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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/83414
Brown44012 - Posted - 05/23/2007: 13:17:40
I purchased Dwight's Diller's fifth string DVD movie on Amazon this week. I recommend to anyone who loves clawhammer. The movie has plenty of great banjo picking and an interesting story line. My wife enjoyed it as well and she isn't as gung ho about oldtimey music as I am. I don't have a financial interest in this. I just thought I would pass my opinion along.
Sam
J-Walk - Posted - 05/23/2007: 20:08:19
And I'll watch it again if wormpicker ever returns the DVD! :)
Laura Voorhis - Posted - 05/23/2007: 21:04:56
Greetings!
I really like the movie too. Wonderful picking, strong plot, and a great message, all wrapped in an engaging, family-friendly story
It is a shame the movie has not been widely distributed. I think it would be well received by the audiences at film festivals, or during music-themed programming on PBS.
Cheers!
Laura
Richard - Posted - 05/25/2007: 07:41:41
It is a great movie in it's own way - i got a lot out of watching Mr Diller play, and there are a number of great moments.
Much better watching musicians being actors than actors playing musicians.
richard
"There is nothing whatsoever that does not become easier with acquaintance" - Santideva
Latitude- Original and Traditional Folk and Blues http://www.geocities.com/bottleneck...atitude.html
oldtimer - Posted - 05/26/2007: 14:33:55
Although I have never been a big fan of Dwight Diller and his dogmatic "drill sergeant" teaching techniques, I really enjoyed this film. The "soap opera" emotional content is not my cup of tea, but that is just my taste. The main thing is that there are maybe thirty or forty good old-time tunes played, mostly fiddle tunes. Good West Virginia style fiddle, banjo, and guitar. It is a high quality professional production and I have to say that I admire Dwight for pulling off this very large accomplishment as producer, director, actor and clawhammer banjo player.
I borrowed Mike's copy to watch, but I enjoyed it enough to buy my own. It's about $15 at Amazon.
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
Edited by - oldtimer on 05/26/2007 17:26:26
RWJones1970 - Posted - 05/26/2007: 16:20:09
If you ever have spoken to or met Dwight in person you would be very surprised to realize he is a wonderful humble teacher. He only comes off "strict" because he knows how the old timers from his area played the music and he is willing to teach these methods for those who are seriously interested. Since this music reflects the life and times of his friends and family he takes it quite seriously to pass it along as genuinley as he possibly can. Be willing to not be so hard on any individual unless you have walked in that person's shoes.
oldtimer - Posted - 05/26/2007: 17:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by RWJones1970
[... He only comes off "strict" because he knows how the old timers from his area played the music and he is willing to teach these methods for those who are seriously interested. Since this music reflects the life and times of his friends and family he takes it quite seriously to pass it along as genuinley as he possibly can. Be willing to not be so hard on any individual unless you have walked in that person's shoes.
RWJones1970 - Posted - 05/26/2007: 18:20:21
With the depth of experience you have had I'm sure I could learn a thing or two from you as well. I bet your a darn good picker too!!! Peace be with you.
banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/26/2007: 19:48:35
Mr. Godsey, I do believe that Mr. Diller had both mellowed in his teaching style, and modified his playing style over the years. He does seem to be aware of having made some mistakes along the way. He also seems qutie devoted to the Hammons and their music. I have been spending time with his "Just Rhythm" DVD, and he is definatly not doing the "washboard" type movement. Indeed, he is playing and teaching a very relaxed economy of motion technique. Nothing has helped my playing more than his advice to:
First, listen to the tunes over and over, internalizing them,. Then, get the rhythm down solid. Then, forget all the thinking and just let the music play itself, "dancing on the strings" as he calls it. I'm going to have to buy this movie.
oldtimer - Posted - 05/26/2007: 19:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by RWJones1970
With the depth of experience you have had I'm sure I could learn a thing or two from you as well. I bet your a darn good picker too!!! Peace be with you.
brokenstrings - Posted - 05/26/2007: 21:23:08
Nice to have a civilized exchange like this one.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
dillerbanjo - Posted - 06/02/2007: 04:29:29
Once again, thank you for the compliments on the film, music, etc. And again, thank you. This film was put together by John Morris of Clay co, 'my brother' in the film and myself. The theme and the issues which were addressed were for West Virginians. We here in this state have been pushed, pulled, humiliated, shamed, exploited and have been treated the same as a 'third world country' since George Washington, Lord Fairfax and that crew of henchmen came in around the mid-1700s.
We here in this state are childlike and childish, and have done a really poor job of protecting ourselves. Always a state owned and operated by outsiders and continue to be moving into the future the same way probably "forever". Plus, as far as the 'politically correct police' are concerned, it is always open season on "hillbillys". [There are a couple other groups that always have an open season: 1. Christian ministers 2. the mentally ill. I have all 3 of these covered]
So, when John and I were writing the script along with Jack who was from the outside, John and I were wanting to reach West Virginians in general and the young WVa's in particular. In most parts of my homestate, different levels of shame, dispair and depression permeate the culture. From a secular point of view, we wanted something, for once, that could possibly help offset the constant barrage. Hopefully, the young just might possibly find something to be proud of to connect with. And as with everything else here, there was basically no budget.
