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malarz - Posted - 04/12/2007: 18:56:49
I don't know anything about "stroke" style but what I've just read (in Sing Out! magazine)
about how the thumb drops down to play strings other than the 5th within the melody in the the "stroke" style makes it seems as if "melodic" clawhammer is a variant of both "stroke" and "frailing."
Any thoughts and/or links to a playing styles chronology?
Thanks to all those more knowledgeable than me.
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/12/2007: 19:06:50
Actually, contrary to popular belief, the "melodic style" has a long historical precedent. The name of the work escapes me, but there were some quite "melodic" settings being published in manuals in the 1860's by I am thinking Converse or Buckley. They compare to much of what "melodic"l players are doing nowadays.
Though I have not read the Sing Out article you cite, the use of the thumb it mentions is more likely related to something comparable to modern "drop-thumb" style banjo than full-on melodic.
R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
malarz - Posted - 04/12/2007: 21:06:20
"Full-on melodic" I like that. Could be a good title for a cd.
Quoting (without permission) from the article: "Stroke style, a predecessor of clawhammer style, is, in general, more melodic in nature than its later cousin. In stroke style, rhythm is derived from the melodic line...Whereas in clawhammer the drop thumb generally occurs within the context of the "boom-chick-a" rhythm, in stroke style the thumb is an integral part of melody creation...plays not only the fifth string , but also the second, third and fourth strings, and it is not uncommon for the thumb to play two notes in a row on the same string..."
Can you direct me to any recordings, if any are available, of full-on melodic? also, recordings of"stroke" style?
thanks.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/12/2007: 22:30:57
Melodic clawhammer is a term Ken Perlman made up in the 70s. He used it specifically as the term was quite popular in identifying the radical non-Scruggs bluegrass style called "melodic" I believer that term either came from Bill Keith or as a description of his playing.
When you get right down to it most of us old time clawhammer players use a more or less melodic style but Ken got there first and used the name for what he does - which is try to reproduce the written fiddle tune on the banjo.
A more accurate term might have been "Classical Banjo" as it is an attempt to convert "Classical guitar" arranging to downpicked banjo --- however you can see where this would cause problems since there are already two different schools of thought on what constitutes "classical Banjo" and neither one involves clawhammer. So perhaps Ken had it right.
The name does cause confusion though.
The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
brokenstrings - Posted - 04/12/2007: 22:36:42
Recordings of stroke-style (minstrel) banjo: Bob Flesher has at least two of them out, and I'll bet there are others. I have one of Bob's, and it was a revelation. It's gay and vivacious, played on original instruments, including a boomy bass banjo. My notions of minstrel banjo had been colored by the idea of the racist element, and I was prepared to dislike it. Think about it, though, a lot of our so-called folk songs are actually minstrel songs.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
vrteach - Posted - 04/12/2007: 23:28:15
As for examples of stroke-style, you can go to the "Banjo Clubhouse" and find a good number of recordings as well as some video.
http://www.milfordmusic.com/Banjo%20Audio.htm
The audio recordings are mostly organized by the original tutor on which they are based. It is much like the "sound off" section here, and the quality of the recordings varies, but it makes for interesting listening.
You may be struck by how common an uneven rhythmic structure is in many of these tunes. There are often sudden bursts of notes that are not like the sort of triplet ornamentation that one hears in modern old-time banjo. These weren't necessarly dancing tunes, most were songs. And even the dances were not necessarly the even-tempored non-crooked variety we think of (my opinion, not based on real knowledge)
It is a very interesting style to work on, and I've found that it has loosened me a bit from the tyranny of the "bum-ditty, bum-a-ditty" rhythm, even if I'm not really making an effort to be "stroke-like" in my playing.
Erich
-------
http://vrteach.freepgs.com/banjo/
stanger - Posted - 04/13/2007: 04:24:48
One of the big differences between the two is, in the stroke style, clear arpeggios are done with a dragging motion on the strings. The sound is very similar to those notes being up-picked one at a time with 3 or 4 fingers. This takes a strong fingernail and a lot of hand strength, because the finger has to be stiff and immobile as it drags- the sound is much different than the light strum commonly heard.
Another aspect to the stroke style as opposed to clawhammer is the time signature of some of the tunes in the minstrel repertiore. Besides the 4/4 and 3/4 time that's common now, some old tunes were done in 6/8. Jigs, reels, hornpipes, and others were all played, and much of the minstrel music had a distinct Scots/ Irish sound, as dancing was as important as just the music itself to the minstrels.
regards,
Stanger
janolov - Posted - 04/13/2007: 04:54:22
Still some other aspects to the stroke style as opposed to CH are:
1. Sometimes thumb is playing lead. After rolls or arpeggios it is often that thumb come on an "on-beat". There are also some tunes that are based on thumb lead (index finger still playing the down stroke on the off beat). In "bum-pa-dit-ty" this means that thumb is playing" bum" and "dit" and index is playing on "pa" and "ty".
