Lonesome Steve - Posted - 04/09/2007:  19:31:43

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I’ve been playing clawhammer for about five months now. For the first four months I felt like I was making good progress, playing faster, playing more complex tunes, getting the drop thumb thing working a little, rhythm was getting pretty solid, playing fairly cleanly. Then a little over a month ago I had the fretboard of my banjer scooped so I could play over the neck (I had been playing with my right hand over the head to that point). Immediately my playing took a major step backward, almost like I was starting over again. I was less accurate, rhythm suffered, and I couldn’t play as fast. I expected a step backward with the change in right hand position, but not such a big step. Now after a month of playing exclusively over the neck, I still don’t think I’m back to where I was when I made the switch. Is this typical? Am I doing something wrong?

I suspect maybe I had become dependant on using the head of the banjo as a reference point for my thumb, sort momentarily resting it there before every thumb stroke. Now my thumb has to find the fifth string on it’s own with no reference point.

I really like the tone I get playing over the neck, but I’m starting to get frustrated with how sloppy my playing has become. Should I just shut up and keep practicing?

J-Walk - Posted - 04/09/2007:  19:49:00

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I can definitely relate.

After I attended Dan Levenson's Tucson workshop I decided that I needed to play over the neck. It was a major setback. It's been nearly two months, and I'm still not 100% comfortable -- far from it. But my progress is noticeable and it really does sound better for some tunes. Other tunes, I think, benefit from a bit of head thumping and I can get a lot more volume when thumping. My goal is to be able to do it either way.

I recently got a new banjo with a much deeper scoop. And that helped me a lot (although I'm sure having a scoop isn't even necessary to play over the neck).

The problem I'm having is unintentional harmonics. When I hit a string at the 19th fret position, I usually don't want to hear the harmonic. I'm also working on clucking, but most of the time I don't want to cluck individual strings. I guess I'll figure it out eventually.

oldtimeterry - Posted - 04/09/2007:  19:50:04

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Wow steve, thanks for bringing this up. I had the same problem. At first it was tough playing over the neck, but as I got used to it I became addicted. The strings were easier to hit and produced a more mellow sound. Before long I found myself unable to return to the head. I didn't seem to have the force or direction in my hand to hit the strings cleanly. Since then I have given up on the neck and returned entirely to playing over the head in order to build up the fundamentals.

I have also been playing approximately as long as you so the controlled variables we share make this post even more interesting.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/09/2007:  20:55:45

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I generally don't play over the neck. But I can. I like to hit the banjo strings hard, and over the neck they have less resistance because you're farther from the bridge. So it can be uncomfortable to play with the same force you might use a few inches further toward the bridge. You might try heavier strings to provide more resistance. As to the 19th-fret harmonics, that's where I try to play so I get the overtones. But that's a matter of taste.

Bill

rinemb - Posted - 04/09/2007:  21:02:34

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Don't feel alone. I have been playing several years and still have to force myself to venture over the neck. As Bill said, my attack is fairly strong too, and I have to gentle-up to work over the neck. I have taken lessons from Dan as well. With his hand position (I am sure he hit you with) it is much easier to play over the neck. That is the hand is not knocking on the banjo like knocking on a door. It is turned so that the back of the hand is more visible to you..to me that gives me a gentler attack. Brad

May not the incidence of success, nor the pretense of retirement-Lessen the want of enlightenment.

nycplucker - Posted - 04/09/2007:  21:44:30

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when i made my transition to playing over the scoop it took a few weeks to get comfortable. try running through the tunes you are comfortable with at about three quarters of your usual tempo. work on an even consistent tone. the speed will come naturally after your comfortable in the new position.

most of all enjoy yourself. no need to rush it.

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Edited by - nycplucker on 04/10/2007 19:01:57

eickmewg - Posted - 04/09/2007:  22:03:54

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Your banjo position makes a big difference in being comfortable over the scoop. I had trouble playing around the 19th fret until Dan Levenson got me to ditch the banjo strap and get the pot on my (!!!!!left -NOT!!!!!) thigh tucked under my arm and with the neck almost horizontal. That put my right hand naturally over the scoop and, presto, "cluck" city. Bill

'05 Lee Rose Hill 12", #165
'06 Romero 13" custom walnut, #0684

Edited for prior stupid statement: Make that the right thigh! I would have to have long arms to make it work the way I first stated it!