However, at the same time, it was folks in Hollywood hooked up with one of the 3 main networks who were advertising in newspapers going into the coalfields of southern WVa wanting, without saying, poor, dumb, ignorant hilbillys and 'snakehandling' preferred. Those who dont have the brains of a downhill sledtrack. One of those 'reality' shows like 'Ozzie' to revive "The Beverly Hillbillys" was to be the target.
But because a few very critical seconds here and there were stripped out of the film, John and I have been very sad. Very sad like the loss of a loved one. This is why it is good for me to read the encouraging words from some of you.
Angry? Absolutely. I am close 61 now and it has been a life time of it. And I will not try to justify or make excuses for it. Do not like it, but looks like I will die with it. But as we 'hillbillys' for 200 years have watched our mountains of natural resources continually leaving the state and receiving only about 2%-3% of the value left behind, the continual feeling of helplessness and hopelessness is everywhere. We run neck in neck with Miss as to who is the most poor. Twelve years ago, Dr. Christine Ballengee Morris [now of Ohio State] finished and defended her dessertation on the newest rape of West Virginia: this natural resource, of which we are so rich, is cultural heritage including our music. Kind of like Caesar: "I came, I saw, I conquored"[sp] and then exported out by those who claim to be able to interpret just who we are and just how our music is to be played.
However, there is another side of that coin. Just what gives and has given the folks from the 'African-American black culture', the 'Irish' culture, the Cajun culture, 'the southern blue collar Appalachian-American culture' the ability to produce such powerful music? Music which comes up from the depths bursting out like a volcano? Dare I suggest that it just might be oppression? Supression? But that is what just might give a rifle it's power.
To publically set the record straight once again for the second time over the past 39 years
1. I have never known a greater or more powerful 'old time Appalachian musician' than Tommy Jarrell. And what about all those other great locals like Wade Ward, Fred Cockerham, Glen Smith, Albert Hash, and on and on and on. And what about one of the great young ones, Greg Hooven, that we just lost. He and i shared a room at Augusta when he was in his teens. What an explosion; I loved it. A few years ago, someone put on a CD of Riley Baugus, and within the first few beats, I said, "that's old time music!!". But that was not Central WVa music nor Hammons' music at all???
2. Back in very early '70s I got emeshed in the so called 'Round Peak' music and basically walked away from most all the OT music for 15 years.
But never stopped greatly admiring the above named. It's when those who make great CLAIMS to be 'playing it' and cannot that I have long since grown tired of.
3. About 16 years ago, I was teaching at Augusta and the rumor control was getting overloaded with all the stories about 'Diller and his teaching practices'. A good friend sent word to come on up to main area and deal with all that stuff. I asked my class of about 20 students what they thought and they basically said to leave it alone. Those telling all that stuff will almost never have been in your classes and those that do show up will fight thru all the high flying rumors. That then will sort out the wheat from the chaff and once again you can really try to impart all you have to offer.."OK"
To give an answer to my teaching methods:
I must teach my own heritage as a native son. There are almost no native sons or daughters who are really teaching. There is also almost no one in all of WVa who wants the music of their heritage. I am responsible to pass it along to those who want it. This music is EXTREMELY hard to play. It takes years of accepting the challenge and investing the disciplined COUNTER-INTUITIVE hard work to start to catch on. "Just to start to catch on takes 10 years." That is what the old WVa fiddler, Wilson Douglas, said. Lots of hard laughter also. And some WVa kinds of 'impractical jokes'. For instance, with the student's complete permission, painting his/her auto with 1" paint brushes and rustoleum paint. One was a BMW and he chose the paint.
as they say "rules are different in WVA"
DILLERBANJO
rfs - Posted - 06/02/2007: 09:37:57
A great exchange of feelings:
Dwight -- I have all of your CD's and am a great follower of your music. Please do not ever go away from your roots.
Mr. Godsey -- I also appreciate your comments and your gracious words in response to others. I have learned much from your input to this forum on all topics.
Rick
wormpicker - Posted - 06/02/2007: 09:45:06
quote:
Originally posted by J-Walk
And I'll watch it again if wormpicker ever returns the DVD! :)
Ok, ok, ok, I'll watch it today (I hope)... And for my penitence, I'll return it with my Brad Leftwich Old-TIme Fiddle DVD. Fair?wormpicker - Posted - 06/02/2007: 09:58:28
Dwight, great to have you here! Please stick around. As a beginner, I have a lot to learn from you.
...Ok, now I REALLY have to watch that DVD today! 
Paul
Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin
dillerbanjo - Posted - 06/02/2007: 14:36:30
Thanks for the invite, Wormpicker. The moment any of us thinks we're not a beginner, the "Music" will absolutely pull up and head down the road talking to itself. Here are a few things I have tried to impress on my students so they can then become themselves in their own music. The come from close 4 decades of beatin my gums together trying to figure out and teach those who really want to know the bottom line. After this, I plan to stay off for awhile.