2. Often the playing is bounced (some call it syncopating but it is wrong). In CH we often play all notes as 1/8 notes. Several minstrel tunes put more emphasis on the "bum" and "dit", that means it is played as a dotted eights note followed by a sixteenth note.
Janolov
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/13/2007: 05:28:20
Also, I think in the minstrel genre the banjo is much more of a lead instrument whereas in a lot of CH playing the idea is to create a rhythmic foil to the fiddle.
R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 04/13/2007 05:29:45
trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/13/2007: 07:30:09
Great points, all. My $0.02: although much of the basic stroke style (Minstrel) repretoire has fingering indications (I'm talking about the original sheet music or tutors here), most of the harder/fancier stuff has no markings. So, there is generally some 'open mindedness' regarding how each tune is actually played...and of course, we all make the tunes "ours". I love the 'nail glide' arpeggios but have to wear a thimble to execute them cleanly...my nails aren't up to it.
Interesting to me is that we players of the Early rep. pretty much work in a vacuum (other than those of us who discuss such things online). When we got together at the Early Banjo Conference last year, it was neat to see how many different ways a single tune could be played.
Learning the stroke style, especially the thumb lead, has changed my CH style considerably. I was playing thru a CH book (Ken Perlman's) the other night and thinking, "this section is way too complicated...if I just go with thumb lead here and here, it is much easier"...
"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have built 'em that way."
===Marc
Clawdan - Posted - 04/13/2007: 07:40:58
I'll look up the thread, but this was at least in part discussed though this version of the thread is a good continuation. BTW, the term "Melodic Clawhammer" was "made up" by Bob Carlin (we were just discussing it on our California trip) when they recorded what was to become the Melodic Clawhammer Banjo album on Kicking Mule (he's still trying to get the masters and reissue the work). It was to elude to the Melodic Bluegrass term that was becoming popular at the same time.
I'll look up that other thread and reference it here.
Actually there are two threads that might fill in some blanks here:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...PIC_ID=73573
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...PIC_ID=73417
Play nice,
Dan "Ain't no bum-diddy" Levenson
Old Time Music and Dance
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Author of Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch, A guide for the claw-less - a MelBay Publication
and Old Time Festival Tunes for Clawhammer Banjo (MelBay 20313) - 117 tunes tabbed for clawhammer banjo with standard notation and suggested chords.
Tune list at http://www.folknet.org/dan/FestTunesBJBook.htm
Edited by - Clawdan on 04/13/2007 07:45:22
malarz - Posted - 04/13/2007: 07:52:08
Thanks to all for the responses to my original post and i'm glad i started such a civilized discussion.
I'm hoping Clawdan can find the thread he's remembering so i can read further (when I really should be practicing!) It was a combination of reading the articles about akonting and running (er, walking deliberately) through the exercises in Dan's books which got me thinking about using the thumb for more of the melody. I find now that pesky thumb is finding its way into many tunes i thought I already knew how to play without its help.
I first came across the term "melodic clawhammer" on the cover of Ken Perlman's book which I bought years ago at a used book store. I guess I didn't know why an approach to learning a musical instrument would be anything other than "melodic."
Thankfully, I'm proving you're never too old to learn (or teach a dog new tricks).
janolov - Posted - 04/13/2007: 08:09:29
I think the term "melodic" in connection with clawhammer gives rise to a lot of questions and misunderstandings. I think that more than 90 % of the clawhammer music is melodic, in the meaning that it emphasises the melody line. The melody can be emphasised in different ways. Ken Perlman seems to have a claim for the term "melodic clawhammer", which means that the banjo plays the fiddle part note by note. It is only a small part of the clawhammer music that is melodic a la Perlman, most of the clawhammer music is based on that the banjo shall play the banjo part, not the fiddle part.
Janolov
haiku - Posted - 04/13/2007: 08:11:50
quote:
Originally posted by vrteach
As for examples of stroke-style, you can go to the "Banjo Clubhouse" and find a good number of recordings as well as some video.
http://www.milfordmusic.com/Banjo%20Audio.htm
Erich
Well Eric, I do not thank you for this link: my "to do" and "to learn" lists just doubled now
.
Well, thanks, that's a great link!
-----
http://www.myspace.com/hobohaiku
Clawdan - Posted - 04/13/2007: 08:31:54
Some simple facts:
1 - The term "Melodic Clawhammer" was first used on the album by the same name which had several banjo players including Ken, Bob and Hank Sapoznik and the term was coined by Bob Carlin - by Bob's recollection, Ken was not part of that discussion (*what to name it) but obviously must have agreed so we can at least say it was a group decision. (Yes, Ken does use the term often and made the most of it - deservedly so).