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Edited by - eickmewg on 04/10/2007 06:36:21

Stev187 - Posted - 04/09/2007:  23:27:50

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I am always making bass metaphors, because I played that instrument for so long. As an electric bassist, I played the strings in a variety of locations between the bridge and the neck. This was always to get a different tone.

When you play over the scoop (or the 15th-17th fret) you are striking the string at a particular harmonic node. Many of us like this sound (I jammed for about 3 hours this afternoon, and my hand was in that position the whole time). But there are many more tones you can get from your banjo. In my opinion, a versatile player can move around to get the kind of tone he/she wants. I consider myself fairly versatile, and I camped out over the scoop all day today.

But certain tunes sound great over the head or other places in between. Some of us thump the head, some don't.

The issue raised was losing techniqe or struggling when you change position. Yes, that can happen. If you like that sound, work on getting it right in the new geography. If you don't like the sound, spend time where you get the sound you want.

What I haven't noticed on the banjo is an effect that was very pronounced on the electric bass. One of my many bass heroes, Jaco Pastorius, played a two finger pizzacato about 1 centimeter away from the bridge. Jaco played with lightning speed, and he needed the "snap back" from the tight strings to play so quickly. It simply isn't possible to go that fast close to the neck with those long, large strings. Near the bridge, your fingers are forced off the strings--the increased tension actually propels your fingers away so you can move on to the next note. Jaco also played with the bridge pickup turned all the way up and the neck pickup all the way down, which contributed to his fast, nasal tone on the Fender Jazz Bass.

On the banjo, I do not notice a significant difference in string tension between the over-the-neck and over-the-head positions. The strings are not as tight over the neck, but that makes little difference in my attack. Your milage may vary.

Now, Jaco played like that all the time. That was his sound. But most working bassists use a variety of tones in a variety of contexts. That's how I viewed the banjo when I learned it in the string band context.

So what am I saying? Work to get the over-the-neck sound, because it's worth it. But my personal opinion is that you should play on the part of the neck that fits the tune.

Steve
Flint, Michigan [USA]

-----------------------------------------
JOIN THE UNION!
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vano - Posted - 04/09/2007:  23:56:09

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who says you have to play over the neck and how would this make a banjo sound good

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/10/2007:  01:36:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by vano

who says you have to play over the neck and how would this make a banjo sound good

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I don't think it's a matter of sounding "good." It's a matter of what sound you prefer. Many players who want to emulate the sound a traditional player would have produced on the inexpensive banjos most of them had in the late 19th/early 20th centureis want that "plunky" sound you get playing over the neck. I'm not of that school. Generally I play over the head -- my thumb catching the 5th maybe half an inch from the tension hoop. I like the rhythm created when my hand hits the head. The over-the-neck players generally want to avoid that. It's a matter of taste--not "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong."

Bill

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/10/2007:  04:36:47

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The problem is indeed one of the thumb losing a reference point and leaving you in position trouble. Playing over the neck is harder than playing over the head as you have the ability to get your thumb quite a ways out of position and need to have it better under control. The closeness of the head limits how far your thumb can go below the string and you are used to having that limitiation
I suggest you spend your normal practice time playing over the head so you can continue your progress on tunes etc.
I also suggest a separate short practice time for simply learing how to work over the neck. Don't bother fretting - in fact you might want to damp the strings - and take it very very slowly. Watch the hand come down and as your frail finger hits the 1st or 2nd string bring your thumb to rest on the 5th. By doing this very slowly you can watch and make sure the thumb isn't either glancing off the string or going under it. Now snap the thumb forward, which will not only sound the string but also make your hand want to come back up into frail position again. Until you have this motion solid don't try to do anything more with it. Even when you do have it solid don't worry about playing tunes up there yet. Take the time to build the motion into one that is smooth at all speeds before you put music to it.
Don't bother with Bum did-dy - just do did-dy did-dy over and over.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/10/2007:  05:56:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by eickmewg