I have stayed away from these kinds of chat places. Several years back, I signed up for 'banjo-L' and was immediately loaded up with great volumes of discussions about bridge shapes & sizes, to tune or not to tune the head, one string company vs another string company's products and on and on it flowed. It took me 72 hr to finally get unhooked. At the end of the day, I wondered if those who spend hours on that kind of stuff would be far, far better off to
1. get down to closely listening to and internalizing the old mountain folks playing their own music,
2. working on a quiet and explosive rhythm that comes from an extremely relaxed but poised body,
3. and working to become vulnerable so as to play their own music that is connected with them and their life experiences. And NOT the Hammons' or Wade Ward's or Fred Cockerham's or Tommy Jarrell's life experiences.
4. to 'teach the style of a region' is impossible; to assist the student in learning to play what is inside him/her is of upmost importance. The essence cannot be taught; it just might be caught. But left brain "studying" will never ever work. Thus the only 'tool' which I have to offer is help with learning a rhythm that is the quick snap, strong, steady, gentle sound which folks like Tommy Jarrell possessed.
This stuff is about "curtural messages"- not emotion, not to impress, not feelings. Technique will help, but right often it is used incorrectly and just gets in the way of playing the 'real music'. It is 'left-brained' and gets obsessive. Learn ten tunes really well - ie just played honestly, full of 'a celebration of life' - and that is far greater than 1000 dull, dead tunes " not comin from no where and not goin no place" as Mr Lee Hammons said. The number of tunes mean nothing; how long you have been playing means nothing. To have respect for the Old Folk's Music and not grabbing for recognition is the bottom line.
Melody counts for 2%-3% of the whole. Rhythm on the rhythm hand and then on the use of the noting hand blended together count for a total of about 97% of the whole. Your life is just as valid as my life or Tommy Jarrell's, just a different story. So it is your job to learn to play just who you are by using this music as a vehicle to do so - 'cultural messges' again. That is the point of all "homemade music" from around the world.
Is it not silly to insist you play just like me or Tommy Jarrell or whomever to be valid. If you ever happen to attend that so called "Clifftop festival" just down the road from me here in WVa, take note how virtually all the banjo contestants sound almost identical. Yep, MacDonald's hamburgers taste the same in England as here in the states. It is who we in the 'white middle/upper middle/upper class' are. When 'everyone' sounds basically the same, then the True Old 19th Century Appalachian Mountain Music is absolutely 'DEAD'. West Virginia musicians are not welcome at that festival in WVa sponsored by the state of WVa?? [BTW it's ' Apple-latch-un']
I am personally so slow and without talent or ability that it has taken from 1970 until Feb 2007 to 'figure out how to just to start to learn to play the old Central WVa fiddle'. Part of that came from folks continuing to tell me that it would be impossible for me to learn to learn the fiddle or to sing. Advice: pay no attention to such people or tell them to "shut up" or worse.
In summary:
damn all cloning;
learn and respect the old mountain people's traditions;
develope a gentle, quiet explosive 'very controlled violent' rhythm;
intuitively perceive just who you are deep down inside and honestly play that person.
There is one particular tune that most all the old WVa & some VA mountain fiddlers played: "Jimmy Johnson" or "Harvey Brown's Dream" which later became more of a semicommercial tune "John Brown's Dream". Every single one of the old fiddlers "played it differently and each played it correctly." They all played the rhythm and notes differently from each other, and almost always play the melody and rhythm differently each and every time they themselves played it.
So doesnt that free up all those trying to learn while working within the tradition itself?
Remember:
quick but not fast;
gentle but extremely controlled violence;
tension, always great tension BUT great relaxation and 'sloppy' in order to get tremendous precision.
Always contradictions; paradoxes. Btw, initially, the books will keep those in the learning stages under a great handicap and sometimes they will never learn. 'Left brain' approach. Their emphasis is on the melody = which equals 2%-3% of the whole. They cannot begin to teach the above.
Follow that and all we so called 'expert hot shot stars' will have nothing at all on you. In fact you will right often be more 'real' than us. Commercially promoted stage music is tied up with power trips; the TRUE 'Old Mountain Music' cannot fit into that realm. Again, relax and go for it. And again remember, "you are good enough". Let no other jackleg in this world take that away from you, including your own timidity and insecurities. Take the "Music" seriously, but not yourself. Laugh really bigtime hard right often. That is a large part of the "tradition" also. Again, break free - "You are good enough".
DILLERBANJO
wormpicker - Posted - 06/02/2007: 16:05:03
WOW, that's a lot of great stuff to think about. Thanks so much for sharing your insight. One thing I must quibble with, though:
"damn all cloning"
I used to be a molecular biologist, and my wife still is one. Cloning is what pays our bills! 
I hope you'll occasionally pay us more visits and keep us "non-beginners" in line. And I promise I'll watch that DVD tonight!
Paul
Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin
brokenstrings - Posted - 06/02/2007: 19:19:58
I'm just curious: do you mean I should be playing old Berlin ballads on the banjo?? Or did I misread you, DD?
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
wormpicker - Posted - 06/02/2007: 20:32:27
I just finished watching "The Fifth String." It's a beautiful movie, visually and, of course, musically. Dwight, although I was born in Philadelphia, the city of your misplaced alter-ego, you made me wish I was from West Virginia. I think you've done your state, your people, and your heritage proud.