2 - What is now called Clawhammer and Scruggs were once Stroke and Arpegiated banjo styles.
3 - Melodic is following the melody of the tune; Ornamental is anything beyond the tune. (Harvard Dictionary of Music).
4:
Play nice,
Dan "Ain't no bum-diddy" Levenson
Old Time Music and Dance
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Author of Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch, A guide for the claw-less - a MelBay Publication
and Old Time Festival Tunes for Clawhammer Banjo (MelBay 20313) - 117 tunes tabbed for clawhammer banjo with standard notation and suggested chords.
Tune list at http://www.folknet.org/dan/FestTunesBJBook.htm
trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/14/2007: 18:34:20
quote:
Originally posted by Clawdan
Some simple facts:
3 - Melodic is following the melody of the tune; Ornamental is anything beyond the tune. (Harvard Dictionary of Music).
Oh Jeez. Now I have to start calling it "Ornamental" style? I think I'll call my style "Ornery" and leave it at that.
Converse (1865) called the two styles "Guitar Style" (for what is now termed fingerstyle or "three finger", although sometimes four are called for) and "Banjo Style" (now called stroke style).
I have always considered "Melodic" clawhammer to be an attempt to follow the fiddler note-for-note...but also more generically a method of finding those notes out of scales rather than out of chord positions (not that the two aren't intertwined).
"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have built 'em that way."
===Marc
malarz - Posted - 04/15/2007: 08:23:46
After reading through this discussion and the threads that Clawdan indicated I've come to realize that my playing falls under the heading "melostrokamentfrail." (Yup, that's why I wear the helmet.)
And that's my last word on the subject.
Clawdan - Posted - 04/15/2007: 18:27:01
Always best to play with protection. 
BOY I hate the name game, don't you. I'm jus sayin I play clawhammer banjo. Hope that's okay. We'll let the linguists figure out the rest. Having a great time out here. It's just too much fun. Look! IT is MOOSE AND SQUIRREL! Ah, jus squirrel..... (heads and gravy da da da da...)
Play nice,
Dan "Ain't no bum-diddy" Levenson
Old Time Music and Dance
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Author of Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch, A guide for the claw-less - a MelBay Publication
and Old Time Festival Tunes for Clawhammer Banjo (MelBay 20313) - 117 tunes tabbed for clawhammer banjo with standard notation and suggested chords.
Tune list at http://www.folknet.org/dan/FestTunesBJBook.htm
Edited by - Clawdan on 04/15/2007 18:28:32
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/15/2007: 19:52:40
If Carlin "made up" the term, Ken made it his own while both Bob and Hank later claimed that they were NOT melodic players despite the lp. That it was a title and style Kicking Mule stuck them with when they made the recording. Ken never denied his involvement in melodic and in fact has made it his life's work creating a real and recognized style from it.
The album itself may have some historic value, but as music it is pretty stiff. I listened to it just a year or so ago and my evaluation was about the same as it was when I first go it > it sounds like a "how to" album.
As I recall there was indeed a tab book to go with it as there were with a lot of KM lps. The tunes are all played at a stately pace and the noting is all clear and clean, just the way one would hope to have it for a sound sheet. A lot of the Kicking Mule catalog was more pedagogical than entertaining and that particular record was one of the dryest.
For me, that record had a lot to do with my moving on, or returning to the non-melodic banjo camp. That, and time spent trading techniques with other melodic style players in the 70s and realising that they really were determined to play every single solitary fiddle note -- just without the bow --- or the drones or the sustain, or the excitement.
My "contribution" in those days was that I can consistantly, accurately, and without losing the rhythm, hit the same string I'm frailing with my thumb - a technique Ken coveted but eventually declared impossible for him and most non-flamenco trained clawhammerers. Technically this ability always allowed me to get around some of the clumsier fingerings necessary for most melodic arrangements. Still, it was this ever widening search for ways around the clumsy fingerings that made it clearer and clearer to me that I was not interested in taking up the classical guitar again - especially not on a downpicked banjo. I wanted to get back to what the banjo was about - a drum with strings on it. I had started with stuff like "Old Plank Road" "George Booker" and "The Pateroller". I went back to stuff like that and have never lost a moment of sleep thinking about the Melodic player I might have been. I've heard similar tales form a number of others who also were melodic back in the 70s.
Oddly enough my wife and I just played our red hot "St Anne's Reel" this afternoon. No one however, could possible contradance to the full fledged freightliner out of air screaming down a twisted mountain road breakdown we play these days. I doubt we play anything at a faster pace and I'm not sure it would even be recognizable in New England the way we do it now.
The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