Your banjo position makes a big difference in being comfortable over the scoop. I had trouble playing around the 19th fret until Dan Levenson got me to ditch the banjo strap and get the pot on my left thigh tucked under my arm and with the neck almost horizontal. That put my right hand naturally over the scoop and, presto, "cluck" city. Bill

'05 Lee Rose Hill 12", #165
'06 Romero 13" custom walnut, #0684

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I think the above quote says a lot and is a big part of it.
The bottom line is you do have to dvelop a feel for it- and that just takes time.
Possibly, being able to see you play might reveal some insights that would result in more concrete suggestions. As a starting point, if you have any videos of players who use the righthand position you are trying to attain, just start by imitating them as much as possible.

Dan Levenson does quite a bit of traveling. You might contact him to see if and when he will be in your area.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
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Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

dbrooks - Posted - 04/10/2007:  08:30:31

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I have had several lessons with Dan and play mostly over the neck now. In fact, I have to remind myself to move back over the head when I need a little more volume or punch.

Eickmewg hit on one of the main ingredients: getting the banjo on your right knee with the neck level (or nearly so). This brings the junction of the neck and the pot closer to you and the right hand is not reaching to get up over the neck.

Dan also uses a rather light touch and a very efficient right-hand motion in his playing. I have tried to emulate as well to pick up a little speed and consistency. As Bill Rogers noted, you can play harder over the head, and that approach probably does not work so well over the neck.

And as with many of the topics we discuss, it's not really a choice of either-or. Learning to use both increases your options. Steve, if you really like the sound you're getting, then it's worth continuing to work on.

David

Tackhead - Posted - 04/10/2007:  08:47:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

The problem is indeed one of the thumb losing a reference point and leaving you in position trouble. Playing over the neck is harder than playing over the head as you have the ability to get your thumb quite a ways out of position and need to have it better under control. <snip>

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I think you've got it right with your comment. Instrument position and economy of motion in the right hand seem to be key for me. I still tend to thwack the ednge of the neck a bit with my thumb, though. Bob Carlin is another player to emulate. If you can, check out his Round Peak DVD. He wastes no motion in either hand.

~John

John Flynn
Tallahassee, FL

Roy Smith - Posted - 04/10/2007:  08:48:18

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I've had much the same problem with losing accuracy when playing over the neck. For me, the main problem seemed to be that as I moved away from the bridge, the strings gave me less recoil than I was used to. I had to adapt my right hand motion to compensate for it, and it took time and repetition to do this. I finally got sick of the problem and practiced exclusively over the scoop for a couple months until it became comfortable. The good news was that after I got used to playing over the scoop, playing over the head was a breeze -- fast, accurate, conveying a feeling (or illusion) of high competence.

To me, playing over the scoop is like hiking with a heavy pack. You don't notice it after a while, but when you take the thing off you feel like you're flying.

Roy

Lonesome Steve - Posted - 04/10/2007:  13:49:35

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Thanks to everyone for the great words of encouragement and advice. It's nice to know it's not just me.

I totally agree with the comments about the importance of versatility and how your right hand position should be dictated by the music and the tone that best suits it. I've been focussing on playing over the scoop lately in an attempt to get as comfortable playing there as I am playing over the head, but it's not the only way to play. I've still got quite a ways to go, but thanks to the encouragement and tips I've received here, I'm feeling reenergized and ready to keep working at it.

Roy, these words are right on the mark:

quote:

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Originally posted by Roy Smith

The good news was that after I got used to playing over the scoop, playing over the head was a breeze -- fast, accurate, conveying a feeling (or illusion) of high competence.

To me, playing over the scoop is like hiking with a heavy pack. You don't notice it after a while, but when you take the thing off you feel like you're flying.

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I spent about an hour last night just playing some of the tunes that I know well, with my right hand back in it's old comfortable position over the head. I was amazed by how much my playing has improved over the last month. I had no idea because that was literally the first time in a month that I really played over the head. Like taking that pack off after a ten mile hike.

I think I'll take OldWoodChuck's advice and mix it up more in my practice time. Work on tunes with my right hand over the head, and then spend some time focussing on right-hand technique over the scoop.

Steve