Edit: I'm curious to hear about those few critical seconds that were stripped out of the movie. Could you fill us in?
Paul
Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin
Edited by - wormpicker on 06/02/2007 20:35:01
cashwo_wv - Posted - 06/02/2007: 23:36:16
Dwight really has done our state and our heritage proud and is a great role model for me. Jimmy Costa is another. Both men are great musicians and great West Virginian's. I'm glad I finally picked up the banjo to carry follow in these guys footsteps. I hope I can make a difference in someones life like they did for me.
BrendanD - Posted - 06/03/2007: 04:48:02
quote:Whoa! Slow down here just a minute, Dwight! I don't know where you got the message that West Virginia musicians are not welcome at Clifftop. I, for one, am always delighted to see, hear, and meet as many West Virginia musicians, young or old, as I can when I come to Clifftop! Some of my fondest memories there over the years are of folks like Melvin Wine, Wilson Douglas, and Lester McCumbers playing on the porch of the lodge with any and all players from everywhere, and there were always plenty. And one recent year when Lester got up to play in the fiddle contest, amongst a throng of fine fiddlers from many styles, it was clear to myself and to everyone present that we were listening to the real thing! Lester won first place that year, which he richly deserved with his fine, deep playing, and I heard no disagreement from anyone on that decision.
Originally posted by dillerbanjo
West Virginia musicians are not welcome at that festival in WVa sponsored by the state of WVa??
Edited by - BrendanD on 06/03/2007 04:51:42
cashwo_wv - Posted - 06/03/2007: 11:09:44
WV doesn't promote it's culture, heritage, or music very well. I've lived here all my life and the first time I ever even heard of Clifftop was last year and I went. I had a great time. What amazed me was that the people that I met kept asking me about my state and it's culture and what not. I was simply amazed. I didn't hear the ol "The toothbrush was invented in WV otherwise it would have been called a teethbrush" joke. That's not to say I didn't meet some snobs and just generally rude people but I had a good time.
The younger folks are just now starting to pick up on the music but they are all playing fiddle which is great, but not many are playing CH. There are a ton of bluegrass banjo pickers for sure.
There also seems to be a gap in generations that didn't pick it up. I'm 33 and not many at all from my age group picked anything up at all. Just the few I know that had a grandparent that played out quite a bit.
Cathy Grant is producing some wonderful fiddlers and is trying to promote our state positively. Bobby Taylor would want every WV musician there for sure. I'm also sure that Bobby runs into a lot of stupidity when dealing with things. I work for WV DHHR and I know that our state governement doesn't know what it's right hand is doing.
cashwo_wv - Posted - 06/03/2007: 16:11:38
My last comment didn't come out the way I wanted it to. WV does do alot of things to promote it's culture, heritage, and music. There are lots of festivals, arts and crafts fairs, puls other stuff. By promote I mean getting the word out about these things. It seems like they are getting better about that over the past few years.
chip arnold - Posted - 06/03/2007: 17:05:52
Well Dwight, I wish you'd feel like coming to Clifftop. Sure do. I don't play like I'm from W. Va. (I'm not) but I'd love to meet you. We have mutual friends who are at Clifftop every year.
It's true there are lots of "clones" out there but there are lots of folks picking what's inside them too. And I see lots of new interest in the other OT banjo styles these days.
You said, and I agree "intuitively perceive just who you are deep down inside and honestly play that person." To me that's the heart of all music. I laid down the banjo for several years when all I could find around me was bluegrass. When I found out there was an "Old Time Scene" out there I picked it back up and determined that I had to learn to downpick like everyone else. I gave it an honest shot but it wasn't what I had in me. I love to hear it but it's not what's inside me. I started playing 2-finger again and trust me, I had to duck and get out of the way of a lot of folks who's mission seemed to be to tell me I wasn't playing Old Time if I wasn't playing clawhammer! But what I was playing was the music that's inside me.
Not just the music but all the old ways are falling away. No state is really interested in preserving any of it if it doesn't bring in some cash. Too harsh? There are exceptions, people who work for the various states, counties and towns and really care. Thank goodness for them, but they'll tell you how hard it is to get anything meaningful past the powers that be.
So if the folks who know the old ways, musical or otherwise, don't take up the responsibility of passing things on themselves, those things will sure enough be gone. For me there has to be a spiritual connection with a thing whether it's growing sweet potatos or picking a banjo in order to pass it on. None of the things that are worth preserving exist at all exclusive of that root that's down in your gut.
Clifftop...........last year's banjo contest had a lot of folks playing similar stuff alright. But also lots of beautiful variety. And variety won the day.
