyes - Posted - 05/28/2007:  17:19:23

I would not worry too much about getting your elbow out at this point. Try for a consistent good tone and work from there.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.mikekeyes.com

diarmaid - Posted - 05/28/2007:  23:29:34

sorry double post...read the one below.

Edited by - diarmaid on 05/28/2007 23:31:58

diarmaid - Posted - 05/28/2007:  23:30:00

hi patriarch...you could register with the banjo lounge...if im on there at the same time as you ill give you a few tips...and i'll try to help you along with whatever tunes youre learnin..all the best...diarmaid

Patriarch K - Posted - 05/29/2007:  01:06:19

mikeyes: Very well, but i thought it would be great to use the correct holding before i begin adjusting the sounds because when i change the position of my arm, the sound will be different and i will have done it for nothing? Right? :)
Thanks again for the info you gave me above!

diarmid: Where can i find this banjo lounge? Is it some kind of voice chat?

diarmaid - Posted - 05/29/2007:  13:36:54

hi Patriarch http://banjolounge.ivocalize.net/