Play with a plan
Chip
dillerbanjo - Posted - 06/05/2007: 17:48:17
well, i told you all i would basically keep my mouth shut. however, there have been some things dire-rected at me and will do my best to give an answer. but is hard to talk short
i think you all know exactly what i meant by cloning: selling your birthright for smoke and mirrors. promises that cannot be delivered. claims that if you do such and so, clone, counterfeit, you will be playing just like those 'round peak musicians' or whatever will come into vogue. as i said, macdonalds does a great 'job' cloning in the way i am speaking of.
for me, tommy jarrell was absolutely one of the very greatest of the old musicians AND he played tommy. he did not play wade ward who was also great. or fred cockerham who was great also. or zack pane. or tommy's father, ben. i had a student from out in vancouver, bc saying "all that round peaky stuff is being turned into a museum piece; if any should disagree, just make pilgrimage to clifftop to the banjo contest and sit thru the 100 contestants. WHEW! or go listen and watch the so called 'fiddle teachers' promise the students 'i am going to teach you exactly how tommy jarrell used his bow'. "up, down, up up, down, up, down, down, blah, blah, blah, just like classical violin training. - what hour of what day of what year did he do exactly that pattern? what about an hour later? next day? old time musicians did not do that. they played 1. rhythm 2. melody BUT ONLY TO PASS ALONG CULTURAL MESSAGES WHICH WERE ALWAYS CHANGING. ALWAYS FRESH AT THAT MOMENT EACH TIME THEY WERE GOING THRU THE MUSIC.
when you questioned my comment about west virginia musicians not being welcome at clifftop, i completely undersstand. it is all hidden in amongst the 'ra-ra- occasion- get drunk and dance all night with a bottle in your hand thinking'. sorry but you dont understand the politics of that endeavor. remember, shame, dispair, depression permeate much of this state except the the extreme eastern panhandle which is now bedroom community for baltimore and wash d.c and those imports.
clifftop is geared for you all from the outside who do not know what has and is going on. a carnival offered up on a plate. and the magazines are propagating their own adgenda. they DO NOT WANT you all. who do not understand the culture, the history, the heritage to catch on, because the outsider powerstucture have taken it and claim they can play it and can interpret it for you. that the 'hillbillies' are not able to do for themselves. that was the point of the vista workers way back when: they came here, i think sent by kennedy, to save us hillbillies from ourselves. and the best one later was john d. rockefellar IV and his carpet bag.
however it is not your fault that you do not know. all you have to go by are the rags. the irish and the cajuns have been taking back their culture. 'black is beautiful'. all 'indian jewelry' must legally be made by native americans. but
we hillbillies have allowed ourselves to be whipping boys. particularly west virginians i am talking about. it is our fault that now our heritage and culture is like our other natural resources: owned and operated by outside forces. hauled off and nothing put back. stop and really look at the so called old time music 'scene'. really look at the mag articles. look very closely. find any present day powerful and IN the tradition wva musicians who will be heavy duty competition by just playing their music. you say that our music is rich, but you dont have access to the music of the middle aged folks carrying th etradition.
there might be one or two natives here and there at clifftop; if i should go, it is mostly to see my old students old friends. not to support if by playing music. jimmy costa, who has long since forgotten more than any ten the so called great folklorists and musicologists dead or living, will generally be sitting over on the porch playing. most all the elderly old time 'west virginia' musicians are dead. lester is still living and if he got first place, it was absolutely because he was the best. as you said, he was playing the 'real thing'. but most of us, generally those really carrying on the tradition, vote with our feet. again, it is my personal students i care about or any of those who care about the traditional music. i have to be really careful how i word this, but long ago someone told me 'if i didnt have to be here, i would not be welcome.'
when cashwo made his comment about wva not promoting, he is on target. yes, i am cynical, but i have basically 30 more years age on him dealing with this, many of which working at it full time and having the politics inside and outside the state stuffed down my throat. trying to keep my mouth shut about the self promoters.
here's a challange: if any of you really want to hear some west virginia musicians who are playing some essence of the music, then come to 'Jackson's Mill' the west virginia state 4-H camp near weston wva over labor day weekend. i have been blessed with attending every year for over 30 years. there is about 125+ musicians and you will hear no clones. no imitators. no counterfeit wva musicians. all will sound different. some music you will like; some you will not like; starting at the middle, the music for you will move outward in both directions. plus the place is so large there is room for civil war reinactments, 200+'juried' craft folks, quilt shows, rendezvous encampment, large parking area w/ shuttles. no terrible, disgusting, old time music destroying contests. no stupid 'non traditional' garbage. any of the old people are shown respect; not pushed aside even if they cannot do much any more. musicians who have been professionals for years - nationally known professionals - playing with some who can in no way measure up in 'ability'. in other places, we west virginians have been basically the dog and pony show, the spotted pony to trot out to make everything 'seem legit'. not there. no 'stars' need apply. for instance, there usually will be two men from down at st albans who have literally each won the national flat picking contests quite a few times at winfield kansas. they will play with or whatever with others who cannot begin to match and no one thinks anything of it. it means nothing that i have been playing and teaching for decades. just one of the west virginia musicians. nothing more. i think you get my drift.
the other long standing festival- West Virginia State Folk Festival- that is for west virginians by west virginians is at glenville wva. othere are welcome and will be treated with respect. different from clifftop. it is usually about 3rd weekend of june. [this year it is after wednesday the 20th i think] sometime around the 20th which is when wva became a state 20 june 1863. lots of good wva traditional music, the locals block off a main street and have square dances on a wooden platform with live music by some of th greatest in the world. lots of music on large motel parking lot. they rooms are reserved from year to year by same people. only when someone dies will it be passed along to next west virginian in line. a couple evenings of concerts in auditorium at college. inexpensive admission. all musicians are to be west virginians. this has been running for over half century.
they have little micky mouse contests with ribbon awarded that are laughed about. 'so what?'. but every single music player will be sounding different. if you know the musicians, all you will need to do is to hear their playing to peg them.
so perhaps you can see why i feel as i do re the non wva festival in wva where west virginians are paid lipservice to fool youall. we are to be the 'wooden indian' that hank williams sang about.
jessy: i do not know what you meant by 'berlin ballads'. irving's? german? any ballads i would be talking about would be referring to unaccompanied mountain singing of the "Child" ballads or the similar such songs or the old style unaccompanied 'gospel hymns' usually from around the first and second great awakening. i do sing other things with the banjo, but do a very poor job of singing. in fact, that really good local bluegrass band i played bass in for 6 years thru mid 70s fired me for just wanting to sing. that looks good on my resume, eh? anyway, since i am unable to work any kind of regular job, i have had to do what i could to keep food on table and roof over head. thus, sing with banjo. however, if i really have to sing, it will be what little i can do with the 'old' songs from these mountains. i have been and am blessed to have for friends a tiny handfull of the very, very few women who sing the 'old way'. they are pointing the 'way'.
as for teaching young people, pam lund who lives near by has been teaching the locals individually for years. most who say they are playing the 'old time fiddle', for instance, pale relative to what she can do and is doing. she is banjo and guitar player and teacher also. but where are the articles about her. tim bing who is literally absolutely in the top 3 or 4 down stroke banjo players in the world if not top, where are the articles on him. how will it reflect on the 'experts- the stars' if folks like these are allowed to surface. i will not go on. just reflect on what i am pointing out. at least you have an option which you can dump in the trash. if you do not know, you cannot observe the other side of the coin.
BrendanD- hopefully you will have a bit more insight as to why those whose shoulders are carrying on the tradition just barely make a wave if they show up at george washington carver at all. you were mentioning wilson, melvin, and now lester. but just how much of a threat are they to the power structure w/ in the 'OLD TIME MUSIC SCENE'? they were/are the spotted ponies. when did you last see john morris who does come but is not pushing john morris? john is one of the greatest old time musicians anywhere. dave bing? one of the greatest. danny arthur? mike bing? dave morris? ron mullenex, rock garten, i could go on for about 15 - 20 more names that are carrying on the tradition. [sorry for talking in superlatives] why are they seldom if never there or in the mag articale. hopefully this will help you see what you are looking at and help you see just what is underneath. in my mind, for this festival to be at clifftop, close the center of WVa is a mockery. better it be in 'central park, nyc'. that would be far more appropriate for the music's sake. it's not the rank and file. those that care. those who want to learn. those who want to have access to the old music. it certainly is not at clifftop. but they do not know. it is the 'leaders' who want no competition who make the decisions. so just remember, anyone who would be a threat to the position of power, whose ability to play the traditional music is real, will get no recognition.
tell a 'true' west virginian just one time that s/he is persona non grata, just one time!, and you will not be bothered with her/him again. we are not these people who refuse to take 'no'; who to not let got of whatever they want. in recent years, i have had to really start dealing with these people who care nothing for the music. it is all about them. so as west virginians, we will NOT kiss your feet; those who are in power will not get a true west virginian to give up his/her dignity to get a job unless starvation is on the table.
again, the older west virginians [and older mountain people in rural appalachia] allowed themselves to be taken advantage of whether in music or most other areas because of being taught manners. we younger west virginians are a different breed. we may not have the power, but those with the power do not impress us. as old man jim miller said "i'll just go on down the road a'talkin to my self."
so, brendan, in reading down in what you think you see, is nothing that is there. as i said, i challenge you to give jackson's mill a try. for the real music, you will forsake clifftop forever. except for friendships formed or wanting to camp out or whatever. but certainly not if you want anything west virginian. nope. and it is really sad that folks think by coming to wva, they can find wva. as i said, to use it for that reason, better central park nyc
DILLERBANJO
brokenstrings - Posted - 06/05/2007: 19:00:31
Dwight, I meant Berlin, Germany, technically my home town. What I meant was do you mean I should be limited to the music of my own home community when I love Sephardic ballads, Scottish ballads, the music of the Appalachians & many more kinds? Or I have grossly misinterepreted what you said?
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
oldtimer - Posted - 06/05/2007: 20:20:30
DILLERBANJO wrote:
".... sorry but you dont understand the politics of that endeavor.....
clifftop is geared for you all from the outside who do not know what has and is going on. a carnival offered up on a plate. and the magazines are propagating their own adgenda. they DO NOT WANT you all. who do not understand the culture, the history, the heritage to catch on, because the outsider powerstucture have taken it and claim they can play it and can interpret it for you. that the 'hillbillies' are not able to do for themselves. that was the point of the vista workers way back when: they came here, i think sent by kennedy, to save us hillbillies from ourselves. and the best one later was john d. rockefellar IV and his carpet bag....."
___________________
Holey Cow, Dwight! It sounds to me like those Godless Clifftoppers are out to get you! And maybe Patrick Costello, too!
Never fear! We clawheads will cling together and organize an underground pocket of resistance. We will circle the whyte laydies and the lost Indians the joyful soldiers and fight this conspiracy to the last dying ember of the last dying campfire. They can chant, "down up up up down up" all they want, but their demonic chants will not prevail against the Fifth String for the Fifth String is the Pulse of life and It is the Thump that became the Foundation of the Throne of the One True Proffitt and the Frankest Proffitt will prevail if only we persist! The Fifth String! The Fifth String! Thump! Thump! Thump!
Or, I could be wrong. Maybe Clifftop is a mere decoy and the real conspiracy is at Mt. Airy or Galax. And don't forget Augusta. Augusta has never made any secret of their preference for Georgians over W. Virginians. And then there is a growing enclave in St. Paul. But, still, we will show them our M fingernail and we will prevail I think. Maybe.
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
Laura Voorhis - Posted - 06/06/2007: 01:46:44
Greetings!
Glenn - I may be a newbie here, but I've studied with Dwight and spent time in his home. Just because you disagree with him doesn't give you license to mock him.
I don't think personal attacks like this are allowed here. Moderators???
Laura
oldtimer - Posted - 06/06/2007: 09:43:59
That's not an attack, Laura. Where I come from, that is called humor. I agree with the great Sophie Tucker who said,
"F---'em if they can't take a joke!" The secret word,BTW, is Farm. Farm'em...as in cultivate'em.
That's the sort of joshing we do among a group of best friends around here. Only the overly serious take it it seriously.
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
Edited by - oldtimer on 06/06/2007 09:57:43
cashwo_wv - Posted - 06/06/2007: 10:19:31
West Virginia State Folk Festival - Glenville, WV
June 21-24, 2007
http://www.wvfolkfestival.org/
Stonewall Jackson Heritage Arts & Crafts Jubilee - Weston, WV
August 31- Sept 3, 2007
http://www.stonewallhospital.com/%7...wv/index.htm
----------------------------------------------
Chad Ashworth
Edited by - cashwo_wv on 06/06/2007 10:25:34
Lisa - Posted - 06/06/2007: 18:55:56
"but long ago someone told me 'if i didnt have to be here, i would not be welcome"
I've been to Clifftop once, possibly twice. I've got roots in West Virginia and have to say It did feel a bit strange for some reason. Funny I got the feeling it didn't represent the native musicians there also, but I did get to here Dwight Diller then and got the old time music bug in my ear. For a time the Galax oldtime musicians (so I heard), left for Clifftop since 'they were not happy with the way the fiddlers convention there was going. Maybe that was just heresay.
The labor day event sounds like a good place to be, have to venture out that way.
I also just saw the dvd, liked the singing too.
chip arnold - Posted - 06/06/2007: 19:49:57
Clifftop is what it is. And what it is, is shaped by the 3-4,000 musicians who create it. W. Va. doesn't do the creating, nor could it. W. va. has provided a place for a festival and the master's showcases, the programs put on in the little cabin, etc. do a good job of presenting some historically authentic stuff. What more can W. Va. do? Old Time festivals are peopled by pickers not listeners and when you have that many pickers together, they'll be what they are. Pickers. All kinds of pickers including some who might sound like they're from W., by God, Va. Maybe all the attendees could walk through a W. Va. Authentic Picker Filter at the gate. Those who didn't pass muster could be made to leave their instruments outside the festival grounds and assigned listener only status. They could all sit on the grass and listen with rapt attention and appreciation while the W. Va. pickers demonstrated the correct and acceptable methods. They would then have a year to practice before passing through the authenticity filter again.
Or not..............
Play with a plan
Chip
brokenstrings - Posted - 06/06/2007: 21:00:56
Do I gotta knock some heads together? Keep it friendly, folks.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
chip arnold - Posted - 06/06/2007: 21:08:24
Tongue in cheek Jessy, tongue in cheek. If you're referring to my head, I should tell you that I'm a very friendly guy. Sarcastic at times but friendly. :-) I love the great state of West Virginia and I love the Clifftp festival more than you can immagine. You goin'?
Play with a plan
Chip
brokenstrings - Posted - 06/06/2007: 21:18:02
One of these days, Chip. That is, one of these days I'm going to the festival, not "One of these days, Alice, pow! right in the kisser!"
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
pastorharry - Posted - 06/07/2007: 20:52:36
Wow....this is all very reminisicent of the Scruggs vs. Reno vs. Crowe wars that prompted me to shy away from "serious"bluegrass. Now it seems with the "great awakening "and "mighty resurgence" of Old Time music's popularity some are loosing the friendly fun aspect as well. Could it be?Good Lord where do I find my next retreat ? Dixieland? Perish the thought!!!
Isaiah 38:20 -played on banjo,guitar,dulcimer
http://www.kidspot.org/pastorharry/
tom clunie - Posted - 06/07/2007: 21:04:01
Someone at our jam last week asked what clifftop was like and a southerner banjo player characterized it as a festival dominated by "yankees and hippies," and that more "authentic" old timey could be had elsewhere. If I could, I'd still go...all those damn banjos are too much to resist. Hell bound for Chip's "West, by God, Virginia!" TC
Isaac Enloe - Posted - 06/07/2007: 21:25:09
Go to clifftop if you want to have tons of fun, play and hear great music all day and all night, and meet lots of friendly people with common interests in a beautiful spot. As far as your buddy's quip about yankees, hippies, and authenticity goes: *YAWN*
You should try to make it!
Isaac
"It's a drum!"
-Heath Curdts
"There's more to think of than y'all's thought of, ain't it?"
-Paul Sutphin
brokenstrings - Posted - 06/07/2007: 21:40:36
Hang on, Pastor Harry, don't desert the ranks.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
Stev187 - Posted - 06/07/2007: 23:06:21
Whoa! Is this a heated and facsinating thread...
Imagine what it would be like to read Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, Bix Biederbeck, and Bill Evans have this kind of discussion about jazz.
On one level, I can really connect with Dwight's argument. I'll use Bill Evans as an example. Bill changed the face of jazz piano with his impressionistic, Debussy-like harmonics. That was a good thing. Everybody loved it, tried to play that way, and made that "sound" a cliche. But a discerning ear can tell the difference between Bill's thoughtful, romantic coloring and the so-called "cocktail" sound that it started. There are some awesome banjo players that sound a lot like Tommy Jarrell. There are some who try so hard to sound like Tommy that they are not awesome at all. Those in the know vote with their feet.
On the other hand, we are all "imports" of some sort or another, including the master old-time musicians. Yes, it's true--different parts of our land and different segements of our population have been exploited, oppressed, and downtrodden. Strip mining. Mountaintop removal. Slavery. Etc.
Ours is a deeply oral tradition. For some it's deeply spiritual and connected to a specific cultural group and the land. For others, it's about dancing, drinking, and contests. For others, it's both. Music's connection to dancing and drinking should not surprise anyone.
A while back, we had a thread about how to pronounce Appalachian. Despite the fact that I am from Southeast Michigan, I say "Apple-LATCH-un." But it's a mountain range that spreads across several US dialects. Some people pronounce it differently in other parts of the country, and they are also right. Some people in other parts of the country say it Apple-LATCH-un, and they are not imposters, poseurs, or thieves. What they are doing is participating in the giant human enterprise we call CULTURE. And culture has gotten a lot more complicated since the advent of recording, broadcasting, and now the Internet.
Steve
Flint, Michigan [USA]
-----------------------------------------
JOIN THE UNION!
http://www.banjohangout.org/playersunion/
brokenstrings - Posted - 06/07/2007: 23:20:40
Ok. Let's not play the Old-Timier-than-Thou game. I wish that Dwight had not let his (probably justified) bitterness about a great many more things than music spill over into this thread and that Glenn had not responded as he did (yeah, it was funny, Glenn, but maybe not if you're the target), but let's go on from there.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
chip arnold - Posted - 06/07/2007: 23:54:32
To be a little more acurate about Clifftop, It is such a big festival and the grounds are so unique that it almost developes into neighborhoods. It is distinctly southern whether or not it's particularly W. Virginian. There are plenty of yankees and hippies. Mike Seeger, Walt Koken, Pete Peterson and others are part of the yankee contingent. ;-) There are plenty of hippies too. And Punk rockers with funny colored hair and nuts and bolts attached to their lips and eyelids. And then there's plumbers and hospice workers and bankers and sawmillers and ......... Will Keys said that in a jam the guy sitting next to you could be a banker a thief or a rouge. It doesn't matter because you're all there to share in the music. So Clifftop has a non traditional band contest as well as the traditional competitions. There are traditional purists and there are working lounge musicians who also love string band music. Whatever variety of Old Time music you DON'T like, you'll probably find it there. Whatever variety you DO like, walk 75 feet further and you'll find it too.
Clifftop is a living, breathing community of people who are as different as night and day and as alike as peas in a pod at the same time. If you're cynical and jaded by life in this world, you'll leave Clifftop with a new song in your heart. If you cried when summer camp ended when you were a kid, you'll cry when you break up your camp the last Sunday at Clifftop.
There now, ain't that almost poetical?
Play with a plan
Chip
Stev187 - Posted - 06/08/2007: 09:38:25
quote:
Originally posted by chip arnold
There now, ain't that almost poetical?
dillerbanjo - Posted - 06/08/2007: 12:10:25
You are correct, Jessy. I should have just said "As long as clifftop is in no way connected with our state of West Virginia, all is well."
Sorry for trying to explain another side to 'the singing of the praises' to help those who might want to understand
how many of us native musicians feel. Glenn's put downs are normal. Minority folks get them all the time.
dllr
DILLERBANJO
oldtimer - Posted - 06/08/2007: 15:40:48
Hi Dwight.
If by minority, you mean "hillbilly", I'm one of you. My dad grew up in Arkansas in a family of seven living in a one-room log cabin with a dirt floor . My grandfather from Kentucky played the five-string and sang in a high lonesome style. His grandfather was a trapper.
Glad to welcome a fellow hillbilly to the Hangout. I enjoyed your film.
Best regards,
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